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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389244 is a reply to message #389228] |
Thu, 12 December 2019 10:48   |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 21:31:59 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> Ads for the DC-8 and 707, early jet planes.
>>
>> DC-8
>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-08/page/n13
>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 2-06/page/n67
>>
>> 707
>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-15/page/n91
>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-22/page/n67
>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 1-10/page/n13
>>
>> turbo prop
>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 2-21/page/n9
>>
>> Personal note: I don't like to fly, but I found the 707
>> a comfortable airplane. Seemed more stable.
>>
>> obcomp: I think the planes required a computer to help with the
>> design calculations--once they advanced beyond the DC-3, it
>> was too complex to do without them.
>
> I wonder how they managed to design the DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7
> without computers? Or the Avro Lancaster. Or the B-29.
> Or the ME-262.
Slide rules, just like the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo craft.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389245 is a reply to message #389244] |
Thu, 12 December 2019 11:26 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 21:31:59 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>> Ads for the DC-8 and 707, early jet planes.
>>>
>>> DC-8
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-08/page/n13
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 2-06/page/n67
>>>
>>> 707
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-15/page/n91
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-22/page/n67
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 1-10/page/n13
>>>
>>> turbo prop
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 2-21/page/n9
>>>
>>> Personal note: I don't like to fly, but I found the 707
>>> a comfortable airplane. Seemed more stable.
>>>
>>> obcomp: I think the planes required a computer to help with the
>>> design calculations--once they advanced beyond the DC-3, it
>>> was too complex to do without them.
>>
>> I wonder how they managed to design the DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7
>> without computers? Or the Avro Lancaster. Or the B-29.
>> Or the ME-262.
>
> Slide rules, just like the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo craft.
Indeed. Perhaps my reply was too tongue-in-cheek...
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389247 is a reply to message #389245] |
Thu, 12 December 2019 12:28 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 16:26:18 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 21:31:59 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>> Ads for the DC-8 and 707, early jet planes.
>>>>
>>>> DC-8
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-08/page/n13
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 2-06/page/n67
>>>>
>>>> 707
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-15/page/n91
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-22/page/n67
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 1-10/page/n13
>>>>
>>>> turbo prop
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 2-21/page/n9
>>>>
>>>> Personal note: I don't like to fly, but I found the 707
>>>> a comfortable airplane. Seemed more stable.
>>>>
>>>> obcomp: I think the planes required a computer to help with the
>>>> design calculations--once they advanced beyond the DC-3, it
>>>> was too complex to do without them.
>>>
>>> I wonder how they managed to design the DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7
>>> without computers? Or the Avro Lancaster. Or the B-29.
>>> Or the ME-262.
>>
>> Slide rules, just like the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo craft.
>
> Indeed. Perhaps my reply was too tongue-in-cheek...
Yup, text only can be a problem.
Maybe some sort of ascii smiley ?
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389248 is a reply to message #389244] |
Thu, 12 December 2019 13:28 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 21:31:59 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>> Ads for the DC-8 and 707, early jet planes.
>>>
>>> DC-8
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-08/page/n13
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 2-06/page/n67
>>>
>>> 707
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-15/page/n91
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-22/page/n67
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 1-10/page/n13
>>>
>>> turbo prop
>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 2-21/page/n9
>>>
>>> Personal note: I don't like to fly, but I found the 707
>>> a comfortable airplane. Seemed more stable.
>>>
>>> obcomp: I think the planes required a computer to help with the
>>> design calculations--once they advanced beyond the DC-3, it
>>> was too complex to do without them.
>>
>> I wonder how they managed to design the DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7
>> without computers? Or the Avro Lancaster. Or the B-29.
>> Or the ME-262.
>
> Slide rules, just like the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo craft.
>
I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389252 is a reply to message #389248] |
Thu, 12 December 2019 13:53 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 1:28:58 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
yes.
We use the internet's tools so often we do take them for
granted.
Indeed, sometimes while watching an old TV show, I find myself
asking "why doesn't he just look it up online?" then I
remember that capability didn't exist.
Of course, in some old shows, they had secretaries work
miracles. In Mannix just the other night, Mannix had
Peggy get a lot of information from the DMV and the VA
very quickly on a partial name. I think in real life
such searches would've taken days, if they could've been
done at all.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389257 is a reply to message #389224] |
Thu, 12 December 2019 17:06 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 13:41:23 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 09:48:18 -0600, JimP wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2019 21:31:59 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>> Ads for the DC-8 and 707, early jet planes.
>>>>
>>>> DC-8
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-08/page/n13
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 2-06/page/n67
>>>>
>>>> 707
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-15/page/n91
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1958-1 1-22/page/n67
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 1-10/page/n13
>>>>
>>>> turbo prop
>>>> https://archive.org/details/the-saturday-evening-post-1959-0 2-21/page/n9
>>>>
>>>> Personal note: I don't like to fly, but I found the 707
>>>> a comfortable airplane. Seemed more stable.
>>>>
>>>> obcomp: I think the planes required a computer to help with the
>>>> design calculations--once they advanced beyond the DC-3, it
>>>> was too complex to do without them.
>>>
>>> I wonder how they managed to design the DC-4, DC-6 and DC-7
>>> without computers? Or the Avro Lancaster. Or the B-29.
>>> Or the ME-262.
>>
>> Slide rules, just like the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo craft.
>
> At least the Gemini and Apollo program used computers.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemini_Guidance_Computer
I was refering to the designing of them.
>> --
>> Jim
>
> Your signature delimiter is not working. It got to be "-- " (a space after
> the dashes).
There were two spaces, now there is one.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389262 is a reply to message #389248] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 05:24 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
couple of thousand years.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389263 is a reply to message #389252] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 06:26 |
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Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.
On 12/12/2019 19.53, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2019 at 1:28:58 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>
> yes.
>
> We use the internet's tools so often we do take them for
> granted.
>
> Indeed, sometimes while watching an old TV show, I find myself
> asking "why doesn't he just look it up online?" then I
> remember that capability didn't exist.
>
> Of course, in some old shows, they had secretaries work
> miracles. In Mannix just the other night, Mannix had
> Peggy get a lot of information from the DMV and the VA
> very quickly on a partial name. I think in real life
> such searches would've taken days, if they could've been
> done at all.
Well indexed libraries, I guess.
--
Cheers, Carlos.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389264 is a reply to message #389224] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 10:22 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 13 Dec 2019 12:17:33 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> And it still pisses me off how shitty the computer technology (and
> weapons) in "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" is. Go read "Excession" if
> you want to see how it should be done.
The Expanse looks pretty good today, but I rather suspect it will
start to look dated in a decade or two (those souped up cellphones they
use will most likely look clumsy and old-fashioned soon enough).
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389265 is a reply to message #389224] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 12:52 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On 13 Dec 2019 12:17:33 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-12-13, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far weve come in 75 years, or how the
>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>> couple of thousand years.
>
> And it still pisses me off how shitty the computer technology (and
> weapons) in "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" is. Go read "Excession" if
> you want to see how it should be done.
Its like they used the fictional technology from the 1920s and 1930s,
but even the newspaper comic strip Buck Rogers did it better.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389266 is a reply to message #389262] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 13:54 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>
> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
> couple of thousand years.
>
Didn’t remember that, and I’ve read the stories two or three times. Reading
some old Heinlein stories I have come across people using slide rules, and
these days it’s jarring.
When I was in college a good sliderule hung on your belt was kind of a
badge indicating that you belonged to the in-group.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389267 is a reply to message #389224] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 13:54 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-12-13, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>> couple of thousand years.
>
> And it still pisses me off how shitty the computer technology (and
> weapons) in "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" is. Go read "Excession" if
> you want to see how it should be done.
>
Except SW has droids with enough artificial intelligence to appear
sentient.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389268 is a reply to message #389262] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 14:41 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 5:30:12 AM UTC-5, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
> couple of thousand years.
IBM had an ad in the early 1950s with a bunch of engineers
holding slide rules.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389271 is a reply to message #389266] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 16:14 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:54:35 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and
>> 50s with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they
>> used slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New
>> York for a couple of thousand years.
>>
>
> Didn’t remember that, and I’ve read the stories two or three times
Hazelton's slipstick gets eaten by the table clear up machine
(treacher IIRC) at some point quite late in the series. There's also some
talk about longevity, memory and the replacing of knowledge with simple,
reliable machines such as slide rules.
When they encountered the rogue city IMT its spindizzies ran on
valves and Amalfi or Hazelton offered to upgrade them to transistors saying
they had plenty of Germanium on hand.
> Reading some old Heinlein stories I have come across people using slide
> rules, and these days it’s jarring.
Yep.
> When I was in college a good sliderule hung on your belt was kind of a
> badge indicating that you belonged to the in-group.
Indeed, I still have mine and even use it occasionally.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389272 is a reply to message #389262] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 16:54 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:24:58 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>
> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and
50s
> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York
> for a couple of thousand years.
And don't forget 'Slipstick Libby'
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389274 is a reply to message #389272] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 17:30 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 13 Dec 2019 21:54:59 GMT
Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:
> And don't forget 'Slipstick Libby'
Ah yes, transgender several decades before it became fashionable,
but he/she didn't use a slipstick.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389275 is a reply to message #389262] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 21:15 |
Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:24:58 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I (at least) tend to forget how far weve come in 75 years, or how the
>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>
> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
> couple of thousand years.
THe RPG Traveller, set in the far future, had computers with 16K
of memory.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389276 is a reply to message #389272] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 21:18 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 13 Dec 2019 21:54:59 GMT, Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 10:24:58 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700 Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far we’ve come in 75 years, or how the
>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and
> 50s
>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York
>> for a couple of thousand years.
>
> And don't forget 'Slipstick Libby'
But he didn't use one, he _was_one.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389278 is a reply to message #389224] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 21:34 |
Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 13 Dec 2019 12:17:33 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-12-13, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far weve come in 75 years, or how the
>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>> couple of thousand years.
>
> And it still pisses me off how shitty the computer technology (and
> weapons) in "Star Trek" and "Star Wars" is. Go read "Excession" if
> you want to see how it should be done.
Plot armour. For example, in this clip, Chekov pulls off a
"miracle":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGNfrNJZin4
but if the computer can recnognise a lock (as it does just before
beam-up), why couldn't the situation could have been solved with
"Computer, lock onto Kirk and ?, and beam them aboard."?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389280 is a reply to message #389279] |
Fri, 13 December 2019 22:46 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 02:40:21 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
<johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
> In article <20191213102458.64da266c91755d30740488dc@eircom.net>,
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>> couple of thousand years.
>
> I keep one of my father's K+E slide rules in my backpack. You never know.
One of the days I need to put one of mine in a glass fronted case with
a little hammer and a sign "For emergency use".
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389281 is a reply to message #389280] |
Sat, 14 December 2019 05:08 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 22:46:41 -0500, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 02:40:21 -0000 (UTC), John Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
> wrote:
>
>> In article <20191213102458.64da266c91755d30740488dc@eircom.net>,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and
50s
>>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York
>>> for a couple of thousand years.
>>
>> I keep one of my father's K+E slide rules in my backpack. You never
>> know.
>
> One of the days I need to put one of mine in a glass fronted case with a
> little hammer and a sign "For emergency use".
I have an abacus like that.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389288 is a reply to message #389266] |
Sat, 14 December 2019 13:20 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:54:35 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far weve come in 75 years, or how the
>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>
>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>> couple of thousand years.
>>
>
> Didnt remember that, and Ive read the stories two or three times. Reading
> some old Heinlein stories I have come across people using slide rules, and
> these days its jarring.
>
> When I was in college a good sliderule hung on your belt was kind of a
> badge indicating that you belonged to the in-group.
The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
A family decided the Earth's moon was becoming too crowded and went to
Mars. Then the outer planets. One of the kids, in elementary school,
was taking calculus and using a fancy slide rule. I think it was 'dual
log log'.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389304 is a reply to message #389290] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 03:01 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:02:30 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
>
> _The Rolling Stones_. The matriarch of which appears as a child
In the US it was "The Rolling Stones" in the UK "Space Family
Stone".
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389305 is a reply to message #389280] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 08:07 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 02:40:21 -0000 (UTC), John Levine
> <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <20191213102458.64da266c91755d30740488dc@eircom.net>,
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>>> couple of thousand years.
>>
>> I keep one of my father's K+E slide rules in my backpack. You never know.
>
> One of the days I need to put one of mine in a glass fronted case with
> a little hammer and a sign "For emergency use".
>
I was going to,do that, too, when I got a round tuit, but the time never
came and now I don’t have anyplace to hang it, though I still have the
sliderule in storage somewhere.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389306 is a reply to message #389288] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 08:07 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:54:35 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I (at least) tend to forget how far weve come in 75 years, or how the
>>>> world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>>
>>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>>> couple of thousand years.
>>>
>>
>> Didnt remember that, and Ive read the stories two or three times. Reading
>> some old Heinlein stories I have come across people using slide rules, and
>> these days its jarring.
>>
>> When I was in college a good sliderule hung on your belt was kind of a
>> badge indicating that you belonged to the in-group.
>
> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
> A family decided the Earth's moon was becoming too crowded and went to
> Mars. Then the outer planets. One of the kids, in elementary school,
> was taking calculus and using a fancy slide rule. I think it was 'dual
> log log'.
>
“The Rolling Stones?”, or is this another story.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389307 is a reply to message #389304] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 11:44 |
Alfred Falk
Messages: 195
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in
news:20191215080140.8517f760f10c990586200b4f@eircom.net:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:02:30 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
>> _The Rolling Stones_. The matriarch of which appears as a child
>
> In the US it was "The Rolling Stones" in the UK "Space Family
> Stone".
Bringing us back to computer folklore:
An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the results,
two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
It wasn't clear (to me, at least) whether they were analog or digital. Not
that I knew much about computers at the time that I read it.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389308 is a reply to message #389307] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 12:13 |
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Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 16:44:27 GMT, Alfred Falk <aefalk@telus.net> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in
> news:20191215080140.8517f760f10c990586200b4f@eircom.net:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:02:30 GMT
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>
>>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by
>>>> Heinlein.
>>> _The Rolling Stones_. The matriarch of which appears as a child
>>
>> In the US it was "The Rolling Stones" in the UK "Space Family
>> Stone".
>
> Bringing us back to computer folklore:
> An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
> triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the
> results, two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
> It wasn't clear (to me, at least) whether they were analog or digital.
> Not that I knew much about computers at the time that I read it.
>
AIUI this actually happened.
http://cpushack.com/space-craft-cpu.html
Mentions some spacecraft with redundant computers.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389309 is a reply to message #389307] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 12:20 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 16:44:27 -0000 (UTC), Alfred Falk
<aefalk@telus.net> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in
> news:20191215080140.8517f760f10c990586200b4f@eircom.net:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:02:30 GMT
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>
>>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
>>> _The Rolling Stones_. The matriarch of which appears as a child
>>
>> In the US it was "The Rolling Stones" in the UK "Space Family
>> Stone".
>
> Bringing us back to computer folklore:
> An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
> triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the results,
> two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
> It wasn't clear (to me, at least) whether they were analog or digital. Not
> that I knew much about computers at the time that I read it.
Not an uncommon concept. The first fly-by-wire airliners had
double-redundant flight controls IIRC, with the actuators sized so
that the two that agreed could always overpower the one that didn't.
Apparently Boeing abandoned this concept on the 737 Max.
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389315 is a reply to message #389304] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 15:59 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 08:01:40 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:02:30 GMT
> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
>>
>> _The Rolling Stones_. The matriarch of which appears as a child
>
> In the US it was "The Rolling Stones" in the UK "Space Family
> Stone".
"The Family Stone" was the one I read. I didn't think I had the
correct title.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389316 is a reply to message #389306] |
Sun, 15 December 2019 16:00 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Sun, 15 Dec 2019 06:07:29 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:54:35 -0700, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:28:55 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I (at least) tend to forget how far we?ve come in 75 years, or how the
>>>> > world functioned without computers, the internet, and google.
>>>>
>>>> You see the inverse of that effect in SF written in the 40s and 50s
>>>> with spaceship pilots and engineers using slide rules - heck they used
>>>> slide rules and germanium transistors to run the flying city New York for a
>>>> couple of thousand years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Didn?t remember that, and I?ve read the stories two or three times. Reading
>>> some old Heinlein stories I have come across people using slide rules, and
>>> these days it?s jarring.
>>>
>>> When I was in college a good sliderule hung on your belt was kind of a
>>> badge indicating that you belonged to the in-group.
>>
>> The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
>> A family decided the Earth's moon was becoming too crowded and went to
>> Mars. Then the outer planets. One of the kids, in elementary school,
>> was taking calculus and using a fancy slide rule. I think it was 'dual
>> log log'.
>>
>
> The Rolling Stones?, or is this another story.
I misremembered the title, you are correct.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389321 is a reply to message #389224] |
Mon, 16 December 2019 11:15 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-12-15, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-12-15, Alfred Falk <aefalk@telus.net> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote in
>> news:20191215080140.8517f760f10c990586200b4f@eircom.net:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 19:02:30 GMT
>>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:
>>>
>>>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >The Family Stone, I think I have that title correct, was by Heinlein.
>>>> _The Rolling Stones_. The matriarch of which appears as a child
>>>
>>> In the US it was "The Rolling Stones" in the UK "Space Family
>>> Stone".
>>
>> Bringing us back to computer folklore:
>> An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
>> triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the results,
>> two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
>
> Just like Airbus, then ... :o)
Better than the 737MAX looking at only one angle-of-attack sensor...
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389324 is a reply to message #389321] |
Mon, 16 December 2019 13:31 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 16 Dec 2019 16:15:44 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> On 2019-12-15, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> Bringing us back to computer folklore:
>>> An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
>>> triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the results,
>>> two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
>>
>> Just like Airbus, then ... :o)
Referring to the 2009 crash on a flight between Brazil and France?
> Better than the 737MAX looking at only one angle-of-attack sensor...
Can't still understand, why pilots, which noticed something is wrong, did
not just shut off the autopilot to avoid the disaster.
--
Andreas
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389325 is a reply to message #389324] |
Mon, 16 December 2019 13:38 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
> On 16 Dec 2019 16:15:44 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-12-15, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> Bringing us back to computer folklore:
>>>> An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
>>>> triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the results,
>>>> two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
>>>
>>> Just like Airbus, then ... :o)
>
> Referring to the 2009 crash on a flight between Brazil and France?
>
>> Better than the 737MAX looking at only one angle-of-attack sensor...
>
> Can't still understand, why pilots, which noticed something is wrong, did
> not just shut off the autopilot to avoid the disaster.
Because it wasn't the autopilot. The MCAS system was designed to
override pilot inputs and force the nose down; in this case, it had
bad data (aoa) to work with and a lack of redundancy. Moreover,
the MCAS system itself was only necessary because Boeing wanted larger
engines, which required moving them forward on the wing, which changed
the pitch characteristics of the aircraft [all because the original 737
was specifically designed to be low to the ground to support airstairs and
unimproved airports].
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| Re: OT: Early jet ads [message #389331 is a reply to message #389324] |
Mon, 16 December 2019 22:15 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 13:31:06 -0500, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 16 Dec 2019 16:15:44 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-12-15, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> Bringing us back to computer folklore:
>>>> An odd detail that I remember from that story was that they installed
>>>> triple-redundant navigational computers. If they disagreed on the results,
>>>> two could outvote the other, supposedly wrong, one.
>>>
>>> Just like Airbus, then ... :o)
>
> Referring to the 2009 crash on a flight between Brazil and France?
>
>> Better than the 737MAX looking at only one angle-of-attack sensor...
>
> Can't still understand, why pilots, which noticed something is wrong, did
> not just shut off the autopilot to avoid the disaster.
Because "shutting off the autopilot" doesn't fix the problem. The
aircraft remains in a condition of extreme nose-down trim, too great
to overpower with the flight controls, and the manual trim wheel,
which with the electronic flight control system turned off is the only
way to adjust the trim, is frozen by the forces acting on the trim
mechanism.
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