Megalextoria
Retro computing and gaming, sci-fi books, tv and movies and other geeky stuff.

Home » Digital Archaeology » Computer Arcana » Apple » Apple II » Critical Patchouli Monkeys
Show: Today's Messages :: Show Polls :: Message Navigator
E-mail to friend 
Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #389880] Tue, 25 February 2020 04:18 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

No, its really CP/M... todays question without notice... who has a CP/M card, and what version of CP/M does it require?

To kick off the thing I've got...

Softcard Clone - SoftCard CP/M v2.x

Trying to get an idea of how many there are out there, and who actually uses them..

A
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #389881 is a reply to message #389880] Tue, 25 February 2020 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tom Lake is currently offline  Tom Lake
Messages: 450
Registered: May 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 4:18:26 AM UTC-5, Anthony Adverse wrote:
> No, its really CP/M... todays question without notice... who has a CP/M card, and what version of CP/M does it require?
>
> To kick off the thing I've got...
>
> Softcard Clone - SoftCard CP/M v2.x
>
> Trying to get an idea of how many there are out there, and who actually uses them..
>
> A

I have a Softcard, Softcard IIe and a CP/M Card (not all at once, of course!) I usually use the Softcard since it's happy in slot 3 of my IIe Platinum which is where I want to use it.
Tom L
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #389882 is a reply to message #389880] Thu, 27 February 2020 08:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Anthony Adverse" <the.ertceps@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trying to get an idea of how many there are out there, and who actually
> uses them..

I'm afraid that is just not going to happen. Out of curiosity though, have
you visted my website at www.cpm8680.com ?

Also have you joined applecpm@yahoogroups.com and here on usenet do you
subscribe to comp.os.cpm? That is if you are interested...

As to your question about usefulness... wordstar was excellent in its day.
In the early mid-80's in MS-DOS I used my wordstar in both document mode to
do useful things including mail merge with my databases and in non-document
mode as my programmer's editor. In those days I wrote in C... still do at
times...

Really, if you are going to work in CP/M I would suggest you get a C
compiler from my www.aztecmuseum.ca website.

And finally, I'd suggest grabbing an emulator or two...

As to my current usage I have both a softcard clone that I got from atlaz on
ebay over a decade or so ago, and an applicard clone from Alex Freed
https://a2central.com/1661/alex-freeds-applicard-clone-proje ct/

But I just use an emulator mostly because my Apple IIe is filled with other
useful stuff and I can't be bothered...

BTW your subject line is really dumb and uninformative. If you are serious
about this hobby try taking a more meaningful approach and use a properly
descriptive subject line and some CP/M guys might actually notice and reply
to you.

Regards,

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #389883 is a reply to message #389882] Thu, 27 February 2020 09:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Antoine Vignau is currently offline  Antoine Vignau
Messages: 1860
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
I have had nearly all CP/M cards for the Apple II and I have used none. I have no interest in CP/M at all. Yeah, your subject line is dumb, that is why I clicked on it!

Antoine
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #390049 is a reply to message #389883] Thu, 27 February 2020 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 27 Feb 2020, Antoine Vignau wrote:

> I have had nearly all CP/M cards for the Apple II and I have used none.
> I have no interest in CP/M at all. Yeah, your subject line is dumb, that
> is why I clicked on it!

I've thought of using the Softcard for a different purpose, creating a Z80
monitor and Applesoft-like BASIC interpreter, and have it run on top of a
port of DOS 3.3 (still using the 6502 for RWTS).

Not sure how I'd pull that off though.

-uso.
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #390263 is a reply to message #389880] Thu, 27 February 2020 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: MG

On 2020-02-25 09:18:24 +0000, Anthony Adverse said:

> No, its really CP/M... todays question without notice... who has a CP/M
> card, and what version of CP/M does it require?
>
> To kick off the thing I've got...
>
> Softcard Clone - SoftCard CP/M v2.x
>
> Trying to get an idea of how many there are out there, and who actually
> uses them..
>
> A

http://apple2.guidero.us/doku.php/mg_notes/cpm/cpm_combos

MG
Re: Harry Potter in a Yellow Vest (was Critical Patchouli Monkeys) [message #390465 is a reply to message #389883] Thu, 27 February 2020 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Antoine Vignau" <antoine.vignau@laposte.net> wrote:
> I have no interest in CP/M at all.

Yeah... I know what you mean. Coding for the z80 is like hitting oneself
with a whip as part of a religious ritual. But instead of mortification of
the flesh, it's more like mortification of the brain. I hear that Apple IIgs
coders used to march in massive parades in Kansas every year while gouging
themselves on the chest with the pins of z80 chips or slashing themselves
with the edge connectors of CP/M cards while bleeding through the eyes. Many
switched to MS-DOS around the same time despite the segmented architecture.

> Yeah, your subject line is dumb, that is why I clicked on it!

The Streisand Effect. Congratulations :)

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391388 is a reply to message #389880] Sun, 01 March 2020 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

I haven't really looked at any CP/M groups. From the very little I've seen and heard, the A2 CP/M versions seem to have some oddities compared to others than make me wonder just how compatible it might be.

For me its been one of those things that comes around from time to time. I have a space in other activities, the card is sitting there, and I think.. Hmm must have a look. In the past it's never quite made its case for remaining using it. But on a variety of sites I look at, I see questions file past.. and wonder..

Just out of interest the editors I still use have WordStar style commands going on. :)

"C" just isn't my language, I'd have to be trying GWBASIC or was it MBASIC, I forget and whatever other pre-packaged software is out there. I also don't work really well with emulators either. I do have GS+ kicking around, but its usually just a stop gap until I get over to the GS.. much nicer to work with.

> I'm afraid that is just not going to happen. Out of curiosity though, have
> you visted my website at www.cpm8680.com ?

> Also have you joined appl...@yahoogroups.com and here on usenet do you
> subscribe to comp.os.cpm? That is if you are interested...

> As to your question about usefulness... wordstar was excellent in its day.
> In the early mid-80's in MS-DOS I used my wordstar in both document mode to
> do useful things including mail merge with my databases and in non-document
> mode as my programmer's editor. In those days I wrote in C... still do at
> times...

> Really, if you are going to work in CP/M I would suggest you get a C
> compiler from my www.aztecmuseum.ca website.

> And finally, I'd suggest grabbing an emulator or two...

> As to my current usage I have both a softcard clone that I got from atlaz on
> ebay over a decade or so ago, and an applicard clone from Alex Freed
> https://a2central.com/1661/alex-freeds-applicard-clone-proje ct/

> But I just use an emulator mostly because my Apple IIe is filled with other
> useful stuff and I can't be bothered...

> BTW your subject line is really dumb and uninformative. If you are serious
> about this hobby try taking a more meaningful approach and use a properly
> descriptive subject line and some CP/M guys might actually notice and reply
> to you.

Regards,

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391390 is a reply to message #389880] Sun, 01 March 2020 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Anthony Adverse

Oh and just for reference, at least my stupid "Critical Patchoulli Monkeys" used the right initials for CP/M :)

A

PS: Otherwise granted, it is rather inane.
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391392 is a reply to message #391390] Mon, 02 March 2020 07:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Anthony Adverse" <the.ertceps@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh and just for reference, at least my stupid "Critical Patchoulli Monkeys"
> used the right initials for CP/M :)

I noted that immediately. However "initials" is not the correct terminology.
"CP/M" contains the slash character which is a "control character"; control
characters do not correspond to symbols in a particular natural language.
The other 3 characters (C,P, and M) are referred to in computing as upper
case "word characters" or "letters". A "character" is a unit of information.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_(computing)

Whether "CP/M" is an acronym is also debatable. It is an unsettled question
in English lexicography and style guides whether it is legitimate to use the
word acronym to describe forms that use initials but are not pronounced as a
word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acronym#Lexicography_and_style _guides

Fowler's Dictionary of Modern English Usage says that acronym "denotes
abbreviations formed from initial letters of other words and pronounced as a
single word, such as NATO (as distinct from B-B-C)" but adds later "In
everyday use, acronym is often applied to abbreviations that are technically
initialisms, since they are pronounced as separate letters. Bryson's
Dictionary of Troublesome Words says "Abbreviations that are not pronounced
as words (IBM, ABC, NFL) are not acronyms; they are just abbreviations".

So to be clear, you used the correct nomenclature for the abbreviation
"CP/M".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomenclature

Yes, I did notice that. Which is why I replied, which I so seldom do. As to
the pronunciation of the name "CP/M", I just say "C-P-M". But when I
pronounce "BDOS" I say "B-DOS".

So it could also be correctly said that you spelled "CP/M" correctly. Maybe
we should just go with that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#The_name

Later,

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391393 is a reply to message #391388] Mon, 02 March 2020 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Anthony Adverse" <the.ertceps@gmail.com> wrote:
> From the very little I've seen and heard, the A2 CP/M versions seem to have
> some oddities compared to others than make me wonder just how compatible it
> might be.

The SoftCard was the single most-popular platform to run CP/M. What does it
really matter if the Apple II was considered odd by some in that it used a
Z80 co-processor card. Note that oddly enough as well, the NEC V20 and V30
processors support an 8080-emulation mode that can run 8-bit CP/M on a PC
DOS/MS-DOS computer. (I had both of those chips in my IBM-PC's from time to
time back then too.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Hardware_model

Other computers like the Commodore 64 offered a CP/M cartridge.... (I have a
working one here...) and the Commodore 128 has a built-in Z80 but needed to
be clocked-down to run it (I also have a working C=128 here).Now those two
implementations can and should be considered less than stellar
implementations, but the Apple II was pretty solid. The Softcard ran on
Apple II clones like my old Tiger clone.

As I glance at my bookshelf and see the volumes of Z-80 and CP/M manuals
(Mastering CP/M, Programming the Z80, etc.)many from the late Paul
Santa-Maria, it occurs to me that CP/M today is probably lots more
interesting to an old MS-DOS programmer like me than to an old Apple II
programmer like me. If I didn't program I likely wouldn't have been
interested in any of this even the first time around.

Read the links.

Regards,

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391398 is a reply to message #391393] Mon, 02 March 2020 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Bill Buckels <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> "Anthony Adverse" <the.ertceps@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From the very little I've seen and heard, the A2 CP/M versions seem to have
>> some oddities compared to others than make me wonder just how compatible it
>> might be.
>
> The SoftCard was the single most-popular platform to run CP/M. What does it
> really matter if the Apple II was considered odd by some in that it used a
> Z80 co-processor card. Note that oddly enough as well, the NEC V20 and V30
> processors support an 8080-emulation mode that can run 8-bit CP/M on a PC
> DOS/MS-DOS computer. (I had both of those chips in my IBM-PC's from time to
> time back then too.)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-80_SoftCard
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CP/M#Hardware_model
>
> Other computers like the Commodore 64 offered a CP/M cartridge.... (I have a
> working one here...) and the Commodore 128 has a built-in Z80 but needed to
> be clocked-down to run it (I also have a working C=128 here).Now those two
> implementations can and should be considered less than stellar
> implementations, but the Apple II was pretty solid. The Softcard ran on
> Apple II clones like my old Tiger clone.
>
> As I glance at my bookshelf and see the volumes of Z-80 and CP/M manuals
> (Mastering CP/M, Programming the Z80, etc.)many from the late Paul
> Santa-Maria, it occurs to me that CP/M today is probably lots more
> interesting to an old MS-DOS programmer like me than to an old Apple II
> programmer like me. If I didn't program I likely wouldn't have been
> interested in any of this even the first time around.
>
> Read the links.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill
>
>
>

It’s my understanding that Apple II CP/M was the largest installed base of
CP/M machines. So it can hardly be considered “odd”.

The only “unusual” thing about Apple II CP/M was that it required that
programs and data be presented on Apple-format disks, but there were many
ways to satisfy that requirement.

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391410 is a reply to message #391392] Mon, 02 March 2020 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
Messages: 1262
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
CP/M is an abbreviation; NOT an acronym. There IS a difference!

I'm pretty sure there are only ~3 people in the world that care to debate the semantics of CP/M. /s

Regardless of what you call it -- you can't polish a turd.

OT: I've always referred to it as **Crap Program Management** due to its utterly brain dead File System which held computers back for _over_ 25+ years.. (ALMOST as retarded as DOS 3.3 wasting 4 bytes/track to mark 16 sectors as "in use." I'm SO glad that "some day" with tracks having more then 16 sectors panned out in DOS 3.4. Oh wait, it didn't. /s)

The history of Files and File Systems -- hell most of software and hardware -- is littered with dumb programmers who constantly couldn't/didn't plan ahead; they were more interested with quick, dumb, kludges. This short-sightedness would be excusable if they didn't force the world to suffer for DECADES due to their stupidity then to actually THINK about the problem for more then 30 seconds. (Apparently abstracting sectors into blocks -- a la Unix's i-nodes -- was too hard for these people. That reminds me I need to take a look at RDOS, Roland's DOS, one of these days as that was designed by someone who actually knew what the fuck they were doing instead of these amateurs.)

What's that old joke? Those that fail to understand Unix are condemned to reimplement it, badly.

Even Unix had that retarded 8.3 filename limit at first too but thankfully smarter heads prevailed.

Thankfully 8.3 filenames died the same time double control character shortcuts in WordStar did -- which makes me love Vim's brilliant design all the more: It was written by programmers for programmers.

Ironically in 2020 we have "UX" experts who are even more clueless then the people they replaced!

Michael
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391411 is a reply to message #391410] Mon, 02 March 2020 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'" <michael.pohoreski@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regardless of what you call it -- you can't polish a turd.
Hi Michael,

As you likely know, even turd-polishers have labour unions these days.

I find myself in pain again... should I install Visual Studio 2019 and the
"code" ide with c/c++ to produce an apple II graphics converter that runs as
a cross-platform gui... I see that qt want money now so that's out. I also
want to link to the imagemagick api for this thing I want to write based on
work that I did with my mingw-gcc cli converters.

What would you do? I really value your opinion on this one unless you tell
me not to write in C.

I also wish to point-out to everyone that in Canada we pronounce Z80 as
"Zed-Eighty" and not "Zee-Eighty".

Regards,

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391413 is a reply to message #391398] Mon, 02 March 2020 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> wrote:
> The only "unusual" thing about Apple II CP/M was that it required that
> programs and data be presented on Apple-format disks, but there were many
> ways to satisfy that requirement.

Hi Michael,

There was one other really "unusual" feature that I want to implement in an
Apple II CP/M Aztec C80 program someday... and a feature that was
demonstrated in some Turbo Pascal programs for CP/M and that was the ability
from within CP/M to switch from the Z80 processor to the 6502 processor to
do graphics, then back to the 6502 processor again.

"APPLE GRAPHICS FROM CP/M by Ted Carnevale 1/3/85" and "GRAFSTUF.INC
author:Don Taylor, Poulsbo, WA source:TUG May-June 1985 pages 14-24"

I ran the demos here and from what I recall they worked fine on my real
Apple IIe with my Softcard clone, but I failed to get my C program version
together...

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391420 is a reply to message #391413] Mon, 02 March 2020 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Antoine Vignau is currently offline  Antoine Vignau
Messages: 1860
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
@ Michael,
So true about the CP/M file system, but it uses blocks of 1024 bytes, four DOS 3.3 sectors.

You will also be disappointed by rdos. Its structure is as simple as DOS 3.3. Its main limit is that a file has no track/sector list, all sectors must be contiguous. A file cannot expand easily!

@Bill,
We also say Zed quatre-vingts.

Antoine
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391445 is a reply to message #391413] Wed, 04 March 2020 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ol.sc is currently offline  ol.sc
Messages: 211
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Hi Bill,

> [...]a feature that was
> demonstrated in some Turbo Pascal programs for CP/M and that was the ability
> from within CP/M to switch from the Z80 processor to the 6502 processor to
> do graphics, then back to the 6502 processor again.

I don't know if this is actually interesting to you but below is the
Turbo Pascal source code I used back then.

Regards,
Oliver

==========

Type AppleColors =
(Black,Green,Violett,White,Black2,Orange,Blue,White2);
String10 = String [10];

Var AReg : Byte Absolute $F045;
XReg : Byte Absolute $F046;
YReg : Byte Absolute $F047;
AXReg : Integer Absolute AReg;
XYReg : Integer Absolute XReg;

Procedure Call6502 (Address : Integer);
Var Adr6502 : Integer Absolute $F3D0;
Z80Card : Integer Absolute $F3DE;
Begin
Adr6502 := Address;
Mem [Z80Card] := 0;
End;

Procedure Hgr;
Begin
Call6502 ($F3D8);
End;

Procedure Graphic;
Begin
Mem [$E055] := 0;
Mem [$E052] := 0;
Mem [$E057] := 0;
Mem [$E050] := 0;
Mem [$F01C] := 0;
Mem [$F0E6] := $40;
End;

Procedure Txt;
Begin
Mem [$E051] := 0;
End;

Procedure HColor (Color : AppleColors);
Begin
XReg := Ord (Color);
Call6502 ($F6F0);
Mem [$F01C] := Mem [$F0E4];
End;

Procedure BackGround;
Begin
Call6502 ($F3F6);
End;

Procedure HPosition (X,Y : Integer);
Begin
XYReg := X Mod 280;
AReg := Y Mod 192;
Call6502 ($F411);
End;

Procedure HPlot (X,Y : Integer);
Begin
XYReg := X Mod 280;
AReg := Y Mod 192;
Call6502 ($F457);
End;

Procedure HLine (X,Y : Integer);
Begin
AXReg := X Mod 280;
YReg := Y Mod 192;
Call6502 ($F53A);
End;

Procedure Draw (ShapeAddress,ShapeScale,ShapeRot : Integer);
Begin
Mem [$F0E7] := ShapeScale Mod 256;
AReg := ShapeRot Mod 64;
XYReg := ShapeAddress + $1000;
Call6502 ($F601);
End;

Procedure XDraw (ShapeAddress,ShapeScale,ShapeRot : Integer);
Begin
Mem [$F0E7] := ShapeScale Mod 256;
AReg := ShapeRot Mod 64;
XYReg := ShapeAddress + $1000;
Call6502 ($F65D);
End;

Procedure PicLoad (FileName : String10);
Var PicFile : File;
Begin
Assign (PicFile,FileName + '.PIC');
Reset (PicFile);
BlockRead (PicFile,Mem [$3000],$40);
Close (PicFile);
End;

Procedure PicSave (FileName : String10);
Var PicFile : File;
Begin
Assign (PicFile,FileName + '.PIC');
Rewrite (PicFile);
BlockWrite (PicFile,Mem [$3000],$40);
Close (PicFile);
End;
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391447 is a reply to message #391445] Wed, 04 March 2020 08:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bill Buckels is currently offline  Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Oliver Schmidt" <ol.sc@web.de> wrote:
> I don't know if this is actually interesting to you but below is the Turbo
> Pascal source code I used back then.
Hi Oliver,

Absolutely interesting. Thanks.

Bill
Re: Critical Patchouli Monkeys [message #391722 is a reply to message #391420] Wed, 11 March 2020 10:55 Go to previous message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
Messages: 1262
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
> You will also be disappointed by rdos. Its structure is as simple as DOS 3.3. Its main limit is that a file has no track/sector list, all sectors must be contiguous. A file cannot expand easily!

:-/

Roland came from a gaming background so it actually makes quite a bit of sense from him to treat a File System as mostly read-only.

Ironically I came up a similar design a couple years back -- a file's sectors/blocks have to be contiguous but I also have a Free Block bitmap. It is a hybrid system so files could expand. I really should finish up that project.

I need to write a DOS (and other OSs) defrag utility one of these days. :-)
  Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Previous Topic: Map program for Apple II
Next Topic: Using an Apple II to write a Commodore 64 disk
Goto Forum:
  

-=] Back to Top [=-
[ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [ RSS ] [ PDF ]

Current Time: Thu Mar 28 13:59:00 EDT 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01979 seconds