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A daft idea... [message #381213] Sun, 17 February 2019 21:27 Go to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
So earlier I was trying to teach myself how to code directly for WinAPI,
so I could do some arcade emulators both for win16 and win32 (because my
main two computers are a 64-bit Win8.1 machine and a Pentium/133 running
PC DOS 5 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11)...

I got to thinking - I'd kinda like to see a workalike of AppleWin over on
my Pentium so that I feel more comfortable running Apple ][ emulation
there.

I haven't started yet - trying to find out some information about how to
detect the 16 vs. 32-bit version of Watcom so I can build in both modes -
but this is probably going to go over my head at some point.
(Alternatively I might be able to do Win32S or use Watcom's Windows
extender, and have both versions be 32-bit.)

(I'm guessing that even if I try using C++, which I don't know how to use,
compiler differences should mean that I can't reuse much, if any, AppleWin
code.)

-uso.
Re: A daft idea... [message #381214 is a reply to message #381213] Sun, 17 February 2019 22:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

On Sunday, February 17, 2019 at 6:27:33 PM UTC-8, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> So earlier I was trying to teach myself how to code directly for WinAPI,
> so I could do some arcade emulators both for win16 and win32 (because my
> main two computers are a 64-bit Win8.1 machine and a Pentium/133 running
> PC DOS 5 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11)...
>
> I got to thinking - I'd kinda like to see a workalike of AppleWin over on
> my Pentium so that I feel more comfortable running Apple ][ emulation
> there.
>
> I haven't started yet - trying to find out some information about how to
> detect the 16 vs. 32-bit version of Watcom so I can build in both modes -
> but this is probably going to go over my head at some point.
> (Alternatively I might be able to do Win32S or use Watcom's Windows
> extender, and have both versions be 32-bit.)
>
> (I'm guessing that even if I try using C++, which I don't know how to use,
> compiler differences should mean that I can't reuse much, if any, AppleWin
> code.)
>
> -uso.

Will the last version of AppleWin (or an even earlier version) that worked for Windows 98SE (32-bit) [< AppleWin v.1.26] work for you?
Re: A daft idea... [message #381215 is a reply to message #381214] Sun, 17 February 2019 22:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 17 Feb 2019, James Davis wrote:

> On Sunday, February 17, 2019 at 6:27:33 PM UTC-8, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> So earlier I was trying to teach myself how to code directly for WinAPI,
>> so I could do some arcade emulators both for win16 and win32 (because my
>> main two computers are a 64-bit Win8.1 machine and a Pentium/133 running
>> PC DOS 5 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11)...
>>
>> I got to thinking - I'd kinda like to see a workalike of AppleWin over on
>> my Pentium so that I feel more comfortable running Apple ][ emulation
>> there.
>>
>> I haven't started yet - trying to find out some information about how to
>> detect the 16 vs. 32-bit version of Watcom so I can build in both modes -
>> but this is probably going to go over my head at some point.
>> (Alternatively I might be able to do Win32S or use Watcom's Windows
>> extender, and have both versions be 32-bit.)
>>
>> (I'm guessing that even if I try using C++, which I don't know how to use,
>> compiler differences should mean that I can't reuse much, if any, AppleWin
>> code.)
>>
>> -uso.
>
> Will the last version of AppleWin (or an even earlier version) that worked for Windows 98SE (32-bit) [< AppleWin v.1.26] work for you?
>

I don't think so. They use DX - I think all the way back to the first
versions I tried back in high school, 20+ years ago, there'd be no way to
coax the code onto 3.1 even with an extender or Win32S.

(I know, I'm crazy.)

I do wonder if pieces of the current AppleWin could be recycled, but I'd
have to figure a way to jigger the code. I'm not sure how similar MSC++
and Watcom C++ are.

-uso.
Re: A daft idea... [message #381238 is a reply to message #381215] Mon, 18 February 2019 14:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael AppleWin Debu is currently offline  Michael AppleWin Debu
Messages: 1262
Registered: March 2013
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Senior Member
> Pentium/133 running PC DOS 5 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11)...

Back in the Pentium days I used to run ApplePC under DOS since it is/was pretty snappy.

For Win32S you will have to use DirectDraw (or OpenGL.) DirectDraw morphed into Direct2D which was supported until DX7.

Unfortunately AppleWin is tied pretty heavily to Microsoft's proprietary C++ extensions with MSVC (Microsoft's Visual C++ Compiler) along with DirectX. I can forsee running into a few issues:

* Compiling the C++ code with OpenWatcom, and
* DirectDraw support
* I'm not sure what version(s) of DirectX OpenWatcom supports.

Removing all the Windows specific code is definitely going to be a bit of a bear. You may want to look into LinApple ...
http://linapple.sourceforge.net/

.... or the port of it to the Raspberry Pi ...
https://github.com/dabonetn/linapple-pie

.... to see how all the Windows specific stuff was handled as LinApple and its forks use SDL 1.2.

Cheers
Michael
Re: A daft idea... [message #381239 is a reply to message #381213] Mon, 18 February 2019 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: kegs

In article <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902172122210.58199@frieza.hoshinet.org>,
Steve Nickolas <usotsuki@buric.co> wrote:
> So earlier I was trying to teach myself how to code directly for WinAPI,
> so I could do some arcade emulators both for win16 and win32 (because my
> main two computers are a 64-bit Win8.1 machine and a Pentium/133 running
> PC DOS 5 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11)...
>
> I got to thinking - I'd kinda like to see a workalike of AppleWin over on
> my Pentium so that I feel more comfortable running Apple ][ emulation
> there.
>
> I haven't started yet - trying to find out some information about how to
> detect the 16 vs. 32-bit version of Watcom so I can build in both modes -
> but this is probably going to go over my head at some point.
> (Alternatively I might be able to do Win32S or use Watcom's Windows
> extender, and have both versions be 32-bit.)
>
> (I'm guessing that even if I try using C++, which I don't know how to use,
> compiler differences should mean that I can't reuse much, if any, AppleWin
> code.)
>
> -uso.

KEGS is an Apple IIgs emulator that has several Windows ports. I don't really
understand the Windows platform, but it looks like KEGS uses pretty basic
windows calls, and nothing is C++. But it is Windows32, I'm never going to
mess about with Win16. You can get the KEGS WIN32 source at
http://kegs.sourceforge.net/. That code is from 2004, so it's still Fresh.

I estimate KEGS should run at about 6MHz on a 133MHz Pentium, so it easily
will run 1MHz Apple II software.

Kent
Re: A daft idea... [message #381240 is a reply to message #381238] Mon, 18 February 2019 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 18 Feb 2019, Michael AppleWin Debugger Dev wrote:

>> Pentium/133 running PC DOS 5 and Windows for Workgroups 3.11)...
>
> Back in the Pentium days I used to run ApplePC under DOS since it is/was
> pretty snappy.

As did I, and still sometimes do.

> For Win32S you will have to use DirectDraw (or OpenGL.) DirectDraw
> morphed into Direct2D which was supported until DX7.

Direct anything worked on 3.x with 32s?

> Unfortunately AppleWin is tied pretty heavily to Microsoft's proprietary
> C++ extensions with MSVC (Microsoft's Visual C++ Compiler) along with
> DirectX. I can forsee running into a few issues:
>
> * Compiling the C++ code with OpenWatcom, and
> * DirectDraw support
> * I'm not sure what version(s) of DirectX OpenWatcom supports.
>
> Removing all the Windows specific code is definitely going to be a bit
> of a bear. You may want to look into LinApple ...
> http://linapple.sourceforge.net/
>
> ... or the port of it to the Raspberry Pi ...
> https://github.com/dabonetn/linapple-pie
>
> ... to see how all the Windows specific stuff was handled as LinApple
> and its forks use SDL 1.2.

Hm. I should see how much of AppleWin survived, because I seem to recall
the most important part, the debugger (;)) didn't.

-uso.
Re: A daft idea... [message #381249 is a reply to message #381239] Mon, 18 February 2019 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Christopher G. Mason is currently offline  Christopher G. Mason
Messages: 156
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2/18/2019 2:31 PM, Kent Dickey wrote:
> KEGS is an Apple IIgs emulator that has several Windows ports. I don't really
> understand the Windows platform, but it looks like KEGS uses pretty basic
> windows calls, and nothing is C++. But it is Windows32, I'm never going to
> mess about with Win16. You can get the KEGS WIN32 source at
> http://kegs.sourceforge.net/. That code is from 2004, so it's still Fresh.
>
> I estimate KEGS should run at about 6MHz on a 133MHz Pentium, so it easily
> will run 1MHz Apple II software.
>
> Kent
>

Are you aware that KEGS has been forked since 2004? ;)

Fixes some annoying bugs too.

https://github.com/david-schmidt/gsport
https://github.com/digarok/gsplus
Re: A daft idea... [message #381250 is a reply to message #381249] Mon, 18 February 2019 16:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 18 Feb 2019, Christopher G. Mason wrote:

> Are you aware that KEGS has been forked since 2004? ;)

It being that ancient probably is an advantage as far as using a crufty
old compiler like Watcom goes. ;)

-uso.
Re: A daft idea... [message #381258 is a reply to message #381249] Mon, 18 February 2019 20:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: kegs

In article <q4f42e$l7n$1@dont-email.me>,
Christopher G. Mason <cgm1@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On 2/18/2019 2:31 PM, Kent Dickey wrote:
>> KEGS is an Apple IIgs emulator that has several Windows ports. I don't really
>> understand the Windows platform, but it looks like KEGS uses pretty basic
>> windows calls, and nothing is C++. But it is Windows32, I'm never going to
>> mess about with Win16. You can get the KEGS WIN32 source at
>> http://kegs.sourceforge.net/. That code is from 2004, so it's still Fresh.
>>
>> I estimate KEGS should run at about 6MHz on a 133MHz Pentium, so it easily
>> will run 1MHz Apple II software.
>>
>> Kent
>>
>
> Are you aware that KEGS has been forked since 2004? ;)
>
> Fixes some annoying bugs too.
>
> https://github.com/david-schmidt/gsport
> https://github.com/digarok/gsplus

Yes, but they use SDL2, which I wasn't sure would port back to old Windows
or not.

What annoying bugs does GSPORT or GSPLUS fix? I'm aware they have a bunch
of nifty new features, so you don't have to explain those to me.

Kent
Re: A daft idea... [message #381259 is a reply to message #381258] Mon, 18 February 2019 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Christopher G. Mason is currently offline  Christopher G. Mason
Messages: 156
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2/18/2019 8:41 PM, Kent Dickey wrote:
> What annoying bugs does GSPORT or GSPLUS fix? I'm aware they have a bunch
> of nifty new features, so you don't have to explain those to me.
>
> Kent
>

Ensoniq DOC bugs. There was a problem with SynthLab music (among other
things) going out of tune, also a problem with swap mode that reared its
ugly head with NinjaTracker. GSport still has the ye olde Win32 platform
code in place. GSplus went SDL2 with everything.

Really wouldn't want to port any of that to pure Win16 though (64k
segments GAHGHHH!). Fact of the matter is a P133 can run Windows 9x just
fine with KEGS... I did it back in the day!
Re: A daft idea... [message #381260 is a reply to message #381259] Mon, 18 February 2019 21:52 Go to previous message
Steve Nickolas is currently offline  Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 18 Feb 2019, Christopher G. Mason wrote:

> Really wouldn't want to port any of that to pure Win16 though (64k segments
> GAHGHHH!). Fact of the matter is a P133 can run Windows 9x just fine with
> KEGS... I did it back in the day!

Watcom had a Windows extender called Win386 - it's still part of their
compiler tools, actually - not sure how API-compatible it is with Win32.

I know I could run 95 on my P133 - I just chose to stick with DOS and 3.11
(and Windows rarely even gets loaded).

-uso.
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