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Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 08:31 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer

I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?

We engineers are less resilient than are artists for our
creations are on the scrap heap after only a few years.

Ars longa vita brevis?
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386700 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 10:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: drb

> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?

There are still a few dialup pools around. Think rural. Definitely
most endangered, though.

De
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386701 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer <headstone255@yahoo.com>
writes:

> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?

I suppose there are some. There was a small discussion in the Commodore
group about offline mail readers. I asked about the point of those in
this day and age. One person mentioned actually dialing up to BBS's so
apparently some of those exist still, with actual phone lines and modems
connected. Well, might be VoIP lines but who knows.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386702 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:31:51 +0100
Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> We engineers are less resilient than are artists for our
> creations are on the scrap heap after only a few years.

But of course, we're engineers which means we make things to suit
requirements with due care and attention to specifications etc. So once the
requirement is gone ...

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386705 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Roger Blake is currently offline  Roger Blake
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On 2019-09-05, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?

Dialup has been very common in rural areas that lack broadband, but I
imagine with satellite service now commonly available dialup is fading
away even down on the farm. (Satellite internet sucks, but is still
better than dialup.)

--
------------------------------------------------------------ -----------------
Roger Blake (Posts from Google Groups killfiled due to excess spam.)

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Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386707 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
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On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:31:51 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer wrote:
>
> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?

There a guy on Youtube who has a new episode about different modems ever
so often.

Anyway, let's ignore acoustic couplers. I just realized, assuming
dial-up modems became mainstream in the early 1980s (with Hayes taking
over almost the entire market in the US) and quickly died out in the
early 2000. That's a lifespan of 20 years. And now DSL is also 20 years
available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than dial-up, no?
--
Andreas

My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386710 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 05 September 2019 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
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On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:31:51 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
<headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?

In the U.S. I know of at least two or three companies that maintain a nationwide
network of POPs. Many smaller, local ISPs abandoned their own dialup modems
years ago and contracted out that portion of their service to one of these
companies. I am not located near the ISP I dial into for NNTP service, and
theoretically I could find a POP that's in the local calling area for just about
any location in the country.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386713 is a reply to message #386707] Thu, 05 September 2019 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:31:19 -0400
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> And now DSL is also 20 years
> available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than dial-up,
> no?

DSL never made it here, we went from FWA (first DOCSIS then LTE) or
satellite straight to FTTH bypassing DSL completely.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386722 is a reply to message #386699] Fri, 06 September 2019 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 05/09/2019 13:31, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer wrote:
> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?
>
> We engineers are less resilient than are artists for our
> creations are on the scrap heap after only a few years.
>
> Ars longa vita brevis?

I still have a dial-up modem. I keep it for old times sake but I
recently realised that I don't have a 25 pin serial port to plug it into.

I do still visit a few old BBS using telnet for nostalgia sake.

Andy
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386724 is a reply to message #386699] Fri, 06 September 2019 03:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 5 Sep 2019 23:26:14 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2019-09-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:31:19 -0400
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> And now DSL is also 20 years
>>> available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than dial-up,
>>> no?
>>
>> DSL never made it here, we went from FWA (first DOCSIS then
>> LTE) or satellite straight to FTTH
>
> When did people start calling it "FTTH"? I always knew it as FTTP, until

That's what its always been called here (at least for as long as
its actually been available), the installation bumpf suggests that they
prefer to run it in ducts (so no P) but IME nearly all of it goes in via
poles leaving the box and duct built into the house wall completely unused.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386726 is a reply to message #386722] Fri, 06 September 2019 06:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 06/09/2019 08.49, AndyW wrote:
> On 05/09/2019 13:31, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer wrote:
>> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
>> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?
>>
>> We engineers are less resilient than are artists for our
>> creations are on the scrap heap after only a few years.
>>
>> Ars longa vita brevis?
>
> I still have a dial-up modem. I keep it for old times sake but I
> recently realised that I don't have a 25 pin serial port to plug it into.

I keep a 3 COM US Robotics 5K Fax Modem almost ready in my rack. 9 pin
connector. And my current computer actually has a hardware serial port
in the motherboard, deep inside. I found one of my old connectors and
added it to the box, but I had to add some length of ribbon cable in the
middle so that it would reach.

The modem I have not used, but the serial port, yes. For debugging a
problem in the kernel.

The modem I kept for sending faxes. It was a possibility while I used
ADSL, but I believe it isn't with fibre.

>
> I do still visit a few old BBS using telnet for nostalgia sake.

That not recently; the one I used the computer died and the owner could
not replace. It run os/2. He tried Linux but said he could not make it,
and Windows he refused (for the bbs).


--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386727 is a reply to message #386699] Fri, 06 September 2019 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Fri, 06 Sep 2019 10:55:04 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid>
wrote:

> On 2019-09-06, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On 5 Sep 2019 23:26:14 GMT
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2019-09-05, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 05 Sep 2019 14:31:19 -0400
>>>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > And now DSL is also 20 years
>>>> > available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than
>>>> > dial-up, no?
>>>>
>>>> DSL never made it here, we went from FWA (first DOCSIS then
>>>> LTE) or satellite straight to FTTH
>>>
>>> When did people start calling it "FTTH"? I always knew it as FTTP,
>>> until
>>
>> That's what its always been called here (at least for as long as
>> its actually been available), the installation bumpf suggests that
>> they prefer to run it in ducts (so no P)
>
> Ahhh, I wondered if I should say what the "P" stands for; Premises,
> not Pole(?) There's also FTTC (Cabinet) here, where the fibre finishes
> in a cabinet a few hundred metres from your house, and the final bit
> is in copper.
>
>> but IME nearly all of it goes in via
>> poles leaving the box and duct built into the house wall completely
>> unused.
>
> Mine's underground all the way from my house to LINX! I get ~980Mbps
> up and down.
>
That's a lotta, lotta porn!

I have "Fast" Fibre Broadband "upto" 40M; but it sure beats the dialup
days or even the previous POTS connected 8M. OTOH Usenet seems to be
slower; I don't know if the DNS server is spying on all the traffic to E-
S. There's a definite lag in connecting though.


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386728 is a reply to message #386722] Fri, 06 September 2019 09:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
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AndyW <AWhitelaw@Usenet-News.NET> writes:
> On 05/09/2019 13:31, Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer wrote:
>> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
>> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?
>>
>> We engineers are less resilient than are artists for our
>> creations are on the scrap heap after only a few years.
>>
>> Ars longa vita brevis?
>
> I still have a dial-up modem. I keep it for old times sake but I
> recently realised that I don't have a 25 pin serial port to plug it into.

I still have a serial cable with both DB9 and DB25 connectors on either end;
but one needs a USB Serial adapter on most modern desktop systems.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386745 is a reply to message #386707] Sat, 07 September 2019 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
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Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:

> On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:31:51 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10
> Downstairs Computer wrote:
>
>> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
>> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?
>
> Anyway, let's ignore acoustic couplers. I just realized, assuming
> dial-up modems became mainstream in the early 1980s (with Hayes taking
> over almost the entire market in the US) and quickly died out in the
> early 2000.

I'm using a dialup modem over POTS as I write. Two desktops here with
serial ports, one Linux, one Windoes, both with USR modems. Linux
laptop has no serial port but I have a USB to serial adapter cable
that works. Lots of places in rural Nova Scotia with no cable and too
far from the cabinet to get ADSL. (I'm about 4 miles away from such a
cabinet.)

I passed up "rural wireless" -- Canopy antennas, wireless repeaters --
when it became available because every user I talked to had ongoing
problems and I didn't need people crawling around on my roof trying to
fix it or putting a new pole where it would be a nuisance. It has
turned out, several years on, that the whole deal was poorly thought
out, poorly done by the local cableco with the contractual commitment
to supply rural residents. Available grants passed up, tech upgrades
not made when they became available, failure to lobby or negotiate for
eliminating the problem of pole tariffs etc. It's a can of worms from
a perspective of local and provincial government and that of the rural
public.

Just recently I've been experimenting with a SIM card in an Oxygen-3
"wireless gateway device". Works well but I don't as yet have a
handle on cost. With images and js disabled most of the time (I *do*
need to have a look at the NOAA hurricane maps, the real ones without
felt tip additions, just now) all seems to be well but I suspect that
turning on images just for ordinary browsing/research (never mind
U-Tube) would get very pricey. And I have the wrong version of the
Oxygen-3 for optimal LAN config so it's only the laptop that gets
broadband for the moment. Need to change the device or upgrade my
LAN router and the Linux version on the desktop too.

So here I am doing news over dialup. It *is* with a 19" CRT which is
much nicer for aging eyes than the 17" laptop screen.


> That's a lifespan of 20 years. And now DSL is also 20 years
> available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than
> dial-up, no?

I'm not the only dialup user so better say lifespan pushing 40 years.

The Canopy rural wireless deal was initiated something like 8 years
ago. DSL and cable have been available in towns & cities & some
villages for a long time and the telco is has been pushing glass to
the home for a couple of years but only in densely populated areas.

Forty years ago I talked to (then) old-timers who remembered when they
brought electricity to rural NS in the 20s/30s. They just did it.
They should do the same with broadband, presumably fiber, but it is,
as I mentioned, a political and corporate mare's nest of conflicting
interests and furiously defended turf/privilege.

(The aforementioned old-timers remarked that while the powerco crews
were setting poles and stringing wires, the washing machine salesmen
were coming down the road right behind them.)

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386747 is a reply to message #386699] Sat, 07 September 2019 02:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 6 Sep 2019 10:55:04 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> Mine's underground all the way from my house to LINX! I get ~980Mbps up
> and down.

For some reason all the services here cap upload at 100Mbps but the
down is an honest 1000Mbps.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386752 is a reply to message #386701] Sat, 07 September 2019 10:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Conceited Jerk

On Thu, 05 Sep 2019 17:14:20 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

> I suppose there are some. There was a small discussion in the Commodore
> group about offline mail readers. I asked about the point of those in
> this day and age. One person mentioned actually dialing up to BBS's so
> apparently some of those exist still, with actual phone lines and modems
> connected. Well, might be VoIP lines but who knows.

Personally, I prefer an offline mail reader to reading through messages
"live" online. I tend to visit my three regular BBSes once a week, and
using an offline reader makes things easier to navigate threads, skip
over threads, etc.

There's still a handful of dial-up BBSes around, I dial in to Sursum Corda
BBS on rare occasions. I have no real reason to do so, however, other
than nostalgia ;)
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386762 is a reply to message #386745] Sat, 07 September 2019 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
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Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On 07 Sep 2019 02:34:38 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> That's a lifespan of 20 years. And now DSL is also 20 years
>> available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than
>> dial-up, no?
>
> I'm not the only dialup user so better say lifespan pushing 40 years.

I should had added "for the mainstream". For nostalgia reasons some
people might still use punched cards today instead of the modern floppy
disks, *ehem* USB flash drives and stuff you use today.
--
Andreas
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386763 is a reply to message #386745] Sat, 07 September 2019 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 07/09/2019 07.34, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> On Thu, 5 Sep 2019 13:31:51 +0100, Gareth's was W7 now W10
>> Downstairs Computer wrote:
>>
>>> I wonder how many dialling modems are still around now that
>>> most ISPs have abandoned them in favour of broadband?
>>
>> Anyway, let's ignore acoustic couplers. I just realized, assuming
>> dial-up modems became mainstream in the early 1980s (with Hayes taking
>> over almost the entire market in the US) and quickly died out in the
>> early 2000.
>
> I'm using a dialup modem over POTS as I write. Two desktops here with
> serial ports, one Linux, one Windoes, both with USR modems. Linux
> laptop has no serial port but I have a USB to serial adapter cable
> that works. Lots of places in rural Nova Scotia with no cable and too
> far from the cabinet to get ADSL. (I'm about 4 miles away from such a
> cabinet.)
>
> I passed up "rural wireless" -- Canopy antennas, wireless repeaters --
> when it became available because every user I talked to had ongoing
> problems and I didn't need people crawling around on my roof trying to
> fix it or putting a new pole where it would be a nuisance. It has
> turned out, several years on, that the whole deal was poorly thought
> out, poorly done by the local cableco with the contractual commitment
> to supply rural residents. Available grants passed up, tech upgrades
> not made when they became available, failure to lobby or negotiate for
> eliminating the problem of pole tariffs etc. It's a can of worms from
> a perspective of local and provincial government and that of the rural
> public.

Oh dear.

I can only say that I have seen people here on rural location use things
that work like long distance WiFi. Perhaps WiMAX. They don't complain,
except that they'd prefer fibre, or sometimes ADSL, if it were available.

>
> Just recently I've been experimenting with a SIM card in an Oxygen-3
> "wireless gateway device". Works well but I don't as yet have a
> handle on cost. With images and js disabled most of the time (I *do*
> need to have a look at the NOAA hurricane maps, the real ones without
> felt tip additions, just now) all seems to be well but I suspect that
> turning on images just for ordinary browsing/research (never mind
> U-Tube) would get very pricey. And I have the wrong version of the
> Oxygen-3 for optimal LAN config so it's only the laptop that gets
> broadband for the moment. Need to change the device or upgrade my
> LAN router and the Linux version on the desktop too.

The trick is to use an extension for Firefox or whatever browser so that
the other end thinks you are using a mobile phone, and thus present to
you a streamed down version of the web page, less heavy. But the screen
ordering changes, and sometimes you also get fewer places to click. My
bank doesn't offer all options on the mobile page, for instance.


>
> So here I am doing news over dialup. It *is* with a 19" CRT which is
> much nicer for aging eyes than the 17" laptop screen.
>
>
>> That's a lifespan of 20 years. And now DSL is also 20 years
>> available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than
>> dial-up, no?
>
> I'm not the only dialup user so better say lifespan pushing 40 years.
>
> The Canopy rural wireless deal was initiated something like 8 years
> ago. DSL and cable have been available in towns & cities & some
> villages for a long time and the telco is has been pushing glass to
> the home for a couple of years but only in densely populated areas.
>
> Forty years ago I talked to (then) old-timers who remembered when they
> brought electricity to rural NS in the 20s/30s. They just did it.
> They should do the same with broadband, presumably fiber, but it is,
> as I mentioned, a political and corporate mare's nest of conflicting
> interests and furiously defended turf/privilege.
>
> (The aforementioned old-timers remarked that while the powerco crews
> were setting poles and stringing wires, the washing machine salesmen
> were coming down the road right behind them.)
>

LOL

Yeah, they will sell you Sport TV of some kind, pay per view :-p

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386765 is a reply to message #386762] Sat, 07 September 2019 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Melzzzzz

On 2019-09-07, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 07 Sep 2019 02:34:38 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>>
>>> That's a lifespan of 20 years. And now DSL is also 20 years
>>> available and will for more years. Thus DSL exists longer than
>>> dial-up, no?
>>
>> I'm not the only dialup user so better say lifespan pushing 40 years.
>
> I should had added "for the mainstream". For nostalgia reasons some
> people might still use punched cards today instead of the modern floppy
> disks, *ehem* USB flash drives and stuff you use today.

I remember they when I got floppy disk. Switch from cassette tape drive
was shocking ;P


--
press any key to continue or any other to quit...
U ničemu ja ne uživam kao u svom statusu INVALIDA -- Zli Zec
Na divljem zapadu i nije bilo tako puno nasilja, upravo zato jer su svi
bili naoruzani. -- Mladen Gogala
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386768 is a reply to message #386699] Sat, 07 September 2019 16:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 07/09/2019 22.07, Huge wrote:
> On 2019-09-07, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I can only say that I have seen people here on rural location use things
>> that work like long distance WiFi. Perhaps WiMAX. They don't complain,
>> except that they'd prefer fibre,
>
> I have this;
>
> https://b4rn.org.uk/
>

Interesting!


But deploying fibre on rural areas can be expensive. How do they manage?

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386781 is a reply to message #386768] Sun, 08 September 2019 04:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 22:57:54 +0200
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> But deploying fibre on rural areas can be expensive. How do they manage?

Round here there's a government backed rural broadband plan that
has been stalled in tender for years (there's only one bidder left and
that's causing issues) meanwhile one of the early bidders pulled out and
went ahead and rolled out fibre to some 300K rural premises on a purely
commercial basis. Someone took a decision to make a long term investment,
whether it pays off or bankrupts them the fibre is there now.

It would be interesting to see a study on the effect of having big
chunks of rural Ireland with better connectivity available than in the
cities (where FTTC dominates).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386785 is a reply to message #386699] Sun, 08 September 2019 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Sat, 07 Sep 2019 20:07:10 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2019-09-07, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I can only say that I have seen people here on rural location use
things
>> that work like long distance WiFi. Perhaps WiMAX. They don't complain,
>> except that they'd prefer fibre,
>
> I have this;
>
> https://b4rn.org.uk/
>
Nice, if you can get it </envy>


--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386788 is a reply to message #386699] Sun, 08 September 2019 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 08/09/2019 02.02, Huge wrote:
> On 2019-09-07, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 07/09/2019 22.07, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2019-09-07, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I can only say that I have seen people here on rural location use things
>>>> that work like long distance WiFi. Perhaps WiMAX. They don't complain,
>>>> except that they'd prefer fibre,
>>>
>>> I have this;
>>>
>>> https://b4rn.org.uk/
>>>
>>
>> Interesting!
>>
>>
>> But deploying fibre on rural areas can be expensive. How do they manage?
>
> Volunteers. All the trenching, installation of ducts and blowing of fibre is done by
> volunteers. They only install to the border of your property and it's then up to
> you to get the fibre from the border to your house (sadly I had to dig up 35
> metres of concrete, but that needed doing anyway in order to install mains power
> to my barn. I seized the opportunity to put in an Ethernet cable, phone line and
> water main at the same time, all inside a 100mm cable duct).

:-o

Side note: here I don't think we are allowed to put water in the same
duct as cables.

> I also had to drill through the wall and install the
> modem mounting plate and the exterior termination box. B4RN charge £150
> installation and finally, there is a Government initiative to get fibre to rural areas
> which provides a £500 grant per installation; I had to apply but B4RN get the
> money. They then charge £30/month. I get uncontended, unmetered, unfiltered
> full duplex 1Gb, IPV4 (with one fixed IP address - no carrier grade NAT)
> and IPV6.

Wow.

>
> They provide DNS but no other services (e.g. email) so one either has to use
> Gmail, or in my case I get it hosted at my previous ISP, who also run the DNS
> for my vanity domain. Finally, I'm going to fire the 'phone company and discontinue
> ADSL & POTS service and get VOIP. I should recover the installation costs in
> about 2 years.

Interesting!


Side note 2:

Here my ISP does not provide email to new clients since some years ago.
Another ISP I know does the same.

On the other hand, one of the reasons that stops me considering a
different ISP is precisely that most of my email is with them.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386789 is a reply to message #386781] Sun, 08 September 2019 10:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Carlos E.R.

On 08/09/2019 10.09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Sep 2019 22:57:54 +0200
> "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> But deploying fibre on rural areas can be expensive. How do they manage?
>
> Round here there's a government backed rural broadband plan that
> has been stalled in tender for years (there's only one bidder left and
> that's causing issues) meanwhile one of the early bidders pulled out and
> went ahead and rolled out fibre to some 300K rural premises on a purely
> commercial basis. Someone took a decision to make a long term investment,
> whether it pays off or bankrupts them the fibre is there now.
>
> It would be interesting to see a study on the effect of having big
> chunks of rural Ireland with better connectivity available than in the
> cities (where FTTC dominates).

Indeed! :-)

--
Cheers, Carlos.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386795 is a reply to message #386765] Sun, 08 September 2019 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 07 Sep 2019 19:49:48 GMT, Melzzzzz wrote:
>
> On 2019-09-07, Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>> I should had added "for the mainstream". For nostalgia reasons some
>> people might still use punched cards today instead of the modern floppy
>> disks, *ehem* USB flash drives and stuff you use today.
>
> I remember they when I got floppy disk. Switch from cassette tape drive
> was shocking ;P

When I got my Commodore 64 in 1984 I also bought a datasette. The program
"Turbo Tape" made the tape faster than a normal 1541 disk drive. But for
that came "Turbo Disk" little later and then it outperformed tape again.

Btw. when pupils from our class visited the a city in the UK in an
exchange program I was disappointed the guest family's children had a
Specci. Because I brought my C64 floppies. *g* I went to a computer and
asked the clerk if he knew Turbo Disk. He didn't so I showed him. He was
amazed.
--
Andreas

My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386936 is a reply to message #386699] Wed, 11 September 2019 15:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:

> On 2019-09-07, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Lots of places in rural Nova Scotia
>
> What's the weather looking like?

Weather has been lovely since Dorian passed, except overcats today.
But still no power. NS Power (Emera) has externalaized internal
diseconomies. For couple of decades, they've saved a lot of money by
not clearing powerline right-of-ways, not policing for threatening
trees and overhanging branches or places where trees have grown up
densely around the lines. Cheaper to do repairs than try to
anticipate and prevent or minimize storm damage. The costs are bourne
by users who must have (where it's possible) generators or do without
water, heat,refrigeration and cooking until the mess is cleaned
up. 400,000 people have to do that for a couple of days, some 50,000
for longer. I'm on day 5, running a Korean War-vintage gen set
(because the fairly new one failed) to keep the freezers cold.

And running a wireless gateway device to read News while the fridge
chills.

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386947 is a reply to message #386699] Wed, 11 September 2019 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2019 16:02:29 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On 2019-09-07, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lots of places in rural Nova Scotia
>>>
>>> What's the weather looking like?
>>
>> Weather has been lovely since Dorian passed, except overcats today.
>> But still no power. NS Power (Emera) has externalaized internal
>> diseconomies. For couple of decades, they've saved a lot of money by
>> not clearing powerline right-of-ways, not policing for threatening
>> trees and overhanging branches or places where trees have grown up
>> densely around the lines. Cheaper to do repairs than try to
>> anticipate and prevent or minimize storm damage. The costs are bourne
>> by users who must have (where it's possible) generators or do without
>> water, heat,refrigeration and cooking until the mess is cleaned
>> up. 400,000 people have to do that for a couple of days, some 50,000
>> for longer. I'm on day 5, running a Korean War-vintage gen set
>> (because the fairly new one failed) to keep the freezers cold.
>
> Time to think about putting local power lines underground, like many
> European countries do. If they experience a major storm these are not
> affected by it.
>
> At least for new constructed areas that should be considered. While
> digging into the ground to lay water pipes at the same time power cables
> should be installed there. I understand though that putting existing
> power lines in long existing areas would be pretty expensive.
>
> In downtown areas of major cities in the US and Canada you see no
> power lines as they are buried underground and thus are these areas less
> likely experience power outages when a strong storm passes. Other than
> if they got flooded.

most reasonably modern suburbs also have underground power (IME). Maybe not
a problem for residential power, but I understand that higher voltage lines
generate fair amount of heat.

>
>> And running a wireless gateway device to read News while the fridge
>> chills.
>
> Where do you get your power from?



--
Pete
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386955 is a reply to message #386699] Wed, 11 September 2019 23:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joy Beeson is currently offline  Joy Beeson
Messages: 159
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:01:49 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
<ank@spamfence.net> wrote:

> In downtown areas of major cities in the US and Canada you see no
> power lines as they are buried underground and thus are these areas less
> likely experience power outages when a strong storm passes. Other than
> if they got flooded.

Underground facilities tend to get mislaid. I've twice had geysers in
front of my house because water lines weren't where they were supposed
to be, and a short walk in one direction a bridge-building crew had a
near disaster with a gas line that had been moved specifically to get
it out of their way, but not to where it had been said to have been
put. A short walk in the other direction, road builders found an
abandoned gas line that still had pressure in it.

With all that going on in such a tiny sample, I'm not at all happy at
the thought of power lines being under ground I walk on.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386956 is a reply to message #386699] Thu, 12 September 2019 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:

> On 11 Sep 2019 16:02:29 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> And running a wireless gateway device to read News while the fridge
>> chills.
>
> Where do you get your power from?

Normally, NS Power (Emera).

Now? Korean War vintage 1500 W genset, run intermittently. The new(ish)
4.4 KW one with only a few hours on it failed 30 minutes in.

Power still out, going into day 6.

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386966 is a reply to message #386955] Thu, 12 September 2019 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:01:49 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>
>> In downtown areas of major cities in the US and Canada you see no
>> power lines as they are buried underground and thus are these areas less
>> likely experience power outages when a strong storm passes. Other than
>> if they got flooded.
>
> Underground facilities tend to get mislaid. I've twice had geysers in
> front of my house because water lines weren't where they were supposed
> to be, and a short walk in one direction a bridge-building crew had a
> near disaster with a gas line that had been moved specifically to get
> it out of their way, but not to where it had been said to have been
> put. A short walk in the other direction, road builders found an
> abandoned gas line that still had pressure in it.
>
> With all that going on in such a tiny sample, I'm not at all happy at
> the thought of power lines being under ground I walk on.
>

I’ve seen this with telephone lines, too. Each repairman does the quickest
thing he can do to fix his problem, and leaves more of a mess for the next
guy.

--
Pete
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386970 is a reply to message #386956] Thu, 12 September 2019 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1456
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 12 Sep 2019 01:05:58 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:
>
>> On 11 Sep 2019 16:02:29 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>> And running a wireless gateway device to read News while the fridge
>>> chills.
>>
>> Where do you get your power from?
>
> Normally, NS Power (Emera).
>
> Now? Korean War vintage 1500 W genset, run intermittently. The new(ish)
> 4.4 KW one with only a few hours on it failed 30 minutes in.

I hear you.

> Power still out, going into day 6.

I hope some of your neighbors have photovoltaic systems other renewables
or also Diesel generators.

Don't know how much power your fridge and other needed devices need. May
be share your surplus with one of the neighbors. He's likely more than
happy to pay the fuel. But for the content of his fridge on day six it
will be probably too late.
--
Andreas

My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386973 is a reply to message #386966] Thu, 12 September 2019 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Joy Beeson <jbeeson@invalid.net.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Sep 2019 18:01:49 -0400, Andreas Kohlbach
>> <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
>>
>>> In downtown areas of major cities in the US and Canada you see no
>>> power lines as they are buried underground and thus are these areas less
>>> likely experience power outages when a strong storm passes. Other than
>>> if they got flooded.
>>
>> Underground facilities tend to get mislaid. I've twice had geysers in
>> front of my house because water lines weren't where they were supposed
>> to be, and a short walk in one direction a bridge-building crew had a
>> near disaster with a gas line that had been moved specifically to get
>> it out of their way, but not to where it had been said to have been
>> put. A short walk in the other direction, road builders found an
>> abandoned gas line that still had pressure in it.
>>
>> With all that going on in such a tiny sample, I'm not at all happy at
>> the thought of power lines being under ground I walk on.
>>
>
> I’ve seen this with telephone lines, too. Each repairman does the quickest
> thing he can do to fix his problem, and leaves more of a mess for the next
> guy.

Whereas I've seen exactly the opposite. Every time, they've left the job
neater than before.
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #386999 is a reply to message #386699] Fri, 13 September 2019 03:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:

> I should had been clearer. In Europe for last distances are also overhead
> cables used. But once you come into a (even small) town they go
> underground. Like you'll see (or rather not see them) it downtown of any
> Canadian or US city. I'm in a suburb of one of these town and cables go
> overhead. Pass tree branches. If a major storm is on the way and city
> workers have not cut off some twigs that might lead to a short.

Miles of power line here in rural Nova Scotia that are invisible
inside dense conifer foliage, overhung by poplar and other large tree
branches and otherwise situated as failures waiting to happen with
just an ordinary Atlantic blow, never mind a hurricane. Thirty years
ago the powerco didn't let that happen. Externalize internal
diseconomies.

> I remember when going to school in the town I was born in Europe there
> were power cables overhead everywhere. Later I moved. When I returned some
> 30 years later to see what has changed the cables were gone. Suppose
> while renewing water pipes or the sewage they put the cables
> underground. I don't see that in Canada. In neighbour streets they
> replacing lead pipes with something else but not use this opportunity to
> bury the cables.

They took a notion here maybe 35 years ago to put rural phone lines
underground. Diesel trench digger, what could go wrong? Don't have
to pay the powerco pole rent.

Given the stony glacial till that passes for soil, doing that proved
to be way more time consuming than predicted. And given the
freeze/thaw cycle and lots of rain, the installed failure rate was
higher than predicted. And of course repair meant digging it all up.
I think the fashon only lasted a year or so.

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
Re: Rarer than Roman relics? [message #387002 is a reply to message #386999] Fri, 13 September 2019 05:53 Go to previous message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 13 Sep 2019 04:09:10 -0300
Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:

> They took a notion here maybe 35 years ago to put rural phone lines
> underground. Diesel trench digger, what could go wrong? Don't have
> to pay the powerco pole rent.
>
> Given the stony glacial till that passes for soil, doing that proved
> to be way more time consuming than predicted. And given the
> freeze/thaw cycle and lots of rain, the installed failure rate was
> higher than predicted. And of course repair meant digging it all up.
> I think the fashon only lasted a year or so.

Add to that the increased losses due to ground capacitance and
poles look very attractive.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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