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Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382651] Tue, 02 April 2019 01:38 Go to next message
Charlie Eddy is currently offline  Charlie Eddy
Messages: 11
Registered: November 2017
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Hello,

I am happy to report the following for public edification, with a follow up
inquiry.

I've been able to successfully boot a Powerbook 520c. It appears to be
running:
System Software 7.5.3
System 7.5 Update 2.0
(C) date maxes out @ 1995.

The exciting part is that it loaded the OS from the hard drive.

Here's what went down:

I was given this by a family member who wanted to throw it away since it's
an old piece of junk.

I turned it on.

It began "creaking" and beeping regularly. The screen lit up after about 10
seconds. Then, nothing.

So I unplugged it and did it again.

I did this many times. Sometimes the screen was grey and sometimes not. I
couldn't decide if it was green or white or bluish...

Eventually I bumped the screen just so and saw a cursor. I realized moving
the screen was "messing" with the display's connection somehow, and bumped
around until I found a stable configuration where I could see stuff.

All I could see was a floppy with a blinking question mark.

I have previously encountered stiction and figured this was it. However,
that previous encounter resulted in the computer never working (still
haven't replaced the hard drive).

For some reason, I power cycled many times even though I knew it wouldn't
do anything. And lo, it did something: The creaking became a groaning, and
the groaning became a bootloader's MacOS logo. I just kept turning it on
and unplugging it. Who would have thought?

I have a lot of questions.

1. Are there online resources on this operating system?
2. What is Calc(w)Tape?
3. Is the large, rectangular, 30-pin (6x5) connector the AAUI I've been
hearing about? How do you get one of those?
4. There is a desktop icon of two bullet points on a page, called
"AppleTalk Preferences." Clicking on it leads to an error message:
"The AppleTalk document 'AppleTalk Preferences' could not be opened,
because the application program that created it could not be found."
What program created the document in question?
How can I check filesystem consistency and OS integrity/hard drive sectors
on this operating system, since I'm suspicious of this hard drive for
obvious reasons?
Is this error (above) related to the following notification? "AppleTalk is
currently inactive. Changes won't take effect until AppleTalk is made
active again. Make AppleTalk active when closing the control panel?"
5. What is the display issue I'm experiencing? Bulb or wire-related? (I.e.,
certain positions of display hinge cause blurriness or white-out...
pressing on the side makes it go away sometimes, and rotating the hinge
makes is go away other times.
6. Is it normal to wait a moment after every interaction? Like, clicking
the next page arrow in Apple Guide takes a second? (well, half-second?) Or
should I consider upgrading something?
7. How does one access a terminal prompt?
8. If I have a TelePort Platinum Fax/Modem, can I obtain what I would
possibly anachronistically consider a "generic" network connection? Such
as: Send/receive email. Run a program like the Lynx browser or iCab.
Download binaries. Do AOL stuff. Print on printers.
9. How do I find out if this computer can run TCP/IP or merely AppleTalk's
implementation of AFP?
10. What is "Program Linking?" This is a form of Sharing.
11. What exactly are Extensions? Are they kexts? How are they accessed when
the user holds the spacebar during boot?
12. How can I get a copy of HyperCard? ResEdit? MacsBug? MPW?
13. Where are "active" Classic Mac developers or power users, besides
(possibly) here?
14. Is the only way to load a binary onto this computer via a floppy, or is
there an Ethernet via Rectangular 30-Pin AppleTalk way of making this work?
What would be the name of the connector in the latter case?

Regards,
Charlie Eddy

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382659 is a reply to message #382651] Tue, 02 April 2019 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Hubatka is currently offline  Jeff Hubatka
Messages: 16
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Good news on the 520, that was the first portable I ever purchased back in
1996 and I still have that machine. Below are a few answers....


On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 10:38:34 PM UTC-7, Charlie Eddy wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
> I have a lot of questions.
>
> 1. Are there online resources on this operating system?
>
Archive.org has a downloadable pdf book about System 7.5.

>
> 3. Is the large, rectangular, 30-pin (6x5) connector the AAUI I've been
> hearing about? How do you get one of those?
>
That is the SCSI connector, it takes an adapter to then connect with
standard SCSI cables. The AAUI looks like a small VGA port, which requires
an adapter to connect with ethernet.


>
> 5. What is the display issue I'm experiencing? Bulb or wire-related?
> (I.e., certain positions of display hinge cause blurriness or white-out...
> pressing on the side makes it go away sometimes, and rotating the hinge
> makes is go away other times.
>
That sounds like it is cable related. The display cable is somewhat
difficult to reach, mostly because the microphone cover is so fragile. Only
two tiny clips hold that in place and even 20 years ago they broke easily.

6. Is it normal to wait a moment after every interaction? Like, clicking
> the next page arrow in Apple Guide takes a second? (well, half-second?) Or
> should I consider upgrading something?
>
It is an old computer, running at just 25mhz so patience is required. You
can upgrade the processor card to something from a 540 which is 33 mhz.
Might even get lucky and find the PowerPC upgrade which runs at 100mhz,
that is what I have in mine.


>
> 8. If I have a TelePort Platinum Fax/Modem, can I obtain what I would
> possibly anachronistically consider a "generic" network connection? Such
> as: Send/receive email. Run a program like the Lynx browser or iCab.
> Download binaries. Do AOL stuff. Print on printers.
>
You can print to an old Apple-compatible printer via the printer/modem port.


> 9. How do I find out if this computer can run TCP/IP or merely AppleTalk's
> implementation of AFP?
>
System 7.5 has TCP/IP built in, it will let you connect with a bit more
modern Macs.


>
> 11. What exactly are Extensions? Are they kexts? How are they accessed
> when the user holds the spacebar during boot?
>
Holding spacebar during boot turns off extensions. They are located in the
extensions folder.


> 12. How can I get a copy of HyperCard? ResEdit? MacsBug? MPW?
>
You can find some old Mac software at Macintosh Garden, also there are some
files at Archive.org. To get files onto the computer you will need either
floppy, a SCSI CDROM or ethernet.


>
>
> Regards,
> Charlie Eddy
>

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382660 is a reply to message #382659] Tue, 02 April 2019 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mark@noakes.com is currently offline  mark@noakes.com
Messages: 11
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
Junior Member
This reminds me that I still need to get back onto repair of our 520
that my son has taken to...thanks for the info.

Mark

On 4/2/19 10:08 AM, Jeff Hubatka wrote:
> Good news on the 520, that was the first portable I ever purchased
> back in 1996 and I still have that machine. Below are a few answers....
>
>
> On Monday, April 1, 2019 at 10:38:34 PM UTC-7, Charlie Eddy wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
>
> I have a lot of questions.
>
> 1. Are there online resources on this operating system?
>
> Archive.org has a downloadable pdf book about System 7.5.
>
>
> 3. Is the large, rectangular, 30-pin (6x5) connector the AAUI I've
> been hearing about? How do you get one of those?
>
> That is the SCSI connector, it takes an adapter to then connect with
> standard SCSI cables. The AAUI looks like a small VGA port, which
> requires an adapter to connect with ethernet.
>
>
> 5. What is the display issue I'm experiencing? Bulb or
> wire-related? (I.e., certain positions of display hinge cause
> blurriness or white-out... pressing on the side makes it go away
> sometimes, and rotating the hinge makes is go away other times.
>
> That sounds like it is cable related. The display cable is somewhat
> difficult to reach, mostly because the microphone cover is so fragile.
> Only two tiny clips hold that in place and even 20 years ago they
> broke easily.
>
> 6. Is it normal to wait a moment after every interaction? Like,
> clicking the next page arrow in Apple Guide takes a second? (well,
> half-second?) Or should I consider upgrading something?
>
> It is an old computer, running at just 25mhz so patience is required.
> You can upgrade the processor card to something from a 540 which is 33
> mhz. Might even get lucky and find the PowerPC upgrade which runs at
> 100mhz, that is what I have in mine.
>
>
> 8. If I have a TelePort Platinum Fax/Modem, can I obtain what I
> would possibly anachronistically consider a "generic" network
> connection? Such as: Send/receive email. Run a program like the
> Lynx browser or iCab. Download binaries. Do AOL stuff. Print on
> printers.
>
> You can print to an old Apple-compatible printer via the printer/modem
> port.
>
> 9. How do I find out if this computer can run TCP/IP or merely
> AppleTalk's implementation of AFP?
>
> System 7.5 has TCP/IP built in, it will let you connect with a bit
> more modern Macs.
>
>
> 11. What exactly are Extensions? Are they kexts? How are they
> accessed when the user holds the spacebar during boot?
>
> Holding spacebar during boot turns off extensions. They are located in
> the extensions folder.
>
> 12. How can I get a copy of HyperCard? ResEdit? MacsBug? MPW?
>
> You can find some old Mac software at Macintosh Garden, also there are
> some files at Archive.org. To get files onto the computer you will
> need either floppy, a SCSI CDROM or ethernet.
>
>
>
> Regards,
> Charlie Eddy
>

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382665 is a reply to message #382651] Tue, 02 April 2019 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Pfaff is currently offline  Thomas Pfaff
Messages: 19
Registered: April 2019
Karma: 0
Junior Member
I just looked the other day and AAUI boxes are available on eBay. I like
the rectangular ones from Apple just coz they're kind of cute. :-) Other
vendors made them.

MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no "Terminal."
There was a version of Yellow Dog Unix available for it that maybe ran on
top of MacOS... I can't remember how all that worked.

If you have a mac you can download MacTracker and conveniently see specs +
compare all models.

Mac had TCP/IP. You can get an AAUI box and do ftp transfers via TCP/IP.
You'll first need to get some kind of ftp server on it... there were tons
of small ones that fit on a floppy.
Or use an old browser.

I had a 520. It was my least favorite Mac ever but also the one I did the
most work on until the post-NeXT era. Very frustrating time since NeXT was
dropping off the radar and I had been using the awesome productivity suites
on NeXTStep for maybe 5 years! Having to use Inspiration instead, for
instance, was a little awkward.

Best, T

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382668 is a reply to message #382665] Tue, 02 April 2019 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jonathan Morton is currently offline  Jonathan Morton
Messages: 188
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
> On 2 Apr, 2019, at 7:21 pm, Thomas Pfaff <tpfaff100@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> There was a version of Yellow Dog Unix available for it that maybe ran on top of MacOS... I can't remember how all that worked.

I recall Yellow Dog Linux was for PCI PowerMacs, and ran natively using the OpenFirmware bootloader, never "on top of" MacOS. I once ran it on a G5.

The PB 520 is far too old for that. You'd need to look for a 68K Linux that could cope with the older and much weirder (from a third-party standpoint) NuBus Mac boot sequence. Unless you're seriously into that sort of thing, just use it as a Mac.

Incidentally, the standard advice for any 7.5.x installation is to upgrade it to 7.5.5 which has some important bugfixes. You can download the updater floppy images from Macintosh Garden. Once you have them available to your Mac, the update process is very straightforward.

- Jonathan Morton

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382673 is a reply to message #382668] Tue, 02 April 2019 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Pfaff is currently offline  Thomas Pfaff
Messages: 19
Registered: April 2019
Karma: 0
Junior Member
At the time the 520 was on the machine list for Yellow Dog Linux. But only
with the PowerPC accelerator upgrade.
I believe the "then upcoming" release did not which was part of why I
didn't end up buying it.

It was a struggle finding a practical use for the 520 so I sold it and went
back to my NeXTStation Turbo for a few years. Eventually replaced it with
a Mac Cube when they dropped to $270... I think just before the Intel Macs
came out. Built a lot of USB->SPI hardware for the USB port of that Mac
Cube... 'twas a lot of fun ... so I waited some more. Eventually the Intel
machiens got so cheap I switched over. In the meantime I played with a lot
of mac models too... c/o the Foothill Swap Meet at $25 per machine or so.

In the end the last real mac I liked was the IIfx... so I've just got to
get mine going again! I developed on those at Apple and Broderbund so am
sentimental. Was kinda shocked when the IIfx w/ I think 8mb RAM became the
minimal configuration for development!

Thomas



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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382678 is a reply to message #382665] Wed, 03 April 2019 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Eddy is currently offline  Charlie Eddy
Messages: 11
Registered: November 2017
Karma: 0
Junior Member
> MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no "Terminal."

I've never used a system without a shell. Is there one?

On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 9:21 AM Thomas Pfaff <tpfaff100@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just looked the other day and AAUI boxes are available on eBay. I like
> the rectangular ones from Apple just coz they're kind of cute. :-) Other
> vendors made them.
>
> MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no "Terminal."
> There was a version of Yellow Dog Unix available for it that maybe ran on
> top of MacOS... I can't remember how all that worked.
>
> If you have a mac you can download MacTracker and conveniently see specs +
> compare all models.
>
> Mac had TCP/IP. You can get an AAUI box and do ftp transfers via TCP/IP.
> You'll first need to get some kind of ftp server on it... there were tons
> of small ones that fit on a floppy.
> Or use an old browser.
>
> I had a 520. It was my least favorite Mac ever but also the one I did the
> most work on until the post-NeXT era. Very frustrating time since NeXT was
> dropping off the radar and I had been using the awesome productivity suites
> on NeXTStep for maybe 5 years! Having to use Inspiration instead, for
> instance, was a little awkward.
>
> Best, T
>
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> --
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> You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs
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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382680 is a reply to message #382678] Wed, 03 April 2019 06:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jonathan Morton is currently offline  Jonathan Morton
Messages: 188
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
>> MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no "Terminal."
>
> I've never used a system without a shell. Is there one?

Not in a standard installation, no.

There's MacsBug, which is a debugger, not really an independent CLI.

There's AppleScript, which is a scripting language, not a CLI.

And there was an advanced development environment, the name of which I forget right now, which was modular and shell-based and generally a little bit unixy. Most ordinary Mac users would be completely at sea if faced with it.

Beyond that, the Mac really was designed to do everything in the GUI. It's an idea worth getting used to.

- Jonathan Morton

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382683 is a reply to message #382680] Wed, 03 April 2019 09:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Eddy is currently offline  Charlie Eddy
Messages: 11
Registered: November 2017
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Junior Member
that's pretty interesting

it would be nice to know how developers developed

On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 3:41 AM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com>
wrote:

>>> MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no
> "Terminal."
>>
>> I've never used a system without a shell. Is there one?
>
> Not in a standard installation, no.
>
> There's MacsBug, which is a debugger, not really an independent CLI.
>
> There's AppleScript, which is a scripting language, not a CLI.
>
> And there was an advanced development environment, the name of which I
> forget right now, which was modular and shell-based and generally a little
> bit unixy. Most ordinary Mac users would be completely at sea if faced
> with it.
>
> Beyond that, the Mac really was designed to do everything in the GUI.
> It's an idea worth getting used to.
>
> - Jonathan Morton
>
> --
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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382688 is a reply to message #382683] Wed, 03 April 2019 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Hanson is currently offline  Chris Hanson
Messages: 26
Registered: September 2017
Karma: 0
Junior Member
Developers primarily worked using IDEs like THINK Pascal, THINK C, and Metrowerks CodeWarrior (which was very much the same style IDE as THINK C and a sort of spiritual successor). Resources were created visually with ResEdit and/or Resorcerer.

Only a relative minority of us ever wrote software Macintosh Programmer’s Workshop, which is the shell-like system Jonathan mentioned.

-- Chris

> On Apr 3, 2019, at 6:42 AM, Charlie Eddy <charlie@lettucehead.com> wrote:
>
> that's pretty interesting
>
> it would be nice to know how developers developed
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 3:41 AM Jonathan Morton <chromatix99@gmail.com <mailto:chromatix99@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no "Terminal."
>>
>> I've never used a system without a shell. Is there one?
>
> Not in a standard installation, no.
>
> There's MacsBug, which is a debugger, not really an independent CLI.
>
> There's AppleScript, which is a scripting language, not a CLI.
>
> And there was an advanced development environment, the name of which I forget right now, which was modular and shell-based and generally a little bit unixy. Most ordinary Mac users would be completely at sea if faced with it.
>
> Beyond that, the Mac really was designed to do everything in the GUI. It's an idea worth getting used to.
>
> - Jonathan Morton
>
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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382715 is a reply to message #382683] Fri, 05 April 2019 08:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marcio T is currently offline  Marcio T
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Some of the languages I used on an early Mac were Microsoft Basic, Lightspeed Pascal, ZBasic, Symantec THINK C and HyperTalk (HyperCard).

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382716 is a reply to message #382715] Fri, 05 April 2019 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mark@noakes.com is currently offline  mark@noakes.com
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Think C and Mach 2 Forth were exceptionally well done programming
environments.

Mark

On 4/5/19 8:46 AM, Marcio T wrote:
> Some of the languages I used on an early Mac were Microsoft Basic, Lightspeed Pascal, ZBasic, Symantec THINK C and HyperTalk (HyperCard).
>

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382717 is a reply to message #382688] Fri, 05 April 2019 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jonathan Morton is currently offline  Jonathan Morton
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> On 3 Apr, 2019, at 8:42 pm, Chris Hanson <cmhanson@eschatologist.net> wrote:
>
> Only a relative minority of us ever wrote software Macintosh Programmer’s Workshop, which is the shell-like system Jonathan mentioned.

MPW is exactly what I was thinking of - just couldn't remember the name, as I never used it myself! I did use CodeWarrior.

- Jonathan Morton

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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #382893 is a reply to message #382683] Sat, 06 April 2019 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thomas Pfaff is currently offline  Thomas Pfaff
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MPW was pretty much the defacto standard as far as anyone I knew.... with
very opinionated+passionate Think-C developers somewhere in distant
second! :-) I believe ThinkC was cheaper. MPW and the ETO services were
a bit pricey. I got what I needed while I worked at Ample Computer while
ETO subscriptions cost me very little.

I learned MPW and went to Everex + Broderbund where we of course used MPW.

MPW reproduced a good amount of UNIX functionality at the shell level.
Various folks often wrote "missing unix tools" for it... which is why I
tried A/UX 2.0, 3.0 and then migrated to NeXT... which amazingly, as I and
many others predicted around 1990, somehow became the Mac's new OS.

MPW really only worked well on IIfx machines and faster. It was ok on the
SE30 too. Anything less and it just took forever to build anything. That
was one reason why folks used ThinkC/Pascal... that toolset allowed you to
rapid-prototype modest software more simply on a lesser machine.

MPW was fun tho'. I was just glad someone paid me to use it coz it
required lots of (fun, engineer-oriented) tinkering. The complexity of C++
fit MPW perfectly, making everything exponentionally more complex to code
up but also opening up more possibilities as it (C++) deployed. C++
shipped initially as a front-end compiler which the Think-C people hated
(?) as I recall. All those daily wars are documented in the old newsgroups!

OK so daily in the usenet groups from ~1988-1992 timeframe there were
constantly MPW vs ThinkC/Pascal wars. Pretty severe + very jarring when I
first read the threads... trying to figure out which platform to get into.

As an aside somewhere I have a copy of Objective-C for MPW for Mac OS 6+7.
MPW supported C, Pascal, C++ and a lot of then-oddball languages.
The Macitnosh Toolbox (apis) were all in Pascal so there was always extra
foo left lying around the code.
At Broderbund we also used Macromind Director. These were when I was there
anyway a hacked subset of animation tools a few guys there had built in
MPW. They could take Macromind Director files and play them back. An
interesting, tho' dangerous approach.

I had forgotten everything about this subject until you guys mentioned it.
Thanks. I think. :-o

Oh when I tried CodeWarrior I determined never to code on the mac again!
A "Think C" type approach would have been popular about the time
CodeWarrior shipped I think.
NeXTStep and Newton were straightforward to program on... but the Mac.
Yikes.
Fewer customers (at that time) and always more complexity in writing app
software.

Thomas

On Wednesday, April 3, 2019 at 6:42:53 AM UTC-7, Charlie Eddy wrote:
>
> that's pretty interesting
>
> it would be nice to know how developers developed
>
> On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 3:41 AM Jonathan Morton <chrom...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>>>> MacOS 8+9 wasn't based on the Mach Microkernel so there is no
>> "Terminal."
>>>
>>> I've never used a system without a shell. Is there one?
>>
>> Not in a standard installation, no.
>>
>> There's MacsBug, which is a debugger, not really an independent CLI.
>>
>> There's AppleScript, which is a scripting language, not a CLI.
>>
>> And there was an advanced development environment, the name of which I
>> forget right now, which was modular and shell-based and generally a little
>> bit unixy. Most ordinary Mac users would be completely at sea if faced
>> with it.
>>
>> Beyond that, the Mac really was designed to do everything in the GUI.
>> It's an idea worth getting used to.
>>
>> - Jonathan Morton
>>
>> --
>> --
>> -----
>> You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs
>> group.
>> The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our
>> netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
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>> <javascript:>
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>> <javascript:>
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>> http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs
>>
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Re: Success with a Powerbook 520c [message #385661 is a reply to message #382893] Sat, 03 August 2019 16:15 Go to previous message
tortoise is currently offline  tortoise
Messages: 15
Registered: June 2015
Karma: 0
Junior Member
I've been learning Tcl / Tk and it makes a nice shell like extensible interface. You can get a version which still has limited support (8.4) on abandon-ware sites. I've been trying it on a 540 and it takes several minutes to load but after that not too bad considering. If you take it up, suggest trying it on say a Tiger ppc (I believe it shipped with 8.4); you can use Tiger to file-sharing to transfer files. 8.0 Tcl is much faster on 68k but most available extensions these days require later versions whereas you can still do a lot on 8.4; and once inside Tcl programs are portable across many operating systems. Tk is the graphics part, which you can also use in python. In OSX, tclsh can be used as a standard shell like bash in the terminal if you like. If you are interested I can make further suggestions on getting started. Especially helpful is book by Welch, comes with a very handy cd with extensions libraries and learning tool; and also the Tcl app TclTutor which you can download and run anywhere to try Tcl

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