| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376376 is a reply to message #376374] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 08:54   |
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Originally posted by: AndyW
On 21/11/2018 13:04, Peter Flass wrote:
> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 1:44:08 AM UTC-7, Jan van den Broek wrote:
>>
>>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>
>> Yorkshiremen are the native inhabitants of Yorkshire,
>
> What about Yorkshirewomen?
Yorkshirewomen?
You were lucky. In my days we had to make our own Yorshirewomen out of a
dress, a sack of coal and some straw.
Kids today.....
Andy
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376381 is a reply to message #376374] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 10:32 |
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Originally posted by: Chris
On 11/21/18 13:04, Peter Flass wrote:
> Quadibloc<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 1:44:08 AM UTC-7, Jan van den Broek wrote:
>>
>>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>
>> Yorkshiremen are the native inhabitants of Yorkshire,
>
> What about Yorkshirewomen?
Independent, practical, strong willed and don't take any
flannel either. Pity all women are not all like that now...
Chris
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376382 is a reply to message #376357] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 10:36 |
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Originally posted by: Chris
On 11/21/18 08:51, maus wrote:
> On 2018-11-20, Chris<xxx.syseng.yyy@gfsys.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 11/20/18 09:19, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:31:29 MET
>>> Jan van den Broek<fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Gordon Henderson<gordon+usenet@drogon.net> schrieb:
>>>> > In article<coaGD.225184$Nt6.90066@fx19.am4>,
>>
>> From Bradford, Yorks originally and they say you can take the man out
>> of Yorkshire, but not the Yorkshire out of the man. Don't suffer fools
>> gladly, nor take any flannel from anyone :-)...
>>
>> Chris
>
>
>
> I wandered around that area maybe 50+- years ago. "Last of the Summer Wine",
> thing. Noawdays, I believe, a knowledge of Urdu helps.
>
Not sure I would want to live there now. They tore the heart and
soul out of the center in the 1960's, replacing it with brutalist
slab concrete buildings devoid of character. All in the name of
progress and shame about their history...
Chris
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376383 is a reply to message #376368] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 10:57 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:31:59 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
<notsaying@invalid.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
> <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-11-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:31:29 MET
>>> Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> schrieb:
>>>>
>>>> > In article <coaGD.225184$Nt6.90066@fx19.am4>,
>>>> > AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Even the tablet computers on Start Trek were the size of phone
>>>> >> books.
>>>> >
>>>> > Cue snowflake millenial comment: "Whats a phone book?"
>>>> >
>>>> > ... although this gets us dangerously close to the 4 Yorkshiremen
>>>> > sketch...
>>>>
>>>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch
>>>
>>> Kids o' today! In my day we 'ad to walk five miles to the
>>> library to
>>> look things up in books when we wanted to know something.
>>
>> You had books? Luxury! We had to look things up on stone tablets.
>> The librarian dropped one and put a hole in the floor.
>>
>
> Right. When I were a lad we 'ad to get oop at 4am in the morning, (TM
> Mike Oldfield), chop reeds for 4 hours, mulch them down, press onto a
> frame, fan dry for 4 hours and *then* catch a squid and an eagle!
Well, _we_ not only had to do all that but we had to go find a
suitable piece of flint and knap a penknife from it before we could
trim the eagle feather.
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376390 is a reply to message #376383] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 12:51 |
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Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:57:31 GMT, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:31:59 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
> <notsaying@invalid.org> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
>> <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-11-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:31:29 MET
>>>> Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> > Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> schrieb:
>>>> >
>>>> >> In article <coaGD.225184$Nt6.90066@fx19.am4>,
>>>> >> AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Even the tablet computers on Start Trek were the size of phone
>>>> >>> books.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Cue snowflake millenial comment: "Whats a phone book?"
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ... although this gets us dangerously close to the 4 Yorkshiremen
>>>> >> sketch...
>>>> >
>>>> > What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch
>>>>
>>>> Kids o' today! In my day we 'ad to walk five miles to the
>>>> library to
>>>> look things up in books when we wanted to know something.
>>>
>>> You had books? Luxury! We had to look things up on stone tablets.
>>> The librarian dropped one and put a hole in the floor.
>>>
>>
>> Right. When I were a lad we 'ad to get oop at 4am in the morning, (TM
>> Mike Oldfield), chop reeds for 4 hours, mulch them down, press onto a
>> frame, fan dry for 4 hours and *then* catch a squid and an eagle!
>
> Well, _we_ not only had to do all that but we had to go find a
> suitable piece of flint and knap a penknife from it before we could
> trim the eagle feather.
>
Looxurt; we had nowt but a stick and clay tablets. It took ages to hone
those eagle feathers.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376391 is a reply to message #376376] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 12:53 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-11-21, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> On 21/11/2018 13:04, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 1:44:08 AM UTC-7, Jan van den Broek wrote:
>>>
>>>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>
>>> Yorkshiremen are the native inhabitants of Yorkshire,
>>
>> What about Yorkshirewomen?
>
> Yorkshirewomen?
> You were lucky. In my days we had to make our own Yorshirewomen out of a
> dress, a sack of coal and some straw.
> Kids today.....
>
>
> Andy
>
>
--
Maus@ireland.com
Will Rant For Food
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376393 is a reply to message #376385] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 12:55 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:04:59 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 1:44:08 AM UTC-7, Jan van den Broek wrote:
>>>
>>>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>
>>> Yorkshiremen are the native inhabitants of Yorkshire,
>>
>> What about Yorkshirewomen?
>
> They obtain TARDISes and go around saving the Universe.
>
> If you don't follow Doctor Who, the current Doctor is portrayed by a
> Yorkshirewoman.
>
I knew she was a Brit (obviously) but my localizer isn't any more
fine-grained than that.
--
Pete
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376408 is a reply to message #376390] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 15:24 |
Richard Thiebaud
Messages: 222
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 11/21/18 12:51 PM, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:57:31 GMT, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:31:59 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
>> <notsaying@invalid.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
>>> <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-11-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:31:29 MET
>>>> > Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> >> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> schrieb:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> In article <coaGD.225184$Nt6.90066@fx19.am4>,
>>>> >>> AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Even the tablet computers on Start Trek were the size of phone
>>>> >>>> books.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Cue snowflake millenial comment: "Whats a phone book?"
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> ... although this gets us dangerously close to the 4 Yorkshiremen
>>>> >>> sketch...
>>>> >>
>>>> >> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>> >
>>>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch
>>>> >
>>>> > Kids o' today! In my day we 'ad to walk five miles to the
>>>> > library to
>>>> > look things up in books when we wanted to know something.
>>>>
>>>> You had books? Luxury! We had to look things up on stone tablets.
>>>> The librarian dropped one and put a hole in the floor.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Right. When I were a lad we 'ad to get oop at 4am in the morning, (TM
>>> Mike Oldfield), chop reeds for 4 hours, mulch them down, press onto a
>>> frame, fan dry for 4 hours and *then* catch a squid and an eagle!
>>
>> Well, _we_ not only had to do all that but we had to go find a
>> suitable piece of flint and knap a penknife from it before we could
>> trim the eagle feather.
>>
>
> Looxurt; we had nowt but a stick and clay tablets. It took ages to hone
> those eagle feathers.
>
Sticks? You had Sticks?
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376413 is a reply to message #376408] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 16:03 |
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Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 20:24:56 GMT, Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2
@aol.com> wrote:
> On 11/21/18 12:51 PM, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:57:31 GMT, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:31:59 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"
>>> <notsaying@invalid.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 18:40:43 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
>>>> <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 2018-11-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 09:31:29 MET
>>>> >> Jan van den Broek <fortytwo@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> Mon, 12 Nov 2018 10:06:52 -0000 (UTC)
>>>> >>> Gordon Henderson <gordon+usenet@drogon.net> schrieb:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> In article <coaGD.225184$Nt6.90066@fx19.am4>,
>>>> >>>> AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> Even the tablet computers on Start Trek were the size of phone
>>>> >>>>> books.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Cue snowflake millenial comment: "Whats a phone book?"
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> ... although this gets us dangerously close to the 4
Yorkshiremen
>>>> >>>> sketch...
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Yorkshiremen_sketch
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Kids o' today! In my day we 'ad to walk five miles to the
>>>> >> library to
>>>> >> look things up in books when we wanted to know something.
>>>> >
>>>> > You had books? Luxury! We had to look things up on stone tablets.
>>>> > The librarian dropped one and put a hole in the floor.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Right. When I were a lad we 'ad to get oop at 4am in the morning,
(TM
>>>> Mike Oldfield), chop reeds for 4 hours, mulch them down, press onto
a
>>>> frame, fan dry for 4 hours and *then* catch a squid and an eagle!
>>>
>>> Well, _we_ not only had to do all that but we had to go find a
>>> suitable piece of flint and knap a penknife from it before we could
>>> trim the eagle feather.
>>>
>>
>> Looxurt; we had nowt but a stick and clay tablets. It took ages to
hone
>> those eagle feathers.
>>
> Sticks? You had Sticks?
>
Nah, just the one to go round t'whole village. You'd have to queue up for
whole day, just to get 5 minutes use of it, and three weeks later you'd
get a message back that you 'ad syntax error in line 6.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376414 is a reply to message #376385] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 16:07 |
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Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 16:08:53 GMT, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:04:59 -0700, Peter Flass
> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 1:44:08 AM UTC-7, Jan van den Broek
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>
>>> Yorkshiremen are the native inhabitants of Yorkshire,
>>
>> What about Yorkshirewomen?
>
> They obtain TARDISes and go around saving the Universe.
>
> If you don't follow Doctor Who, the current Doctor is portrayed by a
> Yorkshirewoman.
>
13th time looky!
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376426 is a reply to message #376408] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 16:59 |
Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:24:56 -0500, Richard Thiebaud wrote:
>
> On 11/21/18 12:51 PM, Kerr-Mudd,John wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 15:57:31 GMT, J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, _we_ not only had to do all that but we had to go find a
>>> suitable piece of flint and knap a penknife from it before we could
>>> trim the eagle feather.
>>>
>> Looxurt; we had nowt but a stick and clay tablets. It took ages to hone
>> those eagle feathers.
>>
> Sticks? You had Sticks?
Some years ago a mate was talking about floppy disks and somebody else
replied "Floppy disks?! We used punched card readers". Somebody else
replied "Punched card readers?! You had card readers?! We used our teeth
to punch holes into paper when writing software".
--
Andreas
My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #376439 is a reply to message #376393] |
Wed, 21 November 2018 19:03 |
Andy Leighton
Messages: 203
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 10:55:26 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 21 Nov 2018 06:04:59 -0700, Peter Flass
>> <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, November 20, 2018 at 1:44:08 AM UTC-7, Jan van den Broek wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > What are "Yorkshiremen"?
>>>>
>>>> Yorkshiremen are the native inhabitants of Yorkshire,
>>>
>>> What about Yorkshirewomen?
>>
>> They obtain TARDISes and go around saving the Universe.
>>
>> If you don't follow Doctor Who, the current Doctor is portrayed by a
>> Yorkshirewoman.
>
> I knew she was a Brit (obviously) but my localizer isn't any more
> fine-grained than that.
If you want more fine-grained than Yorkshire - it is a Huddersfield
accent (Jodie Whittaker's native accent). There are very distinct
differences between various Yorkshire accents. For example Sean Bean
uses his Sheffield accent in Game of Thrones (well in most things).
Wallace (in Wallace and Gromit) also has a different Yorkshire accent
even though the character is a Lancastrian.
--
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
- Douglas Adams
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #376757 is a reply to message #376628] |
Tue, 27 November 2018 02:16 |
rpw3
Messages: 191
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Alfred Falk <aefalk@telus.net> wrote:
+---------------
| > [All/majority] of programmers that developed in machine code
| > and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died?
|
| I can't speak for the majority but I was writing in Assembler for various
| machines in the late 60's through to the early 80's. (IBM 1620, DEC PDP-9,
| PDP-10, DG Nova and Eclipse, among others.)
+---------------
Similarly, 60's through 90's: IBM 1410, LGP-30, IBM 1620, DEC PDP-10,
DEC PDP-9, DEC PDP-8, DEC PDP-11, Zilog Z80, Motorola 68000, Intel x86,
AMD 29000 & 29030, Intel XScale (ARM5), Microchip PIC16 series,
MIPS R3000 & R4650, etc., etc.
+---------------
| I'm pretty sure I'm still alive.
+---------------
Ditto. ;-}
-Rob
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assem [message #377397 is a reply to message #375377] |
Tue, 04 December 2018 07:42 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-11-22, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
> (+ My house is ~120 years old.)
Perhaps I should switch fonts. That tilde looked an awful lot like a
minus sign until I looked more closely.
I was scratching my head wondering about a house with a negative age.
Niklas
--
If infinite rednecks fired infinite shotguns at an infinite number of road
signs, they'd eventually create all the great literary works of the world in
braille. --Discordian Quote File
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386721 is a reply to message #375377] |
Fri, 06 September 2019 02:38 |
James Dow Allen
Messages: 33
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Member |
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On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 1:56:06 AM UTC+7, françai s wrote:
> All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died?
I programmed the CDC 6400/6600 in the late 1960's. Mostly Fortran, but a fair amount of Compass Assembly code also.
The earliest machine code for me was a very simple program for IBM 1620 in '65 or '66. I didn't write it in an assembly language -- I composed it in "absolute" machine code, using the Multiple-punch option on a card punch! (During the 1970's I developed machine code for about a dozen different machines.)
And I'm not quite 70 years old yet.
James D. Allen
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386736 is a reply to message #386721] |
Fri, 06 September 2019 15:50 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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James Dow Allen <jdallen2000@yahoo.com> writes:
> I programmed the CDC 6400/6600 in the late 1960's. Mostly Fortran,
> but a fair amount of Compass Assembly code also.
>
> The earliest machine code for me was a very simple program for IBM
> 1620 in '65 or '66. I didn't write it in an assembly language -- I
> composed it in "absolute" machine code, using the Multiple-punch
> option on a card punch! (During the 1970's I developed machine code
> for about a dozen different machines.)
Spring semester, I took inro to computers/fortran ... student card decks
were run on 709 tape-to-tape with 1401 front-end unit<->tape and tapes
manually moved between 1401 & 709 drives. That summer 1401 was replaced
with 360/30 (part of transition from 709/1401 to 360/67 and tss/360) and
I got a summer job rewritting 1401 MPIO in 360/30 assembler. Univ.
shutdown datacenter from 8am Sat until 8am Mon and I had the whole
machine room to myself for 48hrs. I got to design & implement my own
monitor, devices drivers, interrupt handlers, storage management, error
recovery, console interface, etc. Eventually had tray of 2000 cards. It
had assembler conditional ... either assembled stand-alone version
(loaded with BPS loader, which took 30mins to assemble on OS/360 on the
360/30) or OS/360 version which used OS/360 macros for input/output
(took hour to assemble, each DCB macro taking 6mins assemble).
I got fairly adept at reading holes in punch card output "TXT" deck ...
fanning deck looking for TXT card with the hex displacement address and
then doing card copy in 026 keypunch ... multi-punching hex
patch/changes in new card (much faster than running new assembly for
many things).
In retrospect ... UNIV could have continued to run 1401 MPIO in 360/30
1401 emulation, but I guess it was part of gaining experience with 360.
Eventually, 360/67 arrived (replacing 709 & 360/30) and I was hired
fulltime to be responsible for academic and administration mainframe
systems ... TSS/360 never came to production fruition and 360/67 mostly
spent its days as "65" running os/360. I continued to have the machine
room dedicated on weekends ... but still taking classes, so 48hrs w/o
sleep could make a monday morning class hard.
Roll-forward to last week in Jan1968 and three people from the cambridge
science center came out to the univ to install (virtual machine) CP/67
(3rd installation after the science center itself on MIT lincoln labs).
The 360/67 continued to run mostly as "65" with OS/360 ... but in
addition to doing OS/360 support/maint. on weekends, I now also got to
play with CP/67 ... redesigning and rewritting a lot of the CP/67 kernel
(all 360 assembler) during 1968 (which IBM would pickup and ship as part
of the product). I significantly reduced a lot of the kernel instruction
pathlengths, redid the disk i/o subsystem with ordered seek queuing
.... and chained channel programs together into single CCW chain
(minimize SIO and interrupts), redid page I/O subystem including new
page replacement algorithm, did new dispatching&scheduling that included
dynamic adaptive resource management, etc.
Trivia: student fortran jobs ran less than second elapsed time on 709
tape-to-tape. Initial transition to OS/360 (360/67 running as "65"),
elapsed time was well over minute. Installing HASP, cut it in half to
over 30 seconds. I redid OS/360 system generation (first time was OS/360
release 9.5) to optimize arm seek, carefully ordering datasets on disk
and members in PDS program libraries (which also ordered member entries
in PDS directory making multi-track search operation finding program
faster) ... which cut elapsed time to 1/3rd (of vanilla HASP). Student
fortran jobs never got to running faster than 709 until installed
Waterloo's WATFOR ... single step monitor that ran multiple student jobs
in same step. Typical student fortran job was around 40cards, and WATFOR
was rated around 20,000 statements/min on 360/65. Univ. typically
collected card tray (2000+ cards) of student jobs to run. I had gotten
OS/360 step elapsed time down around 4secs ... so elapsed time was 4secs
(step overhead) plus 6secs (2000/(20000/60)) ... or about 10secconds for
50 jobs (2000/40) ... or avg. .2seconds/job ... finally beating 709.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386737 is a reply to message #386736] |
Fri, 06 September 2019 16:45 |
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Originally posted by: pcanagnostopoulos
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 3:50:58 PM UTC-4, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> Roll-forward to last week in Jan1968 and three people from the cambridge
> science center came out to the univ to install (virtual machine) CP/67
> (3rd installation after the science center itself on MIT lincoln labs).
> The 360/67 continued to run mostly as "65" with OS/360 ... but in
> addition to doing OS/360 support/maint. on weekends, I now also got to
> play with CP/67 ... redesigning and rewritting a lot of the CP/67 kernel
> (all 360 assembler) during 1968 (which IBM would pickup and ship as part
> of the product). I significantly reduced a lot of the kernel instruction
> pathlengths, redid the disk i/o subsystem with ordered seek queuing
> ... and chained channel programs together into single CCW chain
> (minimize SIO and interrupts), redid page I/O subystem including new
> page replacement algorithm, did new dispatching&scheduling that included
> dynamic adaptive resource management, etc.
Love this story! We ran CP/CMS on the Brown University 67. What a great system. We also worked on various aspects of the software, since it was kind of "open source." I reworked the driver for the Datel terminals so that you could specify where your tab stops were set and it would send tabs instead of multiple spaces. Anything to cut down the load on the multiplexor channel.
~~ Paul
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386751 is a reply to message #386746] |
Sat, 07 September 2019 08:18 |
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Originally posted by: pcanagnostopoulos
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:42:58 AM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>> Now I create emulators for fictitious machines and then write
>> assembler code for them.
>
> Tell us more about these "fictitious machines".
I invented the fictitious 1960s-era company International Computing Machines (ICM). About once a year I get the yearning to design a new machine that they would have built. Sometimes it's simple and other times more complex. I write a Principle of Operations manual for it. Then I implement a simplistic visual representation and an emulator for the CPU and peripherals.
Then I write software for the machine using my Assembler J and Linker J, which are a cross-assembler and cross-linker. Sometimes I don't get very far, other times I implement a piece of an operating system. Then I get sidetracked by real work and development stops.
~~ Paul
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386773 is a reply to message #386772] |
Sat, 07 September 2019 18:49 |
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Originally posted by: pcanagnostopoulos
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 6:01:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
> Assembler H is pretty damn sophisticated.
> That's really saying something.
> SLAC mods too?
Certainly I brag too much.
The assembler's instruction assembly is driven by a table so that I can use the same assembler for all my fictitious machines. The basic directives and instruction assembly are about as complex as Assembler H's.
The macro facility is, I believe, much better than Assembler H's. So are the DSECTs, which are more like records in high-level languages.
The sectioning facilities are not as sophisticated. I support only two levels of sectioning: regions and sections.
I'll check out the SLAC modifications. Thanks!
I should point out that Assembler J is written in a high-level language with very flexible table facilities, so it really was much easier to write than Assembler H. It's about 8,500 lines of code.
~~ Paul
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386778 is a reply to message #386773] |
Sat, 07 September 2019 23:44 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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pcanagnostopoulos@gmail.com writes:
> On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 6:01:59 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
>> Assembler H is pretty damn sophisticated. That's really saying
>> something. SLAC mods too?
>
> Certainly I brag too much.
Hey, no problem.
> The assembler's instruction assembly is driven by a table so that I
> can use the same assembler for all my fictitious machines. The basic
> directives and instruction assembly are about as complex as Assembler
> H's.
>
> The macro facility is, I believe, much better than Assembler H's.
Actually, the macro facility is where all the power of Assembler H is.
Does your facility include globals? Can you test arg types and lengths?
Assembler H uses the macro facility to implement IF/ELSE/SELECT/WHILE.
I once saw a macro package that implemented packed decimal arithmetic
with decimal point alignment.
> So are the DSECTs, which are more like records in high-level
> languages.
A simplified Assembler H DSECT for a record:
MACRO PRE=CR_
DSECT
&PRE.REC DS 0CL200
&PRE.ACCT DS CL8
&PRE.NAME DS CL24
&PRE.ADDR1 DS CL40
&PRE.ADDR2 DS CL40
High level languages are all over the map, RPG is quite different than
COBOL. What would your stuff look like?
> The sectioning facilities are not as sophisticated. I support only two
> levels of sectioning: regions and sections.
Not sure what you mean there, is this like LOCTR?
> I'll check out the SLAC modifications. Thanks!
>
> I should point out that Assembler J is written in a high-level
> language with very flexible table facilities, so it really was much
> easier to write than Assembler H. It's about 8,500 lines of code.
Yes, sometimes using a high-level language pays off.
I once did a data generator in COBOL that turned into a completely
device independent way of doing I/O. All written in COBOL.
Also wrote something similar to XEDIT or ISPF edit written in COBOL.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #386790 is a reply to message #386778] |
Sun, 08 September 2019 10:20 |
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Originally posted by: pcanagnostopoulos
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 11:44:28 PM UTC-4, Dan Espen wrote:
> Actually, the macro facility is where all the power of Assembler H is.
> Does your facility include globals? Can you test arg types and lengths?
> Assembler H uses the macro facility to implement IF/ELSE/SELECT/WHILE.
> I once saw a macro package that implemented packed decimal arithmetic
> with decimal point alignment.
Yes, there are outer (global) macro variables and local macro variables for each level of macro call. Both ordinary and macro expressions can be arbitrarily complex, with the use of about 58 operators. One lets you test any attribute of an ordinary symbol. Macro variables can have values that are nil, boolean, integer, string, or table. The control constructs are ASSERT, CASE, IF ... ELSIF ... ELSE, LOOP, FOR, EXIT, NEXT, MTERM, TRACE, INSERT, SET, OSET.
>> So are the DSECTs, which are more like records in high-level
>> languages.
A record (dsect) in Assembly J can contain any data or instructions. They are used simply to count the locations and define the symbols. You can org anywhere in the record, including to the end. You can add additional fields with subsequent RECORD directives. I probably exaggerated my claim that there are more powerful that DSECTS in Assembler H.
> High level languages are all over the map, RPG is quite different than
> COBOL. What would your stuff look like?
I write all my personal code in Hearsay, which is a home-grown language that compiles into an extended version of AWK called Thompson AWK (TAWK). A friend and I obtained the source code and have made extensive improvements to TAWK so that it is even more powerful. In TAWK, a table maps numbers or strings to arbitrary values. So it is trivial to implement symbol tables, abstract syntax trees, tables of reserved words, expression trees, etc. I put a snippet of code below.
>> The sectioning facilities are not as sophisticated. I support only two
>> levels of sectioning: regions and sections.
>
> Not sure what you mean there, is this like LOCTR?
No, I do not support LOCTR. The program text is separated into regions by the linker, based on the memory access rights of the control sections. Within each region, the control sections are placed in alphabetical order, allowing you to determine their order if need be.
You can define control sections and then switch between them either with or without pushing the current section. So if you have a macro that wants to add text to a specific control section that is accumulating data, you do this:
datasec section push
...
section pop
I'm probably confusing Assembler H's sectioning facilities with HLASM's. HLASM has additional levels of sectioning.
~~ Paul
-----------------------------
global function lookup_symbol (name, optional must_be_defined? := false)
local entry;
for i := symbol_sp; i >= 1; --i do
entry := symbol_stack[i][name];
while nil? entry;
end
if must_be_defined? and nil? entry then
logic("Symbol '~S' must be defined.", name);
fi
return entry;
end
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #387037 is a reply to message #386721] |
Sat, 14 September 2019 12:57 |
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Originally posted by: googlegroups jmfbahciv
On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 2:38:18 AM UTC-4, James Dow Allen wrote:
> On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 1:56:06 AM UTC+7, françai s wrote:
>> All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died?
>
> I programmed the CDC 6400/6600 in the late 1960's. Mostly Fortran, but a fair amount of Compass Assembly code also.
>
> The earliest machine code for me was a very simple program for IBM 1620 in '65 or '66. I didn't write it in an assembly language -- I composed it in "absolute" machine code, using the Multiple-punch option on a card punch! (During the 1970's I developed machine code for about a dozen different machines.)
I did that (and then SPS) in college. Then I went to
PDP-10.
>
> And I'm not quite 70 years old yet.
Yep.
/BAH
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #387039 is a reply to message #387037] |
Sat, 14 September 2019 13:56 |
Gerard Schildberger
Messages: 163
Registered: September 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, September 14, 2019 at 11:57:41 AM UTC-5, googlegroups jmfbahciv wrote:
> On Friday, September 6, 2019 at 2:38:18 AM UTC-4, James Dow Allen wrote:
>> On Sunday, November 4, 2018 at 1:56:06 AM UTC+7, françai s wrote:
>>> All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died?
>>
>> I programmed the CDC 6400/6600 in the late 1960's. Mostly Fortran, but a fair amount of Compass Assembly code also.
>>
>> The earliest machine code for me was a very simple program for IBM 1620 in '65 or '66. I didn't write it in an assembly language -- I composed it in "absolute" machine code, using the Multiple-punch option on a card punch! (During the 1970's I developed machine code for about a dozen different machines.)
>
>
> I did that (and then SPS) in college. Then I went to
> PDP-10.
Which SPS (Symbolic Programming System) was that?
There are at least two SPS implementations:
SPS for the IBM 1400 series of computers
SPS for the IBM 1620 and 1710/1720 series of computers.
____________________________________________ Gerard Schildberger (>72)
>> And I'm not quite 70 years old yet.
>
> Yep.
>
> /BAH
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| Re: All programmers that developed in machine code and Assembly in the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s died? [message #387074 is a reply to message #386751] |
Tue, 17 September 2019 02:27 |
Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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pcanagnostopoulos@gmail.com writes:
> On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 1:42:58 AM UTC-4, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> pcanagnostopoulos@gmail.com writes:
>>
>>> Now I create emulators for fictitious machines and then write
>>> assembler code for them.=20
>>
>> Tell us more about these "fictitious machines".
>
> I invented the fictitious 1960s-era company International Computing
> Machines (ICM). About once a year I get the yearning to design a new
> machine that they would have built. Sometimes it's simple and other
> times more complex. I write a Principle of Operations manual for
> it. Then I implement a simplistic visual representation and an
> emulator for the CPU and peripherals.
>
> Then I write software for the machine using my Assembler J and Linker
> J, which are a cross-assembler and cross-linker. Sometimes I don't get
> very far, other times I implement a piece of an operating system. Then
> I get sidetracked by real work and development stops.
You are a crazy person. Excellent. Much better answer than MMIX.
You should be a Fellow of the Bridgewater Institute for Advanced
Studies [see headers] or the Scotia Centre for Advanced Media Studies.
:-)
Tnx,
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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