| College admission bribery [message #382042] |
Fri, 15 March 2019 16:16  |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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There have been several news reports of celebrities using
apparently illegal means to get their children admitted to
college.
CNN article
https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme- how-it-worked/index.html
This include fake athletic credentials and plans. But
athletes of many sports have long had preferential treatment for
college admission. Heck, Eric Severaid did a piece on it years
ago.
Also, wealthy parents have long bought their kids into college
by a generous 'donation'. The president of IBM admitted
in his memoir that he got into Brown that way (though he was
very thankful to Brown and later donated a lot of his own
money to them.)
Further, there are mediocre private schools that commonly
accept wealthy kids who can't get into good schools.
For private schools, I'm not sure how a 'bribe' like that is
illegal. For private services, people offer 'bribes' for
preferential treatment all the time, commonly known as
tips.
However, falsifying an SAT score would seem to be outright
fraud which would be illegal.
What I don't understand is why there is so much desire to
get into a 'top' school. First off, if a kid is a weak
student, they're gonna struggle in a top school--the workload
will be too fast paced and complex for them. Secondly, plenty
of middle-grade colleges offer a reasonable education if the
kid is willing to work for it.
I hate to use a cliché, but when you cheat, you are only
cheating yourself. A parent who fakes their kid into
college is only hurting the kid for later life. The kid
may end up with a college degree, but out in the _real_
world, they'll quickly fail if they can't do the job.
Comments? (public replies please)
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382052 is a reply to message #382042] |
Fri, 15 March 2019 16:50  |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Fri, 15 Mar 2019 13:16:32 -0700 (PDT), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> There have been several news reports of celebrities using
> apparently illegal means to get their children admitted to
> college.
>
> CNN article
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme- how-it-worked/index.html
>
> This include fake athletic credentials and plans. But
> athletes of many sports have long had preferential treatment for
> college admission. Heck, Eric Severaid did a piece on it years
> ago.
>
> Also, wealthy parents have long bought their kids into college
> by a generous 'donation'. The president of IBM admitted
> in his memoir that he got into Brown that way (though he was
> very thankful to Brown and later donated a lot of his own
> money to them.)
>
> Further, there are mediocre private schools that commonly
> accept wealthy kids who can't get into good schools.
>
> For private schools, I'm not sure how a 'bribe' like that is
> illegal. For private services, people offer 'bribes' for
> preferential treatment all the time, commonly known as
> tips.
>
> However, falsifying an SAT score would seem to be outright
> fraud which would be illegal.
>
> What I don't understand is why there is so much desire to
> get into a 'top' school. First off, if a kid is a weak
> student, they're gonna struggle in a top school--the workload
> will be too fast paced and complex for them. Secondly, plenty
> of middle-grade colleges offer a reasonable education if the
> kid is willing to work for it.
Its the name of the graduation certificate that looks good to some
people. I have had employers mention to me, after being hired, they
didn't much luck with people who went to ivy league schools.
Now I know why. Some were over their heads.
> I hate to use a cliché, but when you cheat, you are only
> cheating yourself. A parent who fakes their kid into
> college is only hurting the kid for later life. The kid
> may end up with a college degree, but out in the _real_
> world, they'll quickly fail if they can't do the job.
>
> Comments? (public replies please)
I've heard that 'cheating yourself' since I was a kid. I have met
people over the decades who had high grades, and couldn't do the work.
--
Jim
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382058 is a reply to message #382042] |
Fri, 15 March 2019 20:17 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> There have been several news reports of celebrities using
> apparently illegal means to get their children admitted to
> college.
>
> CNN article
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme- how-it-worked/index.html
>
> This include fake athletic credentials and plans. But
> athletes of many sports have long had preferential treatment for
> college admission. Heck, Eric Severaid did a piece on it years
> ago.
>
> Also, wealthy parents have long bought their kids into college
> by a generous 'donation'. The president of IBM admitted
> in his memoir that he got into Brown that way (though he was
> very thankful to Brown and later donated a lot of his own
> money to them.)
>
> Further, there are mediocre private schools that commonly
> accept wealthy kids who can't get into good schools.
>
> For private schools, I'm not sure how a 'bribe' like that is
> illegal. For private services, people offer 'bribes' for
> preferential treatment all the time, commonly known as
> tips.
>
> However, falsifying an SAT score would seem to be outright
> fraud which would be illegal.
>
> What I don't understand is why there is so much desire to
> get into a 'top' school. First off, if a kid is a weak
> student, they're gonna struggle in a top school--the workload
> will be too fast paced and complex for them.
There are probably plenty of “calculus for athletes” courses they can take.
My understanding is that you don’t necessarily get a better education at
Yale than at UofA, but you get the prestige of the name on the degree and
also you get to be friends with a lot of rich kids who can help you in
various ways later in life.
> Secondly, plenty
> of middle-grade colleges offer a reasonable education if the
> kid is willing to work for it.
I think you can get a top-notch education at a lot of places, and various
colleges would be a better fit for a particular student’s interests and
aptitudes than others.
>
> I hate to use a cliché, but when you cheat, you are only
> cheating yourself. A parent who fakes their kid into
> college is only hurting the kid for later life. The kid
> may end up with a college degree, but out in the _real_
> world, they'll quickly fail if they can't do the job.
>
They go on to become Youtube “celebrities”.
> Comments? (public replies please)
>
--
Pete
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382076 is a reply to message #382052] |
Sat, 16 March 2019 11:22 |
Niklas Karlsson
Messages: 265
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-03-15, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've heard that 'cheating yourself' since I was a kid. I have met
> people over the decades who had high grades, and couldn't do the work.
Similarly, there are non-degreed people out there who do an excellent
job. Having a degree in, say, CS is useful for understanding things like
algorithms if you're to be a developer, but in the end, much of IT is a
craft.
Niklas
--
I think it's a beautiful day to go to the zoo and feed the ducks.
To the lions.
-- Brian Kantor
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382077 is a reply to message #382076] |
Sat, 16 March 2019 11:26 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On 16 Mar 2019 15:22:52 GMT, Niklas Karlsson <anksil@yahoo.se> wrote:
> On 2019-03-15, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've heard that 'cheating yourself' since I was a kid. I have met
>> people over the decades who had high grades, and couldn't do the work.
>
> Similarly, there are non-degreed people out there who do an excellent
> job. Having a degree in, say, CS is useful for understanding things like
> algorithms if you're to be a developer, but in the end, much of IT is a
> craft.
>
> Niklas
My Bachelors is in programming, but I went with computer repair and
installs. All on the job training.
--
Jim
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382081 is a reply to message #382076] |
Sat, 16 March 2019 12:32 |
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Originally posted by: Gareth's was W7 now W10 Downstairs Computer
On 16/03/2019 15:22, Niklas Karlsson wrote:
> On 2019-03-15, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've heard that 'cheating yourself' since I was a kid. I have met
>> people over the decades who had high grades, and couldn't do the work.
>
> Similarly, there are non-degreed people out there who do an excellent
> job. Having a degree in, say, CS is useful for understanding things like
> algorithms if you're to be a developer, but in the end, much of IT is a
> craft.
As with many jobs, there are those who are born naturals and there are
those who have to be trained, the latter being a mediocre alternative to
the former, with schoolteachers being a prime example.
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382093 is a reply to message #382042] |
Sat, 16 March 2019 15:16 |
Alfred Falk
Messages: 195
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote in
news:97016453-e112-46ee-adfb-b81052d08fef@googlegroups.com:
> There have been several news reports of celebrities using
> apparently illegal means to get their children admitted to
> college.
>
> CNN article
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/college-admissions-scheme- how-it-worke
> d/index.html
>
> This include fake athletic credentials and plans. But
> athletes of many sports have long had preferential treatment for
> college admission. Heck, Eric Severaid did a piece on it years
> ago.
>
> Also, wealthy parents have long bought their kids into college
> by a generous 'donation'. The president of IBM admitted
> in his memoir that he got into Brown that way (though he was
> very thankful to Brown and later donated a lot of his own
> money to them.)
>
> Further, there are mediocre private schools that commonly
> accept wealthy kids who can't get into good schools.
>
> For private schools, I'm not sure how a 'bribe' like that is
> illegal. For private services, people offer 'bribes' for
> preferential treatment all the time, commonly known as
> tips.
>
> However, falsifying an SAT score would seem to be outright
> fraud which would be illegal.
>
> What I don't understand is why there is so much desire to
> get into a 'top' school. First off, if a kid is a weak
> student, they're gonna struggle in a top school--the workload
> will be too fast paced and complex for them. Secondly, plenty
> of middle-grade colleges offer a reasonable education if the
> kid is willing to work for it.
Prestige is one thing. The ranking of the school in public perception is
valuable in itself to the graduate in many areas, particularly non-
technical.
Probably more important is the "old-boys' network". For many careers, this
is the _only_ thing that matters.
> I hate to use a cliché, but when you cheat, you are only
> cheating yourself. A parent who fakes their kid into
> college is only hurting the kid for later life. The kid
> may end up with a college degree, but out in the _real_
> world, they'll quickly fail if they can't do the job.
>
> Comments? (public replies please)
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382109 is a reply to message #382052] |
Sat, 16 March 2019 16:30 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, March 15, 2019 at 4:51:04 PM UTC-4, JimP wrote:
> Its the name of the graduation certificate that looks good to some
> people. I have had employers mention to me, after being hired, they
> didn't much luck with people who went to ivy league schools.
I always wondered how many employers cared about the actual
college a job candidate attended---as opposed to merely having
a college degree. None of my employers cared, but that's obviously
not representative.
If you were an employer, which compsci grad would you rather hire?
a) "C" grades from a prestigious or Ivy League school.
b) "A" grades from an everyday college.
I do know some employers wanted kids with good or even top grades,
though they didn't seem to care which school they came from.
Many seemed to want a kid in the top half. (So what happened
to kids in the bottom half?)
I get the impression that today employers check a candidate's
credentials more carefully than in the distant past. But I
don't know how modern employers evaluate college performance.
My own impression is that it's harder today for kids coming
out of school than my generation, despite it being a recession
and engineering cutback. Even for liberal arts majors back
then, plenty of corporations and govt had mgmt training
programs that required only a college degree--they'd train
you for a job (even programming or accounting). Not sure
if there's much of that today.
For instance, in my city there were several large banks
each with large back office staffs. There were also a few
large department stores, again with big back offices. A
few insurance companies. ALL of that is gone. All of
the companies were bought out and HQ moved elsewhere.
Several handsome insurance company buildings are now condos.
One big dept store is now a parking garage.
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382110 is a reply to message #382093] |
Sat, 16 March 2019 16:35 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Saturday, March 16, 2019 at 3:16:43 PM UTC-4, Alfred Falk wrote:
> Probably more important is the "old-boys' network". For many careers, this
> is the _only_ thing that matters.
Interesting. That meant nothing to me nor to do people I knew, but
I suppose people in other fields may have benefited from it.
I know a young person who just graduated Yale Law. For him, the
contacts made in law school were important to get a high-end job.
For what it's worth, this boy reports that, today, the law
profession is binary in career choices--either high or low.
That is, you get some very intensive high pressure (but high
pay) job at a fancy law firm, or you get some crap job at a
storefront office. Almost nothing in between. (In his opinion).
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382130 is a reply to message #382109] |
Sun, 17 March 2019 07:18 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 16 Mar 2019 13:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> I always wondered how many employers cared about the actual
> college a job candidate attended---as opposed to merely having
> a college degree. None of my employers cared, but that's obviously
> not representative.
Depends on the college, my incomplete degree from Cambridge counted
more than a first from many other places according to one recruiter, these
days my experience counts far more than my education.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382134 is a reply to message #382109] |
Sun, 17 March 2019 10:17 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Friday, March 15, 2019 at 4:51:04 PM UTC-4, JimP wrote:
>
>> Its the name of the graduation certificate that looks good to some
>> people. I have had employers mention to me, after being hired, they
>> didn't much luck with people who went to ivy league schools.
>
> I always wondered how many employers cared about the actual
> college a job candidate attended---as opposed to merely having
> a college degree. None of my employers cared, but that's obviously
> not representative.
My impression is that it’s more true for jobs where the prestige is
important: big city law firms, investment banking, etc. They sell the firm
based partly on the number of ivy league graduates they hsve.
>
> If you were an employer, which compsci grad would you rather hire?
> a) "C" grades from a prestigious or Ivy League school.
> b) "A" grades from an everyday college.
>
> I do know some employers wanted kids with good or even top grades,
> though they didn't seem to care which school they came from.
> Many seemed to want a kid in the top half. (So what happened
> to kids in the bottom half?)
>
> I get the impression that today employers check a candidate's
> credentials more carefully than in the distant past. But I
> don't know how modern employers evaluate college performance.
>
> My own impression is that it's harder today for kids coming
> out of school than my generation, despite it being a recession
> and engineering cutback. Even for liberal arts majors back
> then, plenty of corporations and govt had mgmt training
> programs that required only a college degree--they'd train
> you for a job (even programming or accounting). Not sure
> if there's much of that today.
I agree, although I must have sent out 20 applications or more for my first
job. Many big companies had training programs where they’d rotate the new
hires through a series of jobs so they could learn how the company worked,
but of course that was when people could be expected to work all their
lives for the same company. Now, with job changes so frequent such a
program wouldn’t pay.
>
--
Pete
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| Re: College admission bribery [message #382136 is a reply to message #382134] |
Sun, 17 March 2019 11:21 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Sun, 17 Mar 2019 07:17:19 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Friday, March 15, 2019 at 4:51:04 PM UTC-4, JimP wrote:
>>
>>> Its the name of the graduation certificate that looks good to some
>>> people. I have had employers mention to me, after being hired, they
>>> didn't much luck with people who went to ivy league schools.
>>
>> I always wondered how many employers cared about the actual
>> college a job candidate attended---as opposed to merely having
>> a college degree. None of my employers cared, but that's obviously
>> not representative.
>
> My impression is that its more true for jobs where the prestige is
> important: big city law firms, investment banking, etc. They sell the firm
> based partly on the number of ivy league graduates they hsve.
>
>>
>> If you were an employer, which compsci grad would you rather hire?
>> a) "C" grades from a prestigious or Ivy League school.
>> b) "A" grades from an everyday college.
>>
>> I do know some employers wanted kids with good or even top grades,
>> though they didn't seem to care which school they came from.
>> Many seemed to want a kid in the top half. (So what happened
>> to kids in the bottom half?)
>>
>> I get the impression that today employers check a candidate's
>> credentials more carefully than in the distant past. But I
>> don't know how modern employers evaluate college performance.
>>
>> My own impression is that it's harder today for kids coming
>> out of school than my generation, despite it being a recession
>> and engineering cutback. Even for liberal arts majors back
>> then, plenty of corporations and govt had mgmt training
>> programs that required only a college degree--they'd train
>> you for a job (even programming or accounting). Not sure
>> if there's much of that today.
>
> I agree, although I must have sent out 20 applications or more for my first
> job. Many big companies had training programs where theyd rotate the new
> hires through a series of jobs so they could learn how the company worked,
> but of course that was when people could be expected to work all their
> lives for the same company. Now, with job changes so frequent such a
> program wouldnt pay.
Depends on the company and the job. We rotate actuarial new hires
through a bunch of different departments.
The notion that all millennials want to work in a gig economy is
pretty much wrong. They want the right job and they're willing to
move around until they find it, but most of them don't want to be
job-hopping for the rest of their lives.
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