| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388286 is a reply to message #388283] |
Sun, 03 November 2019 19:17   |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 03 Nov 2019 19:10:03 -0400, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
wrote:
>
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> So how many people do you know, personally, who lived under Communism?
>> Not propagandists like Solzhenitsyn who have an act to grind and don't
>> have the brains to shut up once it becomes clear that they have drawn
>> the ire of the political machine, but ordinary farmers and shopkeepers
>> and factory workers and others who don't really give a rat's behind
>> about political theory?
>
> Just one, a blacksmith and sculptor in Czechoslovakia, now deceased.
>
> After he installed a large sculpture in a public place, people from
> the "authorities" visited him to inquire where, on his sculpture, the
> emblems or symbols of Communism appeared. The threat -- to an artist
> working as a private entrepereneur and not a state enterprise -- was
> implicit.
>
> He told them that what they were looking for was on the very top of
> the piece, symbolizing the Party's aspiration to strive ever upwards.
> The "authorities" guys went away, presumably satisfied. As the piece
> was 30' tall and quite slender, no one ever bothered to get up there
> and determine that he had lied.
>
> As something of a celebrity artist in his own country, he was allowed
> to travel to the USA & Britain as a featured presenter at important
> cultural events but both his wife and his small child were required to
> remain at home as hostages for his good behavior and return.
So would he have favored the United States invading Czechoslovakia to
"free" him?
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388288 is a reply to message #388282] |
Sun, 03 November 2019 19:18 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 22:22:07 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
<rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-11-03, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>
> You misspelled "DemoCRAT nutcases who emulate Marxism." Liberals have
> quite a bit to do with our current crises. (Senator McCarthy was correct
> in his assessment of Communist infiltration, though of course his methods
> were execrable.)
Democrats and Republicans both want to micromanage our lives. The
disagreement is over which aspect to micromanage first and what they
should micromanage us to do.
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388290 is a reply to message #388284] |
Sun, 03 November 2019 23:40 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:15:11 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> And did any of them say "we would prefer atomic bombs being dropped on
> our heads to continuing life under Stalin"?
American atomic bombs were to keep Americans from having to live life under
Stalin, and the war in Vietnam was fought to prevent Communism from spreading to
other countries like Thailand.
That is the logical error in your post.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388294 is a reply to message #388290] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 07:23 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 20:40:34 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:
> On Sunday, November 3, 2019 at 5:15:11 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> And did any of them say "we would prefer atomic bombs being dropped on
>> our heads to continuing life under Stalin"?
>
> American atomic bombs were to keep Americans from having to live life under
> Stalin, and the war in Vietnam was fought to prevent Communism from spreading to
> other countries like Thailand.
And yet the Communists won in Vietname and it didn't spread.
And would the Thais have been worse off with a home-grown Communist
government than with the US bombing them to rubble to "save" them?
> That is the logical error in your post.
The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388297 is a reply to message #388274] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 10:09 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:53:59 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:48:16 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> > You kept your mouth
>>>> > shut at all times, never criticizing the government, ever (or
>>>> > much else), less the police come for you and you're never seen
>>>> > again.
>>>
>>>> Depends on how you criticized it and who to and whether you were
>>>> significant enough for anybody to care. The secret police didn't
>>>> really have any incentive to round up every drunk who mouthed off in a
>>>> bar.
>>>
>>>> > Going back a generation, people lived under constant
>>>> > terror, even after Stalin's death.
>>>
>>>> Constant terror of what?
>>>
>>>> > Kruschev wasn't as bad, but was no saint.
>>>
>>>> You sound like the "Americanism vs Communism" text for the propaganda
>>>> class I was required to sit through in sixth grade.
>>>
>>> Communism _was_ pretty much as evil as it was painted by American conservatives.
>>>
>>> That they exploited this as a club against loyal Americans who wanted America to
>>> do more for racial equality, to address poverty, and so on... speaks badly of
>>> them, but it does not change what Stalin or Khrushchev or Brezhnev or Andropov
>>> were.
>>>
>>> This is the misunderstanding that keeps America divided.
>>
>> Since you did not take that propaganda course, you have no basis for
>> commenting on it. Suffice it to say that much of what they told us
>> was evil about Communism also occurred in places like France.
>>
>> And much of what they told us was evil about Communism is now taking
>> place in the United States, mostly at the behest of liberals.
>
> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
> nothing to do with our current crises.
(mostly) it’s not the right who refuse to let people they don’t agree with
speak. or attack someone for something they may have done years ago,
regardless of what they might be doing now. Even Obama is pushing back
against this “wokeness”. Both sides are doing bad stuff, and it’s scary,
but it’s pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388298 is a reply to message #388288] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 10:09 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Nov 2019 22:22:07 -0000 (UTC), Roger Blake
> <rogblake@iname.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-11-03, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>>
>> You misspelled "DemoCRAT nutcases who emulate Marxism." Liberals have
>> quite a bit to do with our current crises. (Senator McCarthy was correct
>> in his assessment of Communist infiltration, though of course his methods
>> were execrable.)
>
> Democrats and Republicans both want to micromanage our lives. The
> disagreement is over which aspect to micromanage first and what they
> should micromanage us to do.
>
+1
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388301 is a reply to message #388294] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 10:09 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
Thais and Vietnamese.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388304 is a reply to message #388301] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 10:48 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:09:58 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>
> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
> Thais and Vietnamese.
I doubt every American approved of any of that. Same for other people
living elsewhere.
If someone only knows the form of government they live under, they
can't make a choice. My high school history teacher had us read Mein
Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and the US Constitution and Bill of
Rights. I seem to remember we read some part of the Federalist papers
to, but I'm not sure. I noticed rather quickly the Kampf and Manifesto
were idiocy and rather loony in places.
But many nations simply don't allow opposing views of government to be
read, viewed, etc. by their people. So they can't make choices.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388307 is a reply to message #388297] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 12:53 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:53:59 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:48:16 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> You kept your mouth
>>>> >> shut at all times, never criticizing the government, ever (or
>>>> >> much else), less the police come for you and you're never seen
>>>> >> again.
>>>>
>>>> > Depends on how you criticized it and who to and whether you were
>>>> > significant enough for anybody to care. The secret police didn't
>>>> > really have any incentive to round up every drunk who mouthed off in a
>>>> > bar.
>>>>
>>>> >> Going back a generation, people lived under constant
>>>> >> terror, even after Stalin's death.
>>>>
>>>> > Constant terror of what?
>>>>
>>>> >> Kruschev wasn't as bad, but was no saint.
>>>>
>>>> > You sound like the "Americanism vs Communism" text for the propaganda
>>>> > class I was required to sit through in sixth grade.
>>>>
>>>> Communism _was_ pretty much as evil as it was painted by American conservatives.
>>>>
>>>> That they exploited this as a club against loyal Americans who wanted America to
>>>> do more for racial equality, to address poverty, and so on... speaks badly of
>>>> them, but it does not change what Stalin or Khrushchev or Brezhnev or Andropov
>>>> were.
>>>>
>>>> This is the misunderstanding that keeps America divided.
>>>
>>> Since you did not take that propaganda course, you have no basis for
>>> commenting on it. Suffice it to say that much of what they told us
>>> was evil about Communism also occurred in places like France.
>>>
>>> And much of what they told us was evil about Communism is now taking
>>> place in the United States, mostly at the behest of liberals.
>>
>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>
> (mostly) it’s not the right who refuse to let people they don’t agree with
> speak. or attack someone for something they may have done years ago,
> regardless of what they might be doing now. Even Obama is pushing back
> against this “wokeness”. Both sides are doing bad stuff, and it’s scary,
> but it’s pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
Pete, seems to me you're speaking fine.
Maybe you mean the current president who never gets to tell his story?
Seriously, are you really this deluded?
How the hell can you code anything?
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388308 is a reply to message #388304] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 14:03 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:09:58 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>>
>> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
>> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
>> Thais and Vietnamese.
>
> I doubt every American approved of any of that. Same for other people
> living elsewhere.
>
> If someone only knows the form of government they live under, they
> can't make a choice. My high school history teacher had us read Mein
> Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and the US Constitution and Bill of
> Rights. I seem to remember we read some part of the Federalist papers
> to, but I'm not sure. I noticed rather quickly the Kampf and Manifesto
> were idiocy and rather loony in places.
>
> But many nations simply don't allow opposing views of government to be
> read, viewed, etc. by their people. So they can't make choices.
>
Democracy is a fairly rare and mostly very recent development in history.
Most people have been ruled by some kind of despotism, better or worse. I
don’t think many people really care, as long as they can have a decent life
and be left alone to raise their families.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388309 is a reply to message #388307] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 14:03 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:53:59 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:48:16 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>> You kept your mouth
>>>> >>> shut at all times, never criticizing the government, ever (or
>>>> >>> much else), less the police come for you and you're never seen
>>>> >>> again.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Depends on how you criticized it and who to and whether you were
>>>> >> significant enough for anybody to care. The secret police didn't
>>>> >> really have any incentive to round up every drunk who mouthed off in a
>>>> >> bar.
>>>> >
>>>> >>> Going back a generation, people lived under constant
>>>> >>> terror, even after Stalin's death.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Constant terror of what?
>>>> >
>>>> >>> Kruschev wasn't as bad, but was no saint.
>>>> >
>>>> >> You sound like the "Americanism vs Communism" text for the propaganda
>>>> >> class I was required to sit through in sixth grade.
>>>> >
>>>> > Communism _was_ pretty much as evil as it was painted by American conservatives.
>>>> >
>>>> > That they exploited this as a club against loyal Americans who wanted America to
>>>> > do more for racial equality, to address poverty, and so on... speaks badly of
>>>> > them, but it does not change what Stalin or Khrushchev or Brezhnev or Andropov
>>>> > were.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is the misunderstanding that keeps America divided.
>>>>
>>>> Since you did not take that propaganda course, you have no basis for
>>>> commenting on it. Suffice it to say that much of what they told us
>>>> was evil about Communism also occurred in places like France.
>>>>
>>>> And much of what they told us was evil about Communism is now taking
>>>> place in the United States, mostly at the behest of liberals.
>>>
>>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>>
>> (mostly) it’s not the right who refuse to let people they don’t agree with
>> speak. or attack someone for something they may have done years ago,
>> regardless of what they might be doing now. Even Obama is pushing back
>> against this “wokeness”. Both sides are doing bad stuff, and it’s scary,
>> but it’s pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
>
> Pete, seems to me you're speaking fine.
> Maybe you mean the current president who never gets to tell his story?
>
> Seriously, are you really this deluded?
Speakers on college campuses have had their speeches disrupted and have
been prevented from speaking at all. Recently one college professor who was
escorting a conservative speaker on a campus was beaten up. I’ve never been
a Trump fan. Obviously he gets to say whatever he wants. During the last
election it was his supporters who tried to disrupt Democrat events.
If you don’r want to hear someone, don’t go to hear them, but don’t
obstruct those who do want to hear them.
>
> How the hell can you code anything?
>
Not well, any more ;-)
S
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388312 is a reply to message #388297] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 15:17 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>>
>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>
> . Both sides are doing bad stuff, and it’s scary,
> but it’s pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
No, it's not a toss-up, nor has it ever been a toss-up.
Please describe anything you think the Democrats have done
or are doing that is worse than the Republican mess we're in.
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388313 is a reply to message #388309] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 15:20 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Seriously, are you really this deluded?
>
> Speakers on college campuses have had their speeches disrupted and have
> been prevented from speaking at all.
Cites? And, there is no first admendment right to yell fire in
a crowded theater which is what those white supremisists are
doing in those speaches.
> Recently one college professor who was
> escorting a conservative speaker on a campus was beaten up.
Cite from someone other than Fox news?
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388315 is a reply to message #388308] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 16:37 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:03:19 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
> Democracy is a fairly rare and mostly very recent development in history.
> Most people have been ruled by some kind of despotism, better or worse. I
> don’t think many people really care, as long as they can have a decent life
> and be left alone to raise their families.
That's true as far as it goes. But it is also misleading.
Because letting people lead a decent life, and raise their families, is what
democracy is all about. Control over the government means being able to make the
government serve your purposes, rather than those of some despot.
So it allows the people to keep their taxes lower, or get the government to
address crime or other concerns.
Democracy as an end in itself might be something too abstract for ordinary
people to worry about - but it is also a means to an end. And the ends to which
it is a means definitely do matter to ordinary people.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388316 is a reply to message #388309] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 17:54 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:53:59 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:48:16 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>> You kept your mouth
>>>> >>>> shut at all times, never criticizing the government, ever (or
>>>> >>>> much else), less the police come for you and you're never seen
>>>> >>>> again.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Depends on how you criticized it and who to and whether you were
>>>> >>> significant enough for anybody to care. The secret police didn't
>>>> >>> really have any incentive to round up every drunk who mouthed off in a
>>>> >>> bar.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>> Going back a generation, people lived under constant
>>>> >>>> terror, even after Stalin's death.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Constant terror of what?
>>>> >>
>>>> >>>> Kruschev wasn't as bad, but was no saint.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> You sound like the "Americanism vs Communism" text for the propaganda
>>>> >>> class I was required to sit through in sixth grade.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Communism _was_ pretty much as evil as it was painted by American conservatives.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> That they exploited this as a club against loyal Americans who wanted America to
>>>> >> do more for racial equality, to address poverty, and so on... speaks badly of
>>>> >> them, but it does not change what Stalin or Khrushchev or Brezhnev or Andropov
>>>> >> were.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> This is the misunderstanding that keeps America divided.
>>>> >
>>>> > Since you did not take that propaganda course, you have no basis for
>>>> > commenting on it. Suffice it to say that much of what they told us
>>>> > was evil about Communism also occurred in places like France.
>>>> >
>>>> > And much of what they told us was evil about Communism is now taking
>>>> > place in the United States, mostly at the behest of liberals.
>>>>
>>>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>>>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>>>
>>> (mostly) it’s not the right who refuse to let people they don’t agree with
>>> speak. or attack someone for something they may have done years ago,
>>> regardless of what they might be doing now. Even Obama is pushing back
>>> against this “wokeness”. Both sides are doing bad stuff, and it’s scary,
>>> but it’s pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
>>
>> Pete, seems to me you're speaking fine.
>> Maybe you mean the current president who never gets to tell his story?
>>
>> Seriously, are you really this deluded?
>
> Speakers on college campuses have had their speeches disrupted and have
> been prevented from speaking at all. Recently one college professor who was
> escorting a conservative speaker on a campus was beaten up. I’ve never been
> a Trump fan. Obviously he gets to say whatever he wants. During the last
> election it was his supporters who tried to disrupt Democrat events.
>
> If you don’r want to hear someone, don’t go to hear them, but don’t
> obstruct those who do want to hear them.
Sounds like you've reversed your original claim.
>> How the hell can you code anything?
>
> Not well, any more ;-)
Sorry to hear that.
I've been retired for almost 4 years now, but don't have any issues
writing code. I'm putting together some Python code right now.
I was unsure how age would affect my ability, but I don't sense any
difference. Going to be 74 in a few weeks.
I've also shifted into high gear at the gym. I've been strength
training for the last year. I was unsure whether that kind of
exercise would help, but I think I'm making progress despite my age.
No excess body fat and the amount of iron I can push keeps increasing.
So, not sure what your issues are but I know exercise helps.
I think all this "eat healthy" stuff is a bunch of crap.
I eat what I want, just in moderation.
Check this guy out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGgoCm1hofM
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388318 is a reply to message #388312] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 18:05 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>
>>>
>>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>>
>> . Both sides are doing bad stuff, and it’s scary,
>> but it’s pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
>
> No, it's not a toss-up, nor has it ever been a toss-up.
>
> Please describe anything you think the Democrats have done
> or are doing that is worse than the Republican mess we're in.
>
>
Obviously, since the Republicans control the Senate and the White House,
they have a lot more chances to cause problems, but you can look at Tulsi
Gabbard who thinks Basher Assad is a wonderful humanitarian, or Elizabeth
Warren, with a health plan she can’t explain how to fund, and you can see
that if the Democrats were in power we’d be in a worse mess. Also,
political correctness would run amok.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388319 is a reply to message #388301] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 19:29 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:09:58 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>
> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
> Thais and Vietnamese.
So you don't really care whether the people being "saved" want to be
saved? So how are you better than the Spanish Inquisition?
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388320 is a reply to message #388315] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 19:31 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:37:28 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:03:19 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Democracy is a fairly rare and mostly very recent development in history.
>> Most people have been ruled by some kind of despotism, better or worse. I
>> dont think many people really care, as long as they can have a decent life
>> and be left alone to raise their families.
>
> That's true as far as it goes. But it is also misleading.
>
> Because letting people lead a decent life, and raise their families, is what
> democracy is all about. Control over the government means being able to make the
> government serve your purposes, rather than those of some despot.
>
> So it allows the people to keep their taxes lower, or get the government to
> address crime or other concerns.
>
> Democracy as an end in itself might be something too abstract for ordinary
> people to worry about - but it is also a means to an end. And the ends to which
> it is a means definitely do matter to ordinary people.
Quadi, go experience a war first hand and then let us know how that's
better than living under a heavy-handed government.
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388321 is a reply to message #388319] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 20:47 |
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Originally posted by: jmreno
On 11/4/2019 4:29 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:09:58 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>>
>> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
>> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
>> Thais and Vietnamese.
>
> So you don't really care whether the people being "saved" want to be
> saved? So how are you better than the Spanish Inquisition?
>
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsefeg
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388322 is a reply to message #388294] |
Mon, 04 November 2019 21:32 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> And would the Thais have been worse off with a home-grown Communist
> government than with the US bombing them to rubble to "save" them?
mcnamara was lemay's staff planning fire bombing cities in ww2, left fom
the auto industry and came back as secdef for vietnam ... where laos
become the most bombed country in the world
http://legaciesofwar.org/about-laos/secret-war-laos/
From 1964 to 1973, the U.S. dropped more than two million tons of
ordnance on Laos during 580,000 bombing missions -- equal to a
planeload of bombs every 8 minutes, 24-hours a day, for 9 years --
making Laos the most heavily bombed country per capita in history
Watch the US Drop 2.5 Million Tons of Bombs on Laos; Picturing the
deadly legacy of America's secret war in the world's most bombed-out
country.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/03/laos-vietnam-war -us-bombing-uxo
The Road Not Taken: Edward Lansdale and the American Tragedy in Vietnam
https://www.amazon.com/Road-Not-Taken-Lansdale-American-eboo k/dp/B073VXL9RV/
pg459/loc8358-60: A few years later, at the height of the American war
in 1968, an anonymous Army major would be quoted saying, “It became
necessary to destroy the town to save it.” The philosophy embodied in
those chilling words was already evident in Operation Starlite.
Just and Unjust Wars
https://www.amazon.com/Just-Unjust-Wars-Historical-Illustrat ions-ebook/dp/B00PSSCSZO/
pg191/loc4169-72: In August 1967, during Operation Benton, the
“pacification” camps became so full that Army units were ordered not to
“generate” any more refugees. The Army complied. But search and destroy
operations continued. Only now the peasants were not warned before an
air-strike was called on their village. They were killed in their
villages because there was no room for them in the swamped pacification
camps.
pg192/loc4188-89: But in this case, the argument is clear, for the
defense of resettlement comes down finally to a claim something like
that made by an American officer with reference to the town of Ben Tre:
we had to destroy the town in order to save it.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388324 is a reply to message #388320] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 00:53 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:31:11 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> Quadi, go experience a war first hand and then let us know how that's
> better than living under a heavy-handed government.
Tyranny can last for generations; wars usually end quickly. People had surgery
even before there were anaesthetics.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388325 is a reply to message #388319] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 00:58 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:29:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> So you don't really care whether the people being "saved" want to be
> saved? So how are you better than the Spanish Inquisition?
I should have addressed the fundamental misconception here earlier.
I was trying to defend the foreign policy of the United States from what I felt
was undeserved criticism, not to advocate adventurism as a foreign policy.
Now, if the United States had a mind-control ray it could use on Kim Jong Un,
Vladimir Putin, and Xi Jinping, so as to fix matters in much the same way that
World War II would have been prevented by the substitution of a certain barber
for one Adenoid Hynkel...
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388326 is a reply to message #388315] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 01:33 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> Because letting people lead a decent life, and raise their families, is what
> democracy is all about. Control over the government means being able to make
> the government serve your purposes, rather than those of some despot.
Your purposes might not be the same as mine. And any despot worth his salt
knows how to exploit the difference. Consider gerrymandering, for instance.
For democracy to work, it requires people of intelligence who consider
the long-term good of all, rather than their own short-term greed.
I fear that the median intelligence of the populace is falling
below the level required to make democracy work. It was a good
experiment, but it's probably doomed to failure.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388328 is a reply to message #388321] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 05:40 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-11-05, jmreno <none@znet.com> wrote:
> On 11/4/2019 4:29 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:09:58 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>>>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>>>
>>> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
>>> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
>>> Thais and Vietnamese.
>>
>> So you don't really care whether the people being "saved" want to be
>> saved? So how are you better than the Spanish Inquisition?
>>
>
> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
>
> https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xsefeg
>
>
Story I heard starring President Mobutu of Zaire,
He is sitting watching TV one night, and the phone rings, it is another
African Dictator, who is in a panic.
"They are coming up the road from the City, carrying flaming torchess and
tyres, what will I do?."
"Thats where you made your mistake, there should be no road from th City
to your mansion. Get the helicopter ready."
I remember Peter Ustinov as Nero in 'Quo Vadis', fun actor.
--
Maus@ireland.xxx
Will rant for food.
You are taking the IPCC, right?
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388329 is a reply to message #388325] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 05:42 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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On 2019-11-05, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:29:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> So you don't really care whether the people being "saved" want to be
>> saved? So how are you better than the Spanish Inquisition?
>
> I should have addressed the fundamental misconception here earlier.
>
> I was trying to defend the foreign policy of the United States from what I felt
> was undeserved criticism, not to advocate adventurism as a foreign policy.
>
> Now, if the United States had a mind-control ray it could use on Kim Jong Un,
> Vladimir Putin, and Xi Jinping, so as to fix matters in much the same way that
> World War II would have been prevented by the substitution of a certain barber
> for one Adenoid Hynkel...
>
> John Savard
The US has a foreign policy?
--
Maus@ireland.xxx
Will rant for food.
You are taking the IPCC, right?
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388330 is a reply to message #388315] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 05:42 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:37:28 -0800 (PST)
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:03:19 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Democracy is a fairly rare and mostly very recent development in
>> history. Most people have been ruled by some kind of despotism, better
>> or worse. I don’t think many people really care, as long as they can
>> have a decent life and be left alone to raise their families.
Agreed - but noting that despotism often means that many people
don't get to have a decent life and be left alone because the despot
chooses to interfere.
> That's true as far as it goes. But it is also misleading.
>
> Because letting people lead a decent life, and raise their families, is
> what democracy is all about.
In theory.
> Control over the government
All too often falls to the charismatic and manipulative.
> means being able to make the government serve your purposes, rather than
> those of some despot.
Yes but see above, the saving grace is term limits which limits the
influence of even the most charismatic and manipulative - but perhaps the
same result could be achieved with 'absolute dictator for four years or
until assassinated' - this hasn't been tried so we don't know.
> So it allows the people to keep their taxes lower, or get the government
> to address crime or other concerns.
>
> Democracy as an end in itself might be something too abstract for
> ordinary people to worry about - but it is also a means to an end. And
> the ends to which it is a means definitely do matter to ordinary people.
Agreed, but I note that democracy does have its problems, most
significantly the tendency for charisma and lies to override honesty and
good intentions as well as a certain tendency to corruption and cronyism.
It might be the best we have but we certainly shouldn't stop
looking for a better solution because the best we have is none too good.
I rather like Heinlein's suggestion of treating public office like
jury duty, you stand to get randomly selected to serve unless you manage to
disqualify yourself as unfit to serve. I'd be inclined to add a public vote
at the end of your term that determines the size of your 'thank you' reward
ranging from life imprisonment to luxury for three generations with a sharp
peak around about 12 months average income.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388333 is a reply to message #388330] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 08:20 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 4:00:17 AM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> I rather like Heinlein's suggestion of treating public office like
> jury duty, you stand to get randomly selected to serve unless you manage to
> disqualify yourself as unfit to serve.
Of course, that wasn't original: the ancient Greeks did that for some offices.
I doubt that this is a solution, although it does help to prevent politicians from
falling below average.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388335 is a reply to message #388326] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 08:30 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 11:34:15 PM UTC-7, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> For democracy to work, it requires people of intelligence who consider
> the long-term good of all, rather than their own short-term greed.
> I fear that the median intelligence of the populace is falling
> below the level required to make democracy work. It was a good
> experiment, but it's probably doomed to failure.
There is the quip that the last person to choose for a political office is
someone who wants it.
The many failed attempts to establish democracy in the Third World indeed have
this as their basic cause. A manipulative politician exploits divisions in
society, gets elected, and makes himself dictator.
Checks and balances, or a wise monarch, can make this harder, but what *really*
serves as a roadblock in the industrialized nations are a police and army that
are loyal to democracy and the Constitution and thus poor tools for the tyrant.
That voters will consider their economic self-interest first is almost to be
expected; the fact that democracy is representative, rather than direct, in the
industrialized nations had been enough to contain it. How did that work? Well,
for the office of chief executive, voters would not elect, and political parties
would not put forward, candidates who didn't show signs of competence.
That seems to be what has broken down at present.
Thus, my main issue is that it's not as if there has been a retreat from the
Jeffersonian ideal; it never had been attained. But the industrialized
democracies managed even in its absence.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388336 is a reply to message #388301] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 08:37 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>
> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
> Thais and Vietnamese.
I'm an American and I care.
I may be wrong, but I think many of us care.
As a society, I think we need to throw nationalism in the ditch.
It's fine to want the best for yourself, your family, your town, your
state, your country, but also consider the good of humanity.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388338 is a reply to message #388307] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 10:12 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 12:53:33 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:49:08 -0400, J. Clarke
>>> <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 21:32:31 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Saturday, November 2, 2019 at 3:53:59 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> >> On Sat, 2 Nov 2019 13:48:16 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >>> You kept your mouth
>>>> >>> shut at all times, never criticizing the government, ever (or
>>>> >>> much else), less the police come for you and you're never seen
>>>> >>> again.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Depends on how you criticized it and who to and whether you were
>>>> >> significant enough for anybody to care. The secret police didn't
>>>> >> really have any incentive to round up every drunk who mouthed off in a
>>>> >> bar.
>>>> >
>>>> >>> Going back a generation, people lived under constant
>>>> >>> terror, even after Stalin's death.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Constant terror of what?
>>>> >
>>>> >>> Kruschev wasn't as bad, but was no saint.
>>>> >
>>>> >> You sound like the "Americanism vs Communism" text for the propaganda
>>>> >> class I was required to sit through in sixth grade.
>>>> >
>>>> > Communism _was_ pretty much as evil as it was painted by American conservatives.
>>>> >
>>>> > That they exploited this as a club against loyal Americans who wanted America to
>>>> > do more for racial equality, to address poverty, and so on... speaks badly of
>>>> > them, but it does not change what Stalin or Khrushchev or Brezhnev or Andropov
>>>> > were.
>>>> >
>>>> > This is the misunderstanding that keeps America divided.
>>>>
>>>> Since you did not take that propaganda course, you have no basis for
>>>> commenting on it. Suffice it to say that much of what they told us
>>>> was evil about Communism also occurred in places like France.
>>>>
>>>> And much of what they told us was evil about Communism is now taking
>>>> place in the United States, mostly at the behest of liberals.
>>>
>>> You misspelled 'GOP nutcases who emulate Nazism'. Liberals have
>>> nothing to do with our current crises.
>>
>> (mostly) its not the right who refuse to let people they dont agree with
>> speak. or attack someone for something they may have done years ago,
>> regardless of what they might be doing now. Even Obama is pushing back
>> against this wokeness. Both sides are doing bad stuff, and its scary,
>> but its pretty much a toss up which side is worse.
>
> Pete, seems to me you're speaking fine.
> Maybe you mean the current president who never gets to tell his story?
Incoherent babbling isn't an attempt to tell a story.
> Seriously, are you really this deluded?
>
> How the hell can you code anything?
--
Jim
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388339 is a reply to message #388308] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 10:12 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 12:03:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:
> JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 07:09:58 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>>>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>>>
>>> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
>>> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
>>> Thais and Vietnamese.
>>
>> I doubt every American approved of any of that. Same for other people
>> living elsewhere.
>>
>> If someone only knows the form of government they live under, they
>> can't make a choice. My high school history teacher had us read Mein
>> Kampf, the Communist Manifesto, and the US Constitution and Bill of
>> Rights. I seem to remember we read some part of the Federalist papers
>> to, but I'm not sure. I noticed rather quickly the Kampf and Manifesto
>> were idiocy and rather loony in places.
>>
>> But many nations simply don't allow opposing views of government to be
>> read, viewed, etc. by their people. So they can't make choices.
>>
>
> Democracy is a fairly rare and mostly very recent development in history.
> Most people have been ruled by some kind of despotism, better or worse. I
> dont think many people really care, as long as they can have a decent life
> and be left alone to raise their families.
But despots don't leave people alone.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388340 is a reply to message #388313] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 10:14 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 20:20:13 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Seriously, are you really this deluded?
>>
>> Speakers on college campuses have had their speeches disrupted and have
>> been prevented from speaking at all.
>
> Cites? And, there is no first admendment right to yell fire in
> a crowded theater which is what those white supremisists are
> doing in those speaches.
I've seen demonstrations held on campuses when some number of the
student body didn't want that person speaking.
Having been on a university campus, its very possible some of those
demonstrators aren't students.
--
Jim
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388342 is a reply to message #388320] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 10:17 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 19:31:10 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:37:28 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 12:03:19 PM UTC-7, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Democracy is a fairly rare and mostly very recent development in history.
>>> Most people have been ruled by some kind of despotism, better or worse. I
>>> dont think many people really care, as long as they can have a decent life
>>> and be left alone to raise their families.
>>
>> That's true as far as it goes. But it is also misleading.
>>
>> Because letting people lead a decent life, and raise their families, is what
>> democracy is all about. Control over the government means being able to make the
>> government serve your purposes, rather than those of some despot.
>>
>> So it allows the people to keep their taxes lower, or get the government to
>> address crime or other concerns.
>>
>> Democracy as an end in itself might be something too abstract for ordinary
>> people to worry about - but it is also a means to an end. And the ends to which
>> it is a means definitely do matter to ordinary people.
>
> Quadi, go experience a war first hand and then let us know how that's
> better than living under a heavy-handed government.
Are you saying the Allies shouldn't have invaded Festung Europa and
prevailed against the Axis ?
--
Jim
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388344 is a reply to message #388338] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 11:17 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> writes:
> On Mon, 04 Nov 2019 12:53:33 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> Maybe you mean the current president who never gets to tell his story?
>
> Incoherent babbling isn't an attempt to tell a story.
Isn't lying non-stop story telling?
I'm confused as to how they count his lies.
I heard him utter a sentence the other day where there was a lie in
3 words out of the 5 uttered. Is that one lie or 3?
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388345 is a reply to message #388326] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 11:29 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-11-04, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> Because letting people lead a decent life, and raise their families, is what
>> democracy is all about. Control over the government means being able to make
>> the government serve your purposes, rather than those of some despot.
>
> Your purposes might not be the same as mine. And any despot worth his salt
> knows how to exploit the difference. Consider gerrymandering, for instance.
>
> For democracy to work, it requires people of intelligence who consider
> the long-term good of all, rather than their own short-term greed.
> I fear that the median intelligence of the populace is falling
> below the level required to make democracy work. It was a good
> experiment, but it's probably doomed to failure.
>
People who get their political news from Facebook probably don’t rank too
highly on the intelligence scale.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388346 is a reply to message #388329] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 11:29 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
<mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2019-11-05, Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:29:32 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> So you don't really care whether the people being "saved" want to be
>>> saved? So how are you better than the Spanish Inquisition?
>>
>> I should have addressed the fundamental misconception here earlier.
>>
>> I was trying to defend the foreign policy of the United States from what I felt
>> was undeserved criticism, not to advocate adventurism as a foreign policy.
>>
>> Now, if the United States had a mind-control ray it could use on Kim Jong Un,
>> Vladimir Putin, and Xi Jinping, so as to fix matters in much the same way that
>> World War II would have been prevented by the substitution of a certain barber
>> for one Adenoid Hynkel...
>>
>> John Savard
>
>
> The US has a foreign policy?
Not any more. Trump has a foreign policy.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388347 is a reply to message #388336] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 11:29 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> writes:
>
>> On Monday, November 4, 2019 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> The logical error in your post is the assumption that people want the
>>> US to "free" them no matter how many people die in the process.
>>
>> No, because I'm not making that error. The Americans don't care too much how many
>> Russians die in the process of keeping Stalin out, and much the same applies to
>> Thais and Vietnamese.
>
> I'm an American and I care.
> I may be wrong, but I think many of us care.
>
> As a society, I think we need to throw nationalism in the ditch.
> It's fine to want the best for yourself, your family, your town, your
> state, your country, but also consider the good of humanity.
>
I care too, and obviously we wouldn’t be having this discussion if we
didn’t. I tend to disagree with you on a lot if issues.
--
Pete
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388348 is a reply to message #388337] |
Tue, 05 November 2019 11:29 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Seriously, are you really this deluded?
>>>>
>>>> Speakers on college campuses have had their speeches disrupted and have
>>>> been prevented from speaking at all.
>>>
>>> Cites? And, there is no first admendment right to yell fire in
>>> a crowded theater which is what those white supremisists are
>>> doing in those speaches.
>>
>> Goog has lots, here’s just two:
>>
>> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-immigration-prot esters-disrupt-speech-from-acting-dhs-head-mcaleenan
>>
>> https://jewishjournal.com/news/nation/306141/protesters-disr upt-former-israeli-foreign-ministers-duke-speech/
>>
>
> Free speech at work, nicht wahr?
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Recently one college professor who was
>>>> escorting a conservative speaker on a campus was beaten up.
>>>
>>> Cite from someone other than Fox news?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Here’s one from that bastion of right wing journalism, the Washington Post:
>>
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/201 7/03/04/protesters-at-middlebury-college-shout-down-speaker- attack-him-and-a-professor/
>>
>> I don’t make this stuff up, you know.
>
> No, you just take it out of context. One swallow doesn't make a summer.
>
No, the context is obvious. Everyone should be free to speak their mind and
present their ideas, and people should be free to accept or reject them, It
should be like Hyde Park, bring a soapbox and see if anyone wants to
listen. You can show disapproval of someone by demonstrating, but your
demonstration should not disrupt the event or prevent others from
attending.
--
Pete
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