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Myst on the Apple II [message #391412] Mon, 02 March 2020 18:18 Go to next message
Vince Weaver is currently offline  Vince Weaver
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Registered: April 2013
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Hello,

I've put together another Apple II demake. This one is of the 1990s game
MYST.

It's not the full game, but you can poke around the main island. As always
it was just a proof-of-concept that got a bit out of hand.

This is in lo-res graphics again. Some of the scenes don't look half bad,
but for a game like this you really need better resolution. The problem
is with hi-res you quickly run out of disk space.

Anyway video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkcUh0nvs6c

More info and disk image here:
http://www.deater.net/weave/vmwprod/mist/

Vince
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391414 is a reply to message #391412] Mon, 02 March 2020 18:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Du Hast

On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 6:18:14 PM UTC-5, vi...@pianoman.cluster.toy wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've put together another Apple II demake. This one is of the 1990s game
> MYST.
>
> It's not the full game, but you can poke around the main island. As always
> it was just a proof-of-concept that got a bit out of hand.
>
> This is in lo-res graphics again. Some of the scenes don't look half bad,
> but for a game like this you really need better resolution. The problem
> is with hi-res you quickly run out of disk space.
>
> Anyway video here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkcUh0nvs6c
>
> More info and disk image here:
> http://www.deater.net/weave/vmwprod/mist/
>
> Vince

Neat! I read that Myst was basically a Hypercard stack, and then maybe made into a more full fledged program. I wonder, given the larger storage of hard drives, or an HFS volume on a //gs, with Hypercard and SHR screens Myst couldn't be made for the //gs. Maybe not the video part....
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391417 is a reply to message #391414] Mon, 02 March 2020 19:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince Weaver is currently offline  Vince Weaver
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Registered: April 2013
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On 2020-03-02, Du Hast <duhast6377@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, March 2, 2020 at 6:18:14 PM UTC-5,
> vi...@pianoman.cluster.toy wrote: Neat! I read that Myst was
> basically a Hypercard stack, and then maybe made into a more full
> fledged program. I wonder, given the larger storage of hard drives,
> or an HFS volume on a //gs, with Hypercard and SHR screens Myst
> couldn't be made for the //gs. Maybe not the video part....

you could probably get by without most of the videos.

the ambient sounds are nice though, I guess it'd be fairly easy to
keep those on the IIgs but as you can imagine a bit more difficult on
the earlier IIs.

Vince
Myst on the Apple II [message #391418 is a reply to message #391412] Mon, 02 March 2020 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
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Looks fantastic! Especially that HGR logo! Guess that's another HGR and DHGR project to add to the TODO pile. A great exercise in perceptual lossy compression! :-)

I did a quick google search but couldn't find any info. about reverse engineering / map formats.

How did you "rip" the graphics that were used as a reference for the GR screens? Manual screen grabs on PC?

I see that Myst: Masterpiece Edition (1999 re-release) is available on Steam for $6. Interestingly enough it is compatible with ScummVM!

Michael
Myst on the Apple II [message #391423 is a reply to message #391412] Mon, 02 March 2020 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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If there is any interest, If you send me the jpeg captures, i’d send you back each screen in dbl hi-res with LZ4 compression. I got it down to about 8-9 blocks per screen.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391424 is a reply to message #391418] Tue, 03 March 2020 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince Weaver is currently offline  Vince Weaver
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On 2020-03-03, Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev' <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I did a quick google search but couldn't find any info. about reverse
> engineering / map formats.

yes, I just wrote the gameplay from scratch based on playing the game, I didn't
reverse-engineer anything. My implementation is really simple and is more
or less OK for walking around but would need some work if you really
wanted to implement the full game.

> How did you "rip" the graphics that were used as a reference for the
> GR screens? Manual screen grabs on PC?

yes, manual screengrab from the Masterpiece Edition under scummvm.

the game window is almost exactly 560x336 which is 80x48 times 7 which made
things relatively easy.

I think it'd be possible to have a reasonable version of the game for a
IIe with 128k. You'd have to leave out the movie cutscenes and a lot of
the ambient sound effects though.

Vince
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391425 is a reply to message #391423] Tue, 03 March 2020 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince Weaver is currently offline  Vince Weaver
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On 2020-03-03, I am Rob <gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
> If there is any interest, If you send me the jpeg captures, i’d send
> you back each screen in dbl hi-res with LZ4 compression. I got it
> down to about 8-9 blocks per screen.

what size block? DOS33, ProDOS or something else?

My code is RLE encoding the GR graphics which does a reasonable job. On
other projects I've found RLE ends up better than LZ4 for GR graphics but
I haven't tested with this particular dataset.

While I think it would be cool to try a DHGR version I unfortunately don't
really have time to work on that right now. I managed to throw together
this demo over the weekend because I have a huge supply of lo-res code
from other projects, but I don't really have a lot of HGR/DHGR experience.
Just drawing a mouse cursor on top of an HGR image seems like it would be
a huge undertaking.

Vince
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391431 is a reply to message #391425] Tue, 03 March 2020 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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what size block? DOS33, ProDOS or something else?

Prodos blocks of 512 bytes. The dbl hi-res pics compressed to 8-9 blocks from 33 blocks normal size and the hi-res to 4-5 blocks from 17 blocks normal size


> My code is RLE encoding the GR graphics which does a reasonable job. On other projects I've found RLE ends up better than LZ4 for GR graphics but I haven't tested with this particular dataset.

LZ4 includes RLE encoding, so RLE by itself should not be smaller than LZ4.

> While I think it would be cool to try a DHGR version I unfortunately don't really have time to work on that right now. I managed to throw together this demo over the weekend because I have a huge supply of lo-res code
from other projects, but I don't really have a lot of HGR/DHGR experience.
> Just drawing a mouse cursor on top of an HGR image seems like it would be a huge undertaking.

Not by much over lo-res. The hires has a calculator for its 192 lines in ROM as well. it is basically the same technique as lo-res. There are just more lines.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391460 is a reply to message #391431] Wed, 04 March 2020 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vince Weaver is currently offline  Vince Weaver
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On 2020-03-03, I am Rob <gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
> what size block? DOS33, ProDOS or something else?
>
> Prodos blocks of 512 bytes. The dbl hi-res pics compressed to 8-9
> blocks from 33 blocks normal size and the hi-res to 4-5 blocks from 17
> blocks normal size

so about 2k for hi-res, that's still about 4 times bigger than the compressed
GR graphics.

> LZ4 includes RLE encoding, so RLE by itself should not be smaller than LZ4.

LZ4 doesn't do well on small files because it has various headers that
take up space. You can strip a lot of those off as unnecessary and save
maybe 20 bytes per file but it's still not a massive saving over RLE.

I ran "lz4 -16" across the 47 images currently used by "MIST".
If you add up the totals:

RAW UNCOMPRESSED: 48,128 bytes
RLE: 23,874 bytes
LZ4 -16: 22,181 bytes
LZSA: 18,027 bytes

so I think I'll try out LZSA, I only found out about it recently from
qkumba.

>> Just drawing a mouse cursor on top of an HGR image seems like it would
>> be a huge undertaking.
>
> Not by much over lo-res. The hires has a calculator for its 192 lines
> in ROM as well. it is basically the same technique as lo-res. There
> are just more lines.

It's more than knowing what line you're on, you have to figure out where
in the 14-bit range you start, and there's a lot of extra shifting and masking
unless you are using precompiled sprites and such. Also I'm gussing the
192 line calculator in ROM isn't really that performant.

Vince
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391461 is a reply to message #391460] Wed, 04 March 2020 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
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<vince@pianoman.cluster.toy> wrote:
> On 2020-03-03, I am Rob <gids.rs@sasktel.net> wrote:
>> what size block? DOS33, ProDOS or something else?
>>
>> Prodos blocks of 512 bytes. The dbl hi-res pics compressed to 8-9
>> blocks from 33 blocks normal size and the hi-res to 4-5 blocks from 17
>> blocks normal size
>
> so about 2k for hi-res, that's still about 4 times bigger than the compressed
> GR graphics.
>
>> LZ4 includes RLE encoding, so RLE by itself should not be smaller than LZ4.
>
> LZ4 doesn't do well on small files because it has various headers that
> take up space. You can strip a lot of those off as unnecessary and save
> maybe 20 bytes per file but it's still not a massive saving over RLE.
>
> I ran "lz4 -16" across the 47 images currently used by "MIST".
> If you add up the totals:
>
> RAW UNCOMPRESSED: 48,128 bytes
> RLE: 23,874 bytes
> LZ4 -16: 22,181 bytes
> LZSA: 18,027 bytes
>
> so I think I'll try out LZSA, I only found out about it recently from
> qkumba.
>
>>> Just drawing a mouse cursor on top of an HGR image seems like it would
>>> be a huge undertaking.
>>
>> Not by much over lo-res. The hires has a calculator for its 192 lines
>> in ROM as well. it is basically the same technique as lo-res. There
>> are just more lines.
>
> It's more than knowing what line you're on, you have to figure out where
> in the 14-bit range you start, and there's a lot of extra shifting and masking
> unless you are using precompiled sprites and such. Also I'm gussing the
> 192 line calculator in ROM isn't really that performant.
>
> Vince
>

Of course, you can get the line start address with two indexed loads at the
cost of two 192-byte tables. ;-)

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391471 is a reply to message #391460] Thu, 05 March 2020 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gids.rs is currently offline  gids.rs
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>> Prodos blocks of 512 bytes. The dbl hi-res pics compressed to 8-9 blocks from 33 blocks normal size and the hi-res to 4-5 blocks from 17 blocks normal size

> .so about 2k for hi-res, that's still about 4 times bigger than the compressed GR graphics.

There is no doubt you can compress a lores screen very small due to its blocky nature.and it is small screen size, but if you want the detail that your opening screen had. Just saying.


>> LZ4 includes RLE encoding, so RLE by itself should not be smaller than LZ4.

LZ4 doesn't do well on small files because it has various headers that take up space. You can strip a lot of those off as unnecessary and save maybe 20 bytes per file but it's still not a massive saving over RLE.

> I ran "lz4 -16" across the 47 images currently used by "MIST".
If you add up the totals:

RAW UNCOMPRESSED: 48,128 bytes
RLE: 23,874 bytes
LZ4 -16: 22,181 bytes
LZSA: 18,027 bytes

> so I think I'll try out LZSA, I only found out about it recently from qkumba.

Agreed. LZ4 does better on larger files due to there being
a larger library to get data from. But I don’t think any other decompressor can beat its decompression speed and 47 images at 2 kb per image will still fit on a floppy and leave room for the controlling program as well. 47 dbl hi-res Pics would require two floppies but the detail would be much nicer. it’s a matter of choice of compression over speed.

>> Just drawing a mouse cursor on top of an HGR image seems like it would be a huge undertaking.
>
> Not by much over lo-res. The hires has a calculator for its 192 lines in ROM as well. it is basically the same technique as lo-res. There are just more lines.

> It's more than knowing what line you're on, you have to figure out where in the 14-bit range you start, and there's a lot of extra shifting and masking unless you are using precompiled sprites and such. Also I'm gussing the
192 line calculator in ROM isn't really that performant.

Woz’s newest hi-res calculator is actually quite fast and takes up very little Ram. You would not have to do a 7 pixel shift of the cursor unless you are looking for extremely smooth cursor movement.

You would just need 2 cursor bitmaps for the shift that starts on a whole byte. One for the even cols and one for the odd. The movement wouldn’t look much different from the lores screen cursor movement horizontally but would be smoother vertically.

The hi-res routine I have for drawing masks and bitmaps is just 17 bytes not counting the overhead to calculate lines. The same routine is also used to capture the background. A lot smaller than most think would be needed due to the complex layout of the hi-res screen.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391480 is a reply to message #391461] Thu, 05 March 2020 10:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: fadden

On Wednesday, March 4, 2020 at 11:58:13 AM UTC-8, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Of course, you can get the line start address with two indexed loads at the
> cost of two 192-byte tables. ;-)

Or if that's too much memory, use two 24-byte tables as you would a line on the text screen, and then just add 4 to the high byte for each 8-line chunk ($2000, $2400, $2800, ...).
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391691 is a reply to message #391412] Tue, 10 March 2020 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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<vince@pianoman.cluster.toy> wrote:

> I've put together another Apple II demake. This one is of the 1990s game
> MYST.

Hi Vince,

So when I read your post, and visited your page and saw that you'd played
MYST so extensively and that you were right into "a quick comparison of an
image from the actual game, a HGR (hi-res) version made with Bill Buckels'
bmp2hgr utility (uncompressed hires images are 8k), and finally a
hand-converted GR (lo-res) version (uncompressed lores images are 1k)";

I thought I'd get a little busy and provide some additional insight that you
and others like you (and unlike you) might enjoy...

Unlike you I am not a fan of MYST (I never played it at all) so I decided
I'd just concentrate on converting some promo images (
https://www.mobygames.com/game/myst/promomainly ) from the Playstation
Version... with the added benefit for me that I get back in practice for a
new 2020 series of Apple II Graphics projects that I have planned...

Anyway, thus far and few between, people have not used most of the features
of my graphics converters, so one of things I want to do as part of moving
forward is getting more actual output online. And projects and such that
they can try... so this herein represents part of what I'll upload...
there's more if one actually wants to do something more than tinker or read
of course.

Videos here:

Apple IIgs Super Hi-Res (SHR) 16-Palette Conversions MYST(1993)

Note: For maximum effect, run full-screen. Slideshow Converted from Promo
Art then transformed to Apple IIgs native format (using my A2B Converter in
conjunction with ImageMagick) and running in the Kegs32 Apple IIgs emulator.
These are sometimes referred to as Apple IIgs Super Hi-Res (SHR)
"Multi-Palette" Images. The dither is my own ("Buckels") dither. This
represents part of a larger selection of SHR Images, dithered and
non-dithered variations in "Single-Palette" and "Brooks" formats, as well as
"Multi-Palette" formats.

https://youtu.be/R_mxpWz7pSY


Apple IIe Double Hi-Res Graphics (DHGR) NTSC Conversions MYST(1993)


Note: For maximum effect, run full-screen. Slideshow of converted promo
images transformed to Apple IIe Double Hi-Res Graphics (DHGR) NTSC format
(using my A2B Converter) running in the AppleWin Emulator.


https://youtu.be/5_bVSFAUBk8

Disk images here:


The working version of the SHR slideshow includes both non-dithered and
dithered slideshows in single-palette, multi-palette (16 palette) and John
Brooks format (200 palette) images. Only the dithered multi-palette
slideshow is in the youtube video.


The working version of the DHGR slideshow includes NTSC and RGB and a
composite color palette that I call a PSEUDO palette. Only the NTSC
slideshow is shown on youtube.

https://www.appleoldies.ca/a2b2020/


Additional Notes Re: Youtube Video Slideshow Etc.


You could write a Super Hi-Res version in cc65 that would also run on an
Apple IIe equipped with SHR compatible video hardware. The slideshow
programs used in both the youtube videos shown here were developed in cc65.
The advantage to porting this into 8-bit code is that it would also run on
the Apple IIe equipped with the proper video... also the same code could
also include a DHGR version for which although arguably not nearly as
sophisticated, the same source stream could be levered.


Here is some of my cc65 documentation: http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/docs/


Here is the SHR loader code: http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/shr/


And some of my other cc65 code: http://www.appleoldies.ca/cc65/programs/

Lastly I am not a big fan of converting gloomy old computer generated game
graphics to DHGR when SHR does so much better... and everyone should keep
in mind that the Apple IIgs does not do DHGR properly but then it doesn't
need to... but if someone insists on downloading the DHGR demo for their
Apple IIgs give this a read...


http://www.appleoldies.ca/bmp2dhr/disclaimer/

Regards,

Bill

PS - The videos on youtube are in emulators. As time permits I'll do them on
my real hardware... I'm just trying to make room in the lab again for all my
Apple II stuff and all that video studio stuff.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391702 is a reply to message #391691] Tue, 10 March 2020 17:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tempest is currently offline  Tempest
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I hated Myst when it came out as it was all flash and no substance (I guess the later games were better in that regard). But if it were ported to the IIe or IIgs I'd definitely play through it. If the Amiga can do it so can the IIgs.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391721 is a reply to message #391702] Wed, 11 March 2020 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
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I thought it was vastly overrated too. A static screen puzzle game (*) is what everyone was raving over??? As a gamer I was _extremely_ bored with it as it was:

a) too easy (completed it in a weekend back in the 90's),
b) the entire time I hated the locked camera (I kept wanting to look UP and DOWN to, you know, actually EXPLORE the world), and
c) It turned into one of those shitty hidden image games where you are forced to scan the entire screen with your mouse moving it in a Z pattern so you can tell what you can _actually_ interact with.

I gave it a 6/10, or "meh score."

Tech wise I also didn't see what the big deal was. They used CD-ROM to store lots of images -- OK, I'm supposed to be impressed with this?? I would be curious to know how many total images are stored on disc and what their total uncompressed size is. That might add some perspective.

I haven't played any of the sequels but I probably should check out realMyst which has an unlocked 3D camera. It is trivial to render them on an modern GPU so the FPS would be guaranteed to be a proper 120+ FPS. I'm even willing to bet one probably could even have an entire scene rendered dynamically in a "fragment shader" in GLSL using raymarching. :-)

That said an HGR and DHGR conversion is interesting for a few reasons:

* What kind of perceptual compression should one use on Computer Generated images?
* How do you efficiently store images?
* What is the difference in quality between HGR (~31 colors) and DHGR (15 color palette)

The SHGR and DHGR images already look great!

(*) A fantastic, beautiful modern puzzle game is The Witness. That is HARD and I love it!
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391724 is a reply to message #391721] Wed, 11 March 2020 12:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> wrote:
> The SHGR and DHGR images already look great!
Thanks Michael... at this point I am bored with them already but nice for
you to say so :)

I asked what you thought of Visual Studio 2019 in another thread... is that
what I should use to write my next generation of image conversion software?
I notice they want money for Qt (I thought of Qt and MinGW) but Visual
Studio is free and can be used on Mac OS/X... but what about Linux?

I have been gone too long... but still firmly believe I should write in
C/C++... or is that not done anymore either... LOL :)

Regards,

Bill
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391725 is a reply to message #391691] Wed, 11 March 2020 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
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Videos looking good Bill !
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391936 is a reply to message #391724] Thu, 12 March 2020 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: fadden

On Wednesday, March 11, 2020 at 9:24:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Buckels wrote:
> I asked what you thought of Visual Studio 2019 in another thread... is that
> what I should use to write my next generation of image conversion software?
> I notice they want money for Qt (I thought of Qt and MinGW) but Visual
> Studio is free and can be used on Mac OS/X... but what about Linux?

Visual Studio Code -- a subset of the full Visual Studio -- runs on Linux as well (https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq).

FWIW, I don't think you have to pay for Qt unless you're selling the thing that uses it. (It's open-source software... so long as you're in compliance with the GPL, you can use it freely.)

> I have been gone too long... but still firmly believe I should write in
> C/C++... or is that not done anymore either... LOL :)

The base Windows API and its C++-wrapper cousin MFC are annoying. Windows Forms is better, WPF is ... something. The latest thing, UWP, only runs on Win10.

C++ with an open-source GUI toolkit remains the best choice for broad portability for desktop apps. C# runs everywhere but the UI toolkits are platform-specific. (In theory Mono can run WinForms; in practice that didn't work out for me. Avalonia remains in "beta", where it has been for a couple of years.) C++ with MFC will run under WINE, but again, MFC is annoying.

Java is dead to me.

w.r.t. Myst, the big deal when it came out was the graphics. It was far prettier than anything that had come before. I remember my parents upgrading the graphics card in their PC to be able to play it.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #391941 is a reply to message #391936] Fri, 13 March 2020 08:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
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"fadden" <thefadden@gmail.com> wrote:
> FWIW, I don't think you have to pay for Qt unless you're selling the thing
> that uses it.

Hi Andy,

Maybe not, but it's hard to say what's going to happen to them next since
the Qt website explicitly begs which sets my spidey sense tingling:

"The Qt framework is available under both open source and commercial
licenses. This dual-licensing model is based on the principal of quid pro
quo - roughly meaning "something for something." Simply put, this is how it
works: In return for the value you receive from using Qt to create your
application, you are expected to give back by contributing to Qt or buying
Qt."

https://www.qt.io/download-open-source

I read your thoughts on development and I really appreciate your input. I
tried mono about 10 years back on both C# and VB.net and some things worked
but that isn't the kind of project I want to do for fun. I had fun with Java
in the '90's and even J++ but that's all pretty dead to me too for what I
enjoy.

Thanks again.

Bill

PS - I was into writing true-color applications in the late 80's when true
color VGA cards came-out on the PC so I really didn't get into a big deal
over the graphics in Seventh-Guest and any games for that matter. My kids
had me covered in that department but preferred Wolfenstein or Doom... to me
Myst was just another article in PC Gamer.
Re: Myst on the Apple II [message #392426 is a reply to message #391412] Wed, 25 March 2020 23:45 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: tcp

Oh that is much prettier than on my Mac.
Did you know rooms of Quadras were used to render the images for that "game?"
Well, Doug Carlston told me that once.

T

vince@pianoman.cluster.toy wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I've put together another Apple II demake. This one is of the 1990s game
> MYST.
>
> It's not the full game, but you can poke around the main island. As always
> it was just a proof-of-concept that got a bit out of hand.
>
> This is in lo-res graphics again. Some of the scenes don't look half bad,
> but for a game like this you really need better resolution. The problem
> is with hi-res you quickly run out of disk space.
>
> Anyway video here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkcUh0nvs6c
>
> More info and disk image here:
> http://www.deater.net/weave/vmwprod/mist/
>
> Vince

--
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Thomas Pfugglyopper * Life is too short for 4 line .sigs
> thomas@zippy.sonoma.edu* -- well, if Kibo didn't say it, he should have
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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