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Re: Versioning file systems [message #387642 is a reply to message #387633] Mon, 07 October 2019 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2019-10-07, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> As far as I know, in typical practice, the offside printing of the
> interpreter was not an issue in production. Cards were not
> edited based on the column content. Rather, the cards served as
> an output document in themselves, such as a payment check or inventory
> record, and the user just read the interpreted results, which could
> be, and often was, anywhere on the card.

Most of the time we didn't bother interpreting cards punched by the
computer, just put them on the shelf until needed for next month's run.
In the rare case we needed to inspect individual cards, we'd search
for a given account number (numerics were easy to read from the holes),
and maybe interpret the card in question once we found it. (This got
tricky for our aged accounts receivable records - we punched half a
dozen amounts straight from the packed decimal fields in memory, in
order to fit everything into 80 columns. Lots of 12-0-1-8-9 punches...)

> A separate IBM machine could print an index number on the edge
> of the card, but I believe this was not the interpreter (should've
> been-edge printing was a useful function.)

The 519 reproducing punch could do this.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387643 is a reply to message #387633] Mon, 07 October 2019 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 5:37:09 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> googlegroups jmfbahciv <jmfbah102162@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> If you wrote a program,
>>> then you had to use the interpreter to print the code on the
>>> card. Reading characters printed by an interpreter made
>>> people want to repunch cards using a keypunch.
>>
>> We'd just read the deck and send the images directly to the printer. Much easer than
>> farting around trying to read the text on the card.
>
> many sites had an old tabulator left around to do '80-80 listings'
> of decks of punched cards. In this way scarce computer time to
> list a deck wasn't needed.
>
> However, sometimes it was necessary to know what was on specific
> cards in order to fix them, and interpretation was necessary.

Or the ability to read the punches.


--
Pete
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387647 is a reply to message #387635] Mon, 07 October 2019 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:

> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 5:37:09 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> googlegroups jmfbahciv <jmfbah102162@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>> If you wrote a program, then you had to use the interpreter to
>>>> print the code on the card. Reading characters printed by an
>>>> interpreter made people want to repunch cards using a keypunch.
>>>
>>> We'd just read the deck and send the images directly to the printer.
>>> Much easer than farting around trying to read the text on the card.
>>
>> many sites had an old tabulator left around to do '80-80 listings' of
>> decks of punched cards. In this way scarce computer time to list a
>> deck wasn't needed.
>>
>> However, sometimes it was necessary to know what was on specific cards
>> in order to fix them, and interpretation was necessary.
>
> Unless you had a hollerith chart handy... Slow, but effective.

I learned Hollerith the first or second day at programming school. It's
simple enough to read. Yes, it was slow.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387648 is a reply to message #387634] Mon, 07 October 2019 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> On Saturday, October 5, 2019 at 7:12:44 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2019-10-05, googlegroups jmfbahciv <jmfbah102162@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 7:54:49 PM UTC-4, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> The 129 keypunch could interpret. At one site we interpreted them on
>>>> >> a 360/20 MFCM that could print 80 columns. I agree interpreters were
>>>> >> a royal pain.
>>>> >
>>>> > And they were so damned slow. I don't think I've ever met
>>>> > a 129. How did they work mechanically? Oh, there must have been
>>>> > a section which read the holes and then sent them on to print on
>>>> > the card?
>>>>
>>>> Yup. Mechanically the 129 looked a lot like a 029; it just had
>>>> more electronics.
>>>>
>>>> > Or did it punch/print another card. I did that if the
>>>> > deck was small (for various flavors of "small") by programming
>>>> > a drum card to dup a card on program one and releasing a card
>>>> > on program 2. Then I would shuffle the deck I wanted to dup
>>>> > with blank cards and then just hit the prog1 and prog2 buttons.
>>>>
>>>> You gotta do what you gotta do...
>>>>
>>>> > Reading in a huge deck and then punching a new one with new numbers
>>>> > wasn't allowed in my shop. Too much waste of cards :-).
>>>>
>>>> I once wrote a program that I'd feed cards from the scrap bin;
>>>> it would select the blanks into a separate stacker. Given the
>>>> amount of waste, I was able to reclaim enough blank cards that
>>>> nobody dared complain about my usage.
>>>
>>> Never thought of that one %-)
>>
>> Somehow reading cards from the scrap bin sounds like a bad idea.
>>
>> I can't recall ever being in a shop that cared about card usage.
>
> I once asked about printing on the backside to save paper. They
> said absolutely not--too much risk of confusion. They pointed
> out the machines were very expensive and the cost of paper
> and cards miniscule in comparison.
>
> Many years later we went to double sided printing since the
> printers could handle it. Sometimes it was a good idea--besides
> saving paper, it made for less bulk and logical for things like
> directories. But sometimes it was a bad idea.

I worked with Xerox 9700s attached to MVS.
We did source code listings, 4-up, duplex.
Paper in landscape mode 8 pages on one 8.5x11 sheet of paper.
It's impressive what high resolution can do.
The listings were pretty readable.
Later we did the same things with IBM 38xx, and at the
end, any copy machine in the building.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387655 is a reply to message #387647] Mon, 07 October 2019 20:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2019-10-07, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:

> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>
>>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 5:37:09 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> googlegroups jmfbahciv <jmfbah102162@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > If you wrote a program, then you had to use the interpreter to
>>>> > print the code on the card. Reading characters printed by an
>>>> > interpreter made people want to repunch cards using a keypunch.
>>>>
>>>> We'd just read the deck and send the images directly to the printer.
>>>> Much easer than farting around trying to read the text on the card.
>>>
>>> many sites had an old tabulator left around to do '80-80 listings' of
>>> decks of punched cards. In this way scarce computer time to list a
>>> deck wasn't needed.
>>>
>>> However, sometimes it was necessary to know what was on specific cards
>>> in order to fix them, and interpretation was necessary.
>>
>> Unless you had a hollerith chart handy... Slow, but effective.
>
> I learned Hollerith the first or second day at programming school. It's
> simple enough to read. Yes, it was slow.

Back beyond the statute of limitations, I used to peek at the card decks
accumulating in a tray going into a batch run at school. Some people
thought that if you turned off the printing while punching the card
with your password, nobody could figure out what it was. I eventually
had more passwords than I knew what to do with, so I set them all to STUPID.

(My cards never left my hand longer than it took to run them through
the reader, and they contained unprintable characters that required
the multi-punch key to punch them.)

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387662 is a reply to message #387655] Mon, 07 October 2019 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2019-10-07, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
>>
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>>>
>>>> On Thursday, October 3, 2019 at 5:37:09 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > googlegroups jmfbahciv <jmfbah102162@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> >
>>>> >> If you wrote a program, then you had to use the interpreter to
>>>> >> print the code on the card. Reading characters printed by an
>>>> >> interpreter made people want to repunch cards using a keypunch.
>>>> >
>>>> > We'd just read the deck and send the images directly to the
>>>> > printer. Much easer than farting around trying to read the text
>>>> > on the card.
>>>>
>>>> many sites had an old tabulator left around to do '80-80 listings'
>>>> of decks of punched cards. In this way scarce computer time to
>>>> list a deck wasn't needed.
>>>>
>>>> However, sometimes it was necessary to know what was on specific
>>>> cards in order to fix them, and interpretation was necessary.
>>>
>>> Unless you had a hollerith chart handy... Slow, but effective.
>>
>> I learned Hollerith the first or second day at programming school.
>> It's simple enough to read. Yes, it was slow.
>
> Back beyond the statute of limitations, I used to peek at the card
> decks accumulating in a tray going into a batch run at school. Some
> people thought that if you turned off the printing while punching the
> card with your password, nobody could figure out what it was. I
> eventually had more passwords than I knew what to do with, so I set
> them all to STUPID.
>
> (My cards never left my hand longer than it took to run them through
> the reader, and they contained unprintable characters that required
> the multi-punch key to punch them.)

I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
asterisk for the unprintable characters...

--
Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387667 is a reply to message #387636] Tue, 08 October 2019 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> In the old days, some sites expected their programmers and
> operators to know Hollerith code

It was useful to know when the 029s were in use and you needed to
punch a couple of cards because the hand punches were usually unused.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387682 is a reply to message #387667] Tue, 08 October 2019 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2019-10-08, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT)
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> In the old days, some sites expected their programmers and
>> operators to know Hollerith code
>
> It was useful to know when the 029s were in use and you needed to
> punch a couple of cards because the hand punches were usually unused.

After lots of frustration trying to get time on a keypunch,
we finally got a hand punch. I taped a notice to it:
"Programmers have priority on this punch!"

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387706 is a reply to message #387641] Tue, 08 October 2019 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 5:00:55 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2019-10-07, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> I once asked about printing on the backside to save paper. They
>> said absolutely not--too much risk of confusion. They pointed
>> out the machines were very expensive and the cost of paper
>> and cards miniscule in comparison.
>
> I used the back side of old listings as scratch paper.
>
>> Many years later we went to double sided printing since the
>> printers could handle it. Sometimes it was a good idea--besides
>> saving paper, it made for less bulk and logical for things like
>> directories. But sometimes it was a bad idea.
>
> One shop I worked in used 8 1/2 x 14 paper, rather than the more
> common 11x17 paper. It was much easier to handle; I talked a
> couple of other shops into converting. The 11x17 paper covered
> your desk pretty thoroughly, and was almost impossible to read
> while riding on a bus.

We got Xerox printers that fit the 11x17 printouts onto an
8.5 x 11" sheet. While the smaller typeface took a little getting
used to, the letter-size paper was a lot easier to handle. As
you say, it fit in standard folders and binders, not the big
bulky nylon post things.


Also, the Xerox printer had lower case characters. Once we
figured out how to get our 3270 terminals to allow lower
case and got used to using them in programs, it made for
more attractive printouts. (In the early days, you had to
be careful you kept the lower case within quoted literals
and definitely not as COBOL or JCL statements.)


One disadvtg of the Xerox printers was that while it could
do special forms, they didn't look as good as pre-printed
special forms. For one thing, it was all monochrome, both
in color and tone. Pre-printed forms, while monochrome,
often were in a contrasting color and were a lot easier
for the recipient to read.

On the other hand, having electronic forms instead of
pre-printed was a huge cost saving in supplies and
inventory control.

Years ago they predicted the paperless office. It took an
awfully long time for it to actually happen, people were
hesitant to give up paper and stuck with it. But once
email and the web became almost universal, it became
practical to transmit info electronically. For instance,
my employer stopped printing paychecks (we had direct
deposit). If you wanted to see your paystub, you had to
go online to do so.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387707 is a reply to message #387662] Tue, 08 October 2019 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:

> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
> asterisk for the unprintable characters...

My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
have.

My memory is that the keypunch machines were all right in normal
service, but any abusive handling would break them.

In the college computer center, many keypunch machines were broken.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387712 is a reply to message #387707] Tue, 08 October 2019 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2019-10-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>
> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
> have.
>
> My memory is that the keypunch machines were all right in normal
> service, but any abusive handling would break them.

I heard that too.

> In the college computer center, many keypunch machines were broken.

I welcomed that, once I learned how to make minor repairs myself.
Then I could skip the long lineups, repair a punch (which usually
just involved clearing a jam), and use it immediately - and leave
it for others when I was done.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387714 is a reply to message #387707] Tue, 08 October 2019 20:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>
> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
> have.

I think this is right, at least fir the 029. You had to turn printing off
for cards with unprintbles. IIRC lster keypunches fixed this.


--
Pete
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387719 is a reply to message #387714] Tue, 08 October 2019 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>>
>> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
>> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
>> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
>> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
>> have.
>
> I think this is right, at least fir the 029. You had to turn printing off
> for cards with unprintbles. IIRC lster keypunches fixed this.

The 029 was announced along with S/360.

I remember the keypunch clunking, but it was firing more hammers at
once. I never thought it was harming the punch but I had little need to
punch multi-punch codes.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387720 is a reply to message #387641] Wed, 09 October 2019 00:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gene Wirchenko is currently offline  Gene Wirchenko
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On 7 Oct 2019 21:00:26 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

[snip]

> If you printed at 8 lines per inch, you could get as much on
> an 8 1/2-inch deep page as on an 11-inch page at 6 lines per
> inch. Two lines more, actually (68 vs. 66 if you don't count
> top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
> of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").

Simon Fraser University used 8 LPI. It was a bit odd to me at
first, but I got to prefer it.

> Another advantage of the smaller paper is that it fit into
> standard legal-size file folders and cabinets, rather than
> requiring expensive specialized gear from Wright Line or whoever.

I liked that it was easier to haul around.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387724 is a reply to message #387714] Wed, 09 October 2019 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 17:59:00 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>>
>> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
>> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
>> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
>> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
>> have.
>
> I think this is right, at least fir the 029. You had to turn printing off
> for cards with unprintbles. IIRC lster keypunches fixed this.

We were told that copying the 1130 cold start card on an 029
wasn't possible and might damage the punch - I never saw it tried.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387726 is a reply to message #387719] Wed, 09 October 2019 09:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>
>>>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>>>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>>>
>>> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
>>> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
>>> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
>>> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
>>> have.
>>
>> I think this is right, at least fir the 029. You had to turn printing off
>> for cards with unprintbles. IIRC lster keypunches fixed this.
>
> The 029 was announced along with S/360.
>
> I remember the keypunch clunking, but it was firing more hammers at
> once. I never thought it was harming the punch but I had little need to
> punch multi-punch codes.
>

Never punched object decks?

--
Pete
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387727 is a reply to message #387707] Wed, 09 October 2019 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>
> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
> have.
>

On the Burruoghs systems, a control card (vs. data) was indicated by
an unprintable character in column 1. Typically a 1-2-3 punch was used.

We used standard 029s.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387728 is a reply to message #387726] Wed, 09 October 2019 10:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>>>> > asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>>>>
>>>> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
>>>> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
>>>> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
>>>> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
>>>> have.
>>>
>>> I think this is right, at least fir the 029. You had to turn printing off
>>> for cards with unprintbles. IIRC lster keypunches fixed this.
>>
>> The 029 was announced along with S/360.
>>
>> I remember the keypunch clunking, but it was firing more hammers at
>> once. I never thought it was harming the punch but I had little need to
>> punch multi-punch codes.
>
> Never punched object decks?

Not on a keypunch.
When I patched an object deck I used VER/REP cards which are NOT punched
with binary characters.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387729 is a reply to message #387641] Wed, 09 October 2019 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: drb

> top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
> of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").

We called that "candy stripe".

De
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387733 is a reply to message #387729] Wed, 09 October 2019 12:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:07:02 -0500
drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:

>> top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
>> of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
>> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>
> We called that "candy stripe".

Greenbar - or just "printer paper".

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387751 is a reply to message #387733] Thu, 10 October 2019 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: drb

>>> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").

> > We called that "candy stripe".

> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".

What we called candy stripe, and what I think "pyjama paper" was
referring to, was three color: alternate orange and green stripes of one
line width with uncolored lines in between. The stuff seemed more
common in shops that used 8.5"x11" paper in landscape format at 8lpi
than places that used ledger size.

The handful of it that I have here says "Auto-Owners" (insurance
company" along the bottom edge.

De
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387752 is a reply to message #387751] Thu, 10 October 2019 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
>>>> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>
>>> We called that "candy stripe".
>
>> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".
>
> What we called candy stripe, and what I think "pyjama paper" was
> referring to, was three color: alternate orange and green stripes of one
> line width with uncolored lines in between. The stuff seemed more
> common in shops that used 8.5"x11" paper in landscape format at 8lpi
> than places that used ledger size.

Yeah, I have some of that (a listing of 'Son of Overlord', written in
HP-3000 SPL printed May 4, 1978. Mine looks like the paper was 8.5" long
by 15" wide (but someone trimmed the right-hand side down to 11" with a
paper cutter before I acquired the listings).

I also have green bar, blue bar and pink bar listings in boxes
somewhere; as well as blank white.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387754 is a reply to message #387712] Thu, 10 October 2019 15:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:12:55 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2019-10-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>>
>> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
>> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
>> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
>> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
>> have.
>>
>> My memory is that the keypunch machines were all right in normal
>> service, but any abusive handling would break them.
>
> I heard that too.
>
>> In the college computer center, many keypunch machines were broken.
>
> I welcomed that, once I learned how to make minor repairs myself.
> Then I could skip the long lineups, repair a punch (which usually
> just involved clearing a jam), and use it immediately - and leave
> it for others when I was done.

In college, jams were common. Someone would try to clear
it and make things worse, often damaging the machine in the
process. Someone had to know what they were doing in
clearing a jam and using that blade.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387755 is a reply to message #387719] Thu, 10 October 2019 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 10:31:29 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:

> The 029 was announced along with S/360.

I'd have to read up on it, but beyond an expanded character
set, I don't think _functionality_ the 029 was much
different than an 026. Obviously the innards were
different, presumably solid state vs. tubes.

Did the 026 have left zero fill? Actually, while that was
a feature on the 029, I very rarely saw it in service. The
029 had it.

I never used or saw a keypunch before the 026, though
they're pictured in various publications. But while IBM
totally revamped its tabulator line in 1948, I think the pre-war
equipment hung around for a number of years. My old boss told
me he ran the pre-war 405 accounting machine in the early 1960s.

It's funny how aesthetic styles change. Undoubtedly the
1948 tabulator products was seen as very modern with its
streamlined curves and gray cabinets. But after about
ten years the 'heavy streamlined' look became dated,
replaced by the geometric straight-lined look. IBM's
7090 and 1401 had more modern styling. I think a few
late model tab machines also had it.


But in 1960s data centers with the modern S/360 there
usually was a sorter and tabulator for utility work
and in comparison they looked positive ancient.


Speaking of keypunches, it was standard practice for input
data to be verified, that is, doublepunched to check for errors.
But once on-line terminals came along, I believe that practice
ceased. I can't help but suspect computer data isn't as good
as a result.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387756 is a reply to message #387751] Thu, 10 October 2019 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:
> What we called candy stripe, and what I think "pyjama paper" was
> referring to, was three color: alternate orange and green stripes of one
> line width with uncolored lines in between. The stuff seemed more
> common in shops that used 8.5"x11" paper in landscape format at 8lpi
> than places that used ledger size.

IBM (red, candy cane) "candy-stripe" documents covers with registered
confidential classification. Each copy of a document was numbered. Each
page of a candy-stripe document had the document copy number embossed in
large print on every page (basically faint background but the number was
large print essentially filling the whole page, with text darker
overprint) with legend "registered confidential, do not copy/reproduce"
on every page.

I had whole set for "extended" 370 referred to as "811" (for Nov1978
publication date, not all of it shows up for initial release for 3081 in
the 80s). they had to be kept under double lock ... and plant site
security would do periodic audits for registered confidential documents.

past posts mentioning registered confidential:
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001i.html#30 IBM OS Timeline?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#8 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2002d.html#9 Security Proportional to Risk (was: IBM Mainframe at home)
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005f.html#42 Moving assembler programs above the line
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2005s.html#26 IEH/IEB/... names?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2006f.html#20 Old PCs--environmental hazard
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#2 WHAT WAS THE PROJECT YOU WERE INVOLVED/PARTICIPATED AT IBM THAT YOU WILL ALWAYS REMEMBER?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2011g.html#12 Clone Processors
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2013.html#61 Was MVS/SE designed to confound Amdahl?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014d.html#1 RSA 2014: Target Breach Has Bigger Impact on Data Security than Snowden, says Vormetric
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2014f.html#27 Complete 360 and 370 systems found
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#63 [CM] What was your first home computer?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017e.html#67 [CM] What was your first home computer?
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2017f.html#35 Hitachi to Deliver New Mainframe Based on IBM z Systems in Japan
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2019e.html#29 IBM History

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387758 is a reply to message #387751] Thu, 10 October 2019 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:09:17 -0500
drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:

>>>> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>
>>> We called that "candy stripe".
>
>> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".
>
> What we called candy stripe, and what I think "pyjama paper" was
> referring to, was three color: alternate orange and green stripes of one
> line width with uncolored lines in between.

Pretty! I never saw that.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387759 is a reply to message #387755] Thu, 10 October 2019 15:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 10:31:29 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>
>> The 029 was announced along with S/360.
>
> I'd have to read up on it, but beyond an expanded character
> set, I don't think _functionality_ the 029 was much
> different than an 026. Obviously the innards were
> different, presumably solid state vs. tubes.

Wikipedia:

The 029's logic consisted of wire contact relays on later models and
reed relays and diodes on SMS cards for early ones.

> Did the 026 have left zero fill? Actually, while that was
> a feature on the 029, I very rarely saw it in service. The
> 029 had it.

Wikipedia says zero fill is an 029 optional feature.
It's hard to imagine how an 026 could have stored numbers waiting for a
tab to then zero fill. I think that would take a boat load of tubes or
relays.

> I never used or saw a keypunch before the 026, though
> they're pictured in various publications. But while IBM
> totally revamped its tabulator line in 1948, I think the pre-war
> equipment hung around for a number of years. My old boss told
> me he ran the pre-war 405 accounting machine in the early 1960s.

Wikipedia:

The IBM 024 Card Punch and IBM 026 Printing Card Punch [19] were
announced in 1949. They were almost identical, with the exception of
the printing mechanism.

So, I do remember 026 type punches without print. They must have been 024s.

> It's funny how aesthetic styles change. Undoubtedly the
> 1948 tabulator products was seen as very modern with its
> streamlined curves and gray cabinets. But after about
> ten years the 'heavy streamlined' look became dated,
> replaced by the geometric straight-lined look. IBM's
> 7090 and 1401 had more modern styling. I think a few
> late model tab machines also had it.

I don't think curved is any less modern than straight.
It's just marketing.

> But in 1960s data centers with the modern S/360 there
> usually was a sorter and tabulator for utility work
> and in comparison they looked positive ancient.

The tab equipment was covered in scratches and dirt.
Which helped with the ancient look.

> Speaking of keypunches, it was standard practice for input
> data to be verified, that is, doublepunched to check for errors.
> But once on-line terminals came along, I believe that practice
> ceased. I can't help but suspect computer data isn't as good
> as a result.

Online data entry can check lots more things that just typing
accuracy. I think that's why no one would set up type this twice
procedure.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387760 is a reply to message #387759] Thu, 10 October 2019 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 10:31:29 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>
>>> The 029 was announced along with S/360.
>>
>> I'd have to read up on it, but beyond an expanded character
>> set, I don't think _functionality_ the 029 was much
>> different than an 026. Obviously the innards were
>> different, presumably solid state vs. tubes.
>
> Wikipedia:
>
> The 029's logic consisted of wire contact relays on later models and
> reed relays and diodes on SMS cards for early ones.
>
>> Did the 026 have left zero fill? Actually, while that was
>> a feature on the 029, I very rarely saw it in service. The
>> 029 had it.
>
> Wikipedia says zero fill is an 029 optional feature.
> It's hard to imagine how an 026 could have stored numbers waiting for a
> tab to then zero fill. I think that would take a boat load of tubes or
> relays.
>
>> I never used or saw a keypunch before the 026, though
>> they're pictured in various publications. But while IBM
>> totally revamped its tabulator line in 1948, I think the pre-war
>> equipment hung around for a number of years. My old boss told
>> me he ran the pre-war 405 accounting machine in the early 1960s.
>
> Wikipedia:
>
> The IBM 024 Card Punch and IBM 026 Printing Card Punch [19] were
> announced in 1949. They were almost identical, with the exception of
> the printing mechanism.
>
> So, I do remember 026 type punches without print. They must have been 024s.
>
>> It's funny how aesthetic styles change. Undoubtedly the
>> 1948 tabulator products was seen as very modern with its
>> streamlined curves and gray cabinets. But after about
>> ten years the 'heavy streamlined' look became dated,
>> replaced by the geometric straight-lined look. IBM's
>> 7090 and 1401 had more modern styling. I think a few
>> late model tab machines also had it.
>
> I don't think curved is any less modern than straight.
> It's just marketing.

It just looked old, probably because the styles changed. The curved look
resembles WWII surplus. The straight-lined stuff looked like Star Trek, but
looks dated itself today.

--
Pete
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387761 is a reply to message #387754] Thu, 10 October 2019 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2019-10-10, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:12:55 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2019-10-08, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In the college computer center, many keypunch machines were broken.
>>
>> I welcomed that, once I learned how to make minor repairs myself.
>> Then I could skip the long lineups, repair a punch (which usually
>> just involved clearing a jam), and use it immediately - and leave
>> it for others when I was done.
>
> In college, jams were common. Someone would try to clear
> it and make things worse, often damaging the machine in the
> process. Someone had to know what they were doing in
> clearing a jam and using that blade.

It was years before I got a card saw of my own, and by that time
I hardly ever needed it. I was able to clear a jammed punch with
a card torn in half lengthwise. I'd slip it into the punch station
around the jammed part, trip the interlocks to fool the keypunch
into thinking it had a whole card at the punch station, then type
random characters while moving the torn card around under the dies.
In all but the very worst cases, this would dislodge the bits of
card that had gotten jammed in there.

Once I was done with that, I'd open the back cover and retrieve
the star wheels which some idiot had torn off by forcing the
program drum onto the spindle without raising them. Voila -
one repaired keypunch.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #387762 is a reply to message #387754] Thu, 10 October 2019 17:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gerard Schildberger is currently offline  Gerard Schildberger
Messages: 163
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 2:05:20 PM UTC-5, hanc wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 8, 2019 at 8:12:55 PM UTC-4, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2019-10-08, hancock4 wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, October 7, 2019 at 10:49:14 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>>>
>>>> I seem to remember the key punch interpreter printed an underlined
>>>> asterisk for the unprintable characters...
>>>
>>> My memory is that of the keypunch making a nasty sound for
>>> an unprintable character, following by the yelling of
>>> the supervisor. We were warned by attempting that would
>>> break the keypunch. I don't remember if it id, but it might
>>> have.
>>>
>>> My memory is that the keypunch machines were all right in normal
>>> service, but any abusive handling would break them.
>>
>> I heard that too.
>>
>>> In the college computer center, many keypunch machines were broken.
>>
>> I welcomed that, once I learned how to make minor repairs myself.
>> Then I could skip the long lineups, repair a punch (which usually
>> just involved clearing a jam), and use it immediately - and leave
>> it for others when I was done.
>
> In college, jams were common. Someone would try to clear
> it and make things worse, often damaging the machine in the
> process. Someone had to know what they were doing in
> clearing a jam and using that blade.

That blade to clear a card punch (or key punch) was called a
card saw. _________________________________ Gerard Schildberger
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388079 is a reply to message #387733] Fri, 25 October 2019 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jan van den Broek is currently offline  Jan van den Broek
Messages: 70
Registered: April 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:10:44 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> schrieb:
> On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:07:02 -0500
> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:
>
>>> top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
>>> of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
>>> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>>
>> We called that "candy stripe".
>
> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".

Zebra
--
A tuna is a way of Liff

Jan v/d Broek
balglaas@xs4all.nl
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388109 is a reply to message #388079] Sat, 26 October 2019 11:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bud Frede

Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> writes:

> Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:10:44 +0100
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> schrieb:
>> On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:07:02 -0500
>> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:
>>
>>>> top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
>>>> of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
>>>> (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>>>
>>> We called that "candy stripe".
>>
>> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".
>
> Zebra

I always heard it called "printer paper" as well. As a student I didn't
really have any other options for printing than the lineprinters that
were in the labs.

Later on I heard that type of paper called "fanfold paper," but that
applied to plain white as well as the paper with pastel green bars on
it.

The lineprinters were always busy printing things out, probably a lot of
which was a waste of paper. (At the beginning of every semester a new
batch of students discovered that they could print out posters of
Snoopy, Opus, other cartoon characters, the Mona Lisa, low-rez nudes,
etc.)

I was taking FORTRAN (77), and our instructor had one of his grad students
write some REXX scripts to help us manage our files and send assignments
in via e-mail. I still had to print out some listings though when I
couldn't get something to work and the terminals were in demand. Then
I'd try to figure it out "offline."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388113 is a reply to message #388109] Sat, 26 October 2019 12:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 11:05:28 -0400, Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com>
wrote:

> Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
>> Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:10:44 +0100
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> schrieb:
>>> On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:07:02 -0500
>>> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:
>>>
>>>> > top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
>>>> > of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
>>>> > (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>>>>
>>>> We called that "candy stripe".
>>>
>>> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".
>>
>> Zebra
>
> I always heard it called "printer paper" as well. As a student I didn't
> really have any other options for printing than the lineprinters that
> were in the labs.
>
> Later on I heard that type of paper called "fanfold paper," but that
> applied to plain white as well as the paper with pastel green bars on
> it.
>
> The lineprinters were always busy printing things out, probably a lot of
> which was a waste of paper. (At the beginning of every semester a new
> batch of students discovered that they could print out posters of
> Snoopy, Opus, other cartoon characters, the Mona Lisa, low-rez nudes,
> etc.)

Mainframes were great wasters of paper, printing out masses of
irrelevant _crap_ with every job. Yeah, there's a useful error
message in there somewhere but good luck finding it.

> I was taking FORTRAN (77), and our instructor had one of his grad students
> write some REXX scripts to help us manage our files and send assignments
> in via e-mail. I still had to print out some listings though when I
> couldn't get something to work and the terminals were in demand. Then
> I'd try to figure it out "offline."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388116 is a reply to message #388113] Sat, 26 October 2019 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2019-10-26, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mainframes were great wasters of paper, printing out masses of
> irrelevant _crap_ with every job. Yeah, there's a useful error
> message in there somewhere but good luck finding it.

True enough. However, the rise of cheap laser printers
meant that _anyone_ can be a great waster of paper -
and usually is. Many people are addicted to paper.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ "Alexa, define 'bugging'."
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388120 is a reply to message #388116] Sat, 26 October 2019 17:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 26 Oct 2019 20:06:41 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

> On 2019-10-26, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mainframes were great wasters of paper, printing out masses of
>> irrelevant _crap_ with every job. Yeah, there's a useful error
>> message in there somewhere but good luck finding it.
>
> True enough. However, the rise of cheap laser printers
> meant that _anyone_ can be a great waster of paper -
> and usually is. Many people are addicted to paper.

This is also true. Back when I started as an engineer, if you wanted
something on paper you either wrote it out longhand or got in line for
the secretary who typing as fast as she could was good for maybe 6
pages an hour. Now every department has a printer that does 25 pages
a minute.
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388121 is a reply to message #388109] Sat, 26 October 2019 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
>> Wed, 9 Oct 2019 17:10:44 +0100
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> schrieb:
>>> On Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:07:02 -0500
>>> drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) wrote:
>>>
>>>> > top and bottom margins). The closer spacing wasn't too much
>>>> > of a problem if you used paper with pastel bars printed on it
>>>> > (a.k.a. "pyjama paper").
>>>>
>>>> We called that "candy stripe".
>>>
>>> Greenbar - or just "printer paper".
>>
>> Zebra
>
> I always heard it called "printer paper" as well. As a student I didn't
> really have any other options for printing than the lineprinters that
> were in the labs.
>
> Later on I heard that type of paper called "fanfold paper," but that
> applied to plain white as well as the paper with pastel green bars on
> it.
>
> The lineprinters were always busy printing things out, probably a lot of
> which was a waste of paper. (At the beginning of every semester a new
> batch of students discovered that they could print out posters of
> Snoopy, Opus, other cartoon characters, the Mona Lisa, low-rez nudes,
> etc.)

That could be justified as “familiarizing the students with the computer”,
although if this is the same time period as the next paragraph (Rexx) they
were probably already familiar with them.

>
> I was taking FORTRAN (77), and our instructor had one of his grad students
> write some REXX scripts to help us manage our files and send assignments
> in via e-mail. I still had to print out some listings though when I
> couldn't get something to work and the terminals were in demand. Then
> I'd try to figure it out "offline."
>
>



--
Pete
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388122 is a reply to message #388116] Sat, 26 October 2019 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-10-26, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Mainframes were great wasters of paper, printing out masses of
>> irrelevant _crap_ with every job. Yeah, there's a useful error
>> message in there somewhere but good luck finding it.
>
> True enough. However, the rise of cheap laser printers
> meant that _anyone_ can be a great waster of paper -
> and usually is. Many people are addicted to paper.
>

Wife is always chiding me for printing out pictures for a school project 3-
or 4-to a page. If you have to cut them out anyhow, why waste several
sheets of paper when one will do?

--
Pete
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388124 is a reply to message #388120] Sat, 26 October 2019 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:

> On 26 Oct 2019 20:06:41 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-10-26, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mainframes were great wasters of paper, printing out masses of
>>> irrelevant _crap_ with every job. Yeah, there's a useful error
>>> message in there somewhere but good luck finding it.
>>
>> True enough. However, the rise of cheap laser printers
>> meant that _anyone_ can be a great waster of paper -
>> and usually is. Many people are addicted to paper.
>
> This is also true. Back when I started as an engineer, if you wanted
> something on paper you either wrote it out longhand or got in line for
> the secretary who typing as fast as she could was good for maybe 6
> pages an hour. Now every department has a printer that does 25 pages
> a minute.

I NEVER liked dealing with typists.
For years I used an 80-80 like program I wrote to produce documentation.
If the reader didn't like all upper case, that was too bad.

As the years went by, versions of that program became more and more capable.
When we finally got PSF printers, I was able to bit-map my handwriting
and produce signed documents.

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Dan Espen
Re: Versioning file systems [message #388131 is a reply to message #388121] Sun, 27 October 2019 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:13:43 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> although if this is the same time period as the next paragraph (Rexx)
> they were probably already familiar with them.

I've been using REXX for nearly 30 years (mainly on UNIX).


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Re: Versioning file systems [message #388132 is a reply to message #388131] Sun, 27 October 2019 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
Bob Eager <news0073@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:13:43 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> although if this is the same time period as the next paragraph (Rexx)
>> they were probably already familiar with them.
>
> I've been using REXX for nearly 30 years (mainly on UNIX).
>
>

But widespread use of computers, and home computers, goes back a lot
longer. Kids most likely weren’t scared of them and had some idea of what
they could do.

(I started using Rexx on VM when it first came out. Fortunately I never had
to spend much time with EXEC or EXEC2, though I did use CLISTS on TSO.)

--
Pete
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