| TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379664] |
Mon, 14 January 2019 15:40  |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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FREEFORM channel has premiered a program, "Good Trouble", about
two new graduates making their way in LA. One girl is a lawyer,
but the other is a MIT graduate who got a job in a modernistic
software house. The girls, sisters, live in a communal warehouse.
Personally, I didn't care for the show. It seems loaded with
clichés and is trying to be way too trendy. On her first night,
the lawyer bedded a neighbor in the building whom her sister
had a crush on. But maybe some folks here might find it of
interest.
https://freeform.go.com/shows/good-trouble
I wonder how realistic it is for a programmer just out of school.
My employer does not have a massusse, ping pong table, or
other break room amenities. We have a soda machine. For
lunch, we have a place with a very limited menu, basically
sandwiches and a soup; we don't have exotic foods.
For kids out of school, we don't have any super-hip warehouses
converted to fancy living. Kids usually find some stranger as
a roommate and get an apartment. They usually clash over the
bathroom and kitchen and having a guest spend the night.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379668 is a reply to message #379664] |
Mon, 14 January 2019 17:22  |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> FREEFORM channel has premiered a program, "Good Trouble", about
> two new graduates making their way in LA. One girl is a lawyer,
> but the other is a MIT graduate who got a job in a modernistic
> software house. The girls, sisters, live in a communal warehouse.
>
> Personally, I didn't care for the show. It seems loaded with
> clichés and is trying to be way too trendy. On her first night,
> the lawyer bedded a neighbor in the building whom her sister
> had a crush on. But maybe some folks here might find it of
> interest.
>
> https://freeform.go.com/shows/good-trouble
>
> I wonder how realistic it is for a programmer just out of school.
>
> My employer does not have a massusse, ping pong table, or
> other break room amenities. We have a soda machine. For
> lunch, we have a place with a very limited menu, basically
> sandwiches and a soup; we don't have exotic foods.
>
I’ve seen some of this - minus the masseuse - but have never worked in such
a place. Pingpong tables are fairly common, I think.
--
Pete
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379676 is a reply to message #379664] |
Mon, 14 January 2019 21:56 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Mon, 14 Jan 2019 12:40:06 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> FREEFORM channel has premiered a program, "Good Trouble", about
> two new graduates making their way in LA. One girl is a lawyer,
> but the other is a MIT graduate who got a job in a modernistic
> software house. The girls, sisters, live in a communal warehouse.
>
> Personally, I didn't care for the show. It seems loaded with
> clichés and is trying to be way too trendy. On her first night,
> the lawyer bedded a neighbor in the building whom her sister
> had a crush on. But maybe some folks here might find it of
> interest.
>
> https://freeform.go.com/shows/good-trouble
>
> I wonder how realistic it is for a programmer just out of school.
>
> My employer does not have a massusse, ping pong table, or
> other break room amenities. We have a soda machine. For
> lunch, we have a place with a very limited menu, basically
> sandwiches and a soup; we don't have exotic foods.
That depends on where you work. We have a full fitness center, tennis
courts, basketball courts, meditation rooms, chair massage, sushi on
Thursdays, an attempt at some sort of Asian (Chinese, Korean,
Vietnamese, etc) every day, and so on. One of the people I work with
has a relative at Microsoft, he goes out there regularly and he says
that Microsoft has a lot more amenities than we have. OTOH, a PPOE
that is larger than my current employer didn't provide much of
anything.
> For kids out of school, we don't have any super-hip warehouses
> converted to fancy living. Kids usually find some stranger as
> a roommate and get an apartment. They usually clash over the
> bathroom and kitchen and having a guest spend the night.
"Intentional Communities" seem to be an LA thing. Rent would be under
1K a month in a place like that.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379690 is a reply to message #379664] |
Tue, 15 January 2019 11:14 |
scott
Messages: 4272
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> FREEFORM channel has premiered a program, "Good Trouble", about
> two new graduates making their way in LA. One girl is a lawyer,
> but the other is a MIT graduate who got a job in a modernistic
> software house. The girls, sisters, live in a communal warehouse.
>
> Personally, I didn't care for the show. It seems loaded with
> clich=C3=A9s and is trying to be way too trendy. On her first night,
> the lawyer bedded a neighbor in the building whom her sister
> had a crush on. But maybe some folks here might find it of
> interest.
>
> https://freeform.go.com/shows/good-trouble
>
> I wonder how realistic it is for a programmer just out of school.
Probably pretty realistic in the SF Bay Area.
>
> My employer does not have a massusse, ping pong table, or
> other break room amenities.
Pretty common around here.
> We have a soda machine.
Before we were acquired last year by a larger company, we had
free sodas, juices, snacks and fancy coffee machines; along with
dart boards, foosball and and outdoor basketball court.
Post acquisition, no free drinks (Sodas are a quarter in the
machines) or snacks. But a full gym, outdoor vollyball and
basketball courts and a nice cafeteria (salmon and prime rib
aren't uncommon offerings) (lunch flat USD5) and a small coffee/espresso
bar (flat $1).
>
> For kids out of school, we don't have any super-hip warehouses
> converted to fancy living.
Again, not uncommon in SF; to the point where many young
google employees take a company bus from SF to Mountain View
for work every day; and the SOMA district has been gentrifying.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379697 is a reply to message #379690] |
Tue, 15 January 2019 15:59 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:14:50 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Again, not uncommon in SF; to the point where many young
> google employees take a company bus from SF to Mountain View
> for work every day; and the SOMA district has been gentrifying.
Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379698 is a reply to message #379697] |
Tue, 15 January 2019 16:42 |
scott
Messages: 4272
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:14:50 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Again, not uncommon in SF; to the point where many young
>> google employees take a company bus from SF to Mountain View
>> for work every day; and the SOMA district has been gentrifying.
>
> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>
Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or SAP ERP
or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379701 is a reply to message #379698] |
Tue, 15 January 2019 17:16 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 4:42:44 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:14:50 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> Again, not uncommon in SF; to the point where many young
>>> google employees take a company bus from SF to Mountain View
>>> for work every day; and the SOMA district has been gentrifying.
>>
>> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>
>
> Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
> available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
> someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or SAP ERP
> or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
>
> Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
> design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
What is "hard core" programming, as opposed to any other kind?
I would assume businesses still need some custom software for their
specialized needs and not that everything can be done by something
"out of the box". Further, even when using a packaged solution,
in many cases it needs extensive customization (like a payroll).
Despite centralization, there are still lots of independent banks,
insurance companies, retailers, and even factories out there.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379703 is a reply to message #379698] |
Tue, 15 January 2019 19:25 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:14:50 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> Again, not uncommon in SF; to the point where many young
>>> google employees take a company bus from SF to Mountain View
>>> for work every day; and the SOMA district has been gentrifying.
>>
>> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>
>
> Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
> available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
> someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or SAP ERP
> or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
>
> Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
> design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
We're in Sprinfield, MA. We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a
substantial server farm, and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin
systems. And unlike a lot of industries where one can retire the
admin system when new products come out, our products may have to be
supported well into the 22nd Century.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379704 is a reply to message #379697] |
Tue, 15 January 2019 19:38 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 15, 2019 at 11:14:50 AM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> Again, not uncommon in SF; to the point where many young
>> google employees take a company bus from SF to Mountain View
>> for work every day; and the SOMA district has been gentrifying.
>
> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>
>
Back in the day I was happy to work in an old factory or warehouse. The
suits had the fancy digs, and would never bother to come bug us.
--
Pete
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379732 is a reply to message #379703] |
Wed, 16 January 2019 10:39 |
scott
Messages: 4272
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
> wrote:
>>>
>>> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>>> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>>> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>>
>>
>> Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
>> available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
>> someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or SAP ERP
>> or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
>>
>> Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
>> design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
>
> We're in Sprinfield, MA.
Which was not listed in the aforementioned group of cities.
> We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a
> substantial server farm, and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin
> systems. And unlike a lot of industries where one can retire the
> admin system when new products come out, our products may have to be
> supported well into the 22nd Century.
An outlier, to be sure.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379738 is a reply to message #379732] |
Wed, 16 January 2019 12:29 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5354
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-01-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>>>> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>>>> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>>
>>> Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
>>> available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
>>> someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or
>>> SAP ERP or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
>>>
>>> Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
>>> design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
>>
>> We're in Sprinfield, MA.
>
> Which was not listed in the aforementioned group of cities.
That list was meant only as an example.
>> We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a substantial server farm,
>> and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin systems. And unlike
>> a lot of industries where one can retire the admin system when new
>> products come out, our products may have to be supported well into
>> the 22nd Century.
>
> An outlier, to be sure.
Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ Fight low-contrast text in web pages! http://contrastrebellion.com
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379739 is a reply to message #379664] |
Wed, 16 January 2019 12:42 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2019, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> FREEFORM channel has premiered a program, "Good Trouble", about
> two new graduates making their way in LA. One girl is a lawyer,
> but the other is a MIT graduate who got a job in a modernistic
> software house. The girls, sisters, live in a communal warehouse.
>
> Personally, I didn't care for the show. It seems loaded with
> clichés and is trying to be way too trendy. On her first night,
> the lawyer bedded a neighbor in the building whom her sister
> had a crush on. But maybe some folks here might find it of
> interest.
>
> https://freeform.go.com/shows/good-trouble
>
> I wonder how realistic it is for a programmer just out of school.
>
> My employer does not have a massusse, ping pong table, or
> other break room amenities. We have a soda machine. For
> lunch, we have a place with a very limited menu, basically
> sandwiches and a soup; we don't have exotic foods.
>
> For kids out of school, we don't have any super-hip warehouses
> converted to fancy living. Kids usually find some stranger as
> a roommate and get an apartment. They usually clash over the
> bathroom and kitchen and having a guest spend the night.
>
There's lots of fiction about "new business" over the past twenty years
where it's shown as a less formal setting, with lots of perks. The
employees are "creative" types so they need to be able to work when they
want (well, maybe they need to be in every day, but not necessarily
between 9-5), and neee a less rigid arrangement.
I thought there was some reality to this, at least some years back. I
thought Apple did it to some extent, but maybe that was less deliberate
than because they had people working hard in the early days to get things
launched, and maybe lack of money meant a less formal arrangement. I
though there were other places.
There was a local company, Zero Knowledge Systens, were working on some
privacy software circa 1998, and it got local press about their place of
business that seemed to match this stereotype. I remember they'd spam the
local newsgroup, telling us of their early chance to see the new (at the
time) Star Wars film, and I thought telling us of their other perks,
clearly an attempt to lure employees in. My thought at the time was they
got a lot of publicity about their workplace structure, but it didn't
really say much about their product. This was the internet boom time,
they got a lot of money from investors, so why not spend it on odd but
expensive officer furniture or whatever?
I also remember that when the product was finished, nobody was really
interested in it, so insted of making lots of money, they had to work
deals with other companies to include it with their products, so they'd
get a few dollars per unit, but that's from memory.
Wikipedia has an entry on them, but I'm not sure if they still exist. I
know I haven't heard of them in a long time, I had to makea few guesses
before I could remember the company name.
Michael
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379740 is a reply to message #379738] |
Wed, 16 January 2019 13:17 |
Alan Bowler
Messages: 185
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2019-01-16 12:29 p.m., Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
Look north, Waterloo, Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Vancouver,
Calgary, Edmonton all have "real" programming jobs.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379756 is a reply to message #379732] |
Wed, 16 January 2019 20:12 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>> wrote:
>
>>>>
>>>> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>>>> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>>>> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
>>> available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
>>> someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or SAP ERP
>>> or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
>>>
>>> Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
>>> design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
>>
>> We're in Sprinfield, MA.
>
> Which was not listed in the aforementioned group of cities.
>
>
>> We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a
>> substantial server farm, and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin
>> systems. And unlike a lot of industries where one can retire the
>> admin system when new products come out, our products may have to be
>> supported well into the 22nd Century.
>
> An outlier, to be sure.
>
Not really. PPOE in Albany, NY had two mainframes, z/OS and z/VM, all text
applications went thru VM, which was also a server for all of our web
applications, and other administrative work ran on z/OS.
--
Pete
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379760 is a reply to message #379738] |
Wed, 16 January 2019 21:50 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 16 Jan 2019 17:29:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
> On 2019-01-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> > Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>>>> > a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>>>> > Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>>>
>>>> Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
>>>> available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business needed
>>>> someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone uses oracle or
>>>> SAP ERP or salesforce CRM or outsources HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
>>>>
>>>> Most positions in those places would likely be along the lines of web-site
>>>> design or IT support, not hard-core programming.
>>>
>>> We're in Sprinfield, MA.
>>
>> Which was not listed in the aforementioned group of cities.
>
> That list was meant only as an example.
>
>>> We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a substantial server farm,
>>> and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin systems. And unlike
>>> a lot of industries where one can retire the admin system when new
>>> products come out, our products may have to be supported well into
>>> the 22nd Century.
>>
>> An outlier, to be sure.
>
> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
We're not that much of an outlier. We have competitors in Milwaukee,
Charlotte, Hartford, and other places.
The problem we have is finding people to replace our existing
programmers. Most of the people with the skills we need are near
retirement age--when there's an opening and a qualified applicant
we're happy to hire them (I was hired at 63) but realistically that's
not a viable long term strategy. I totalled it up the other day and
our team deals with 17 different programming languages (I'm counting
the ones that we haven't actually touched in decades but know that
there's code in the system that we have to be prepared to address, and
the ones that we are using in an experimental context to evaluate
future directions). Woops, that's 18--I forgot about R, which is part
of the actuarial curriculum now and we expect to be getting new models
handed down to us in that language in a few years..
Day to day we have two basic systems, one in APL on the PC and the
other in Fortran, COBOL, C, and Assembler on the mainframe--the APL
code is used for research and to generate the test cases for the
mainframe code (our situation doesn't allow static test cases--the
calculated results change every year, sometimes in ways that could not
have been predicted in advance). We're trying to move the APL to a
different language--the problem isn't with APL per se but that we have
a lot of trouble finding APL programmers and the ones we find seem to
want to be saviors, not replacements. Some of the APL has embedded
machine code--we haven't had to touch that particular code in decades
but we're going to have to figure out what it does in detail and
replicate it in another language when we get to that point.
In and around all that we are continually improving our
processes--processes in our area that were manual and took months ten
years ago run in hours now.
We do have a good sized team with lots of resources developing a Web
presence for us--we recognize that we need that--but so far it looks
like our existing systems are going to be back-ending that for a good
long time.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379794 is a reply to message #379760] |
Thu, 17 January 2019 09:58 |
scott
Messages: 4272
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
> On 16 Jan 2019 17:29:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2019-01-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>> We're in Sprinfield, MA.
>>>
>>> Which was not listed in the aforementioned group of cities.
>>
>> That list was meant only as an example.
>>
>>>> We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a substantial server farm,
>>>> and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin systems. And unlike
>>>> a lot of industries where one can retire the admin system when new
>>>> products come out, our products may have to be supported well into
>>>> the 22nd Century.
>>>
>>> An outlier, to be sure.
>>
>> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
>> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
>> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
>
> We're not that much of an outlier. We have competitors in Milwaukee,
Ah, let me guess: FiServ (a big customer of the Burroughs Medium systems
back in the day - I once had to patch the MCP in memory on a running system
at the FiServ site - very carefully to avoid fat-fingering the patch and
disrupting the entire ATM network).
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379813 is a reply to message #379664] |
Thu, 17 January 2019 16:29 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 2019-01-16, Huge wrote:
> On 2019-01-16, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2019-01-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 21:42:41 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> Would anyone know what life is like for a starting programmer in
>>>> >> a less glamorous location, like Cleveland, Shreveport, Fort Collins,
>>>> >> Fort Wayne, Bakersfield/Barstow, and Jacksonville?
>>>> >
>>>> > Fort Collins aside, are there any substantial programming jobs
>>>> > available at the others? It's not 1975 where every business
>>>> > needed someone to write the payroll app; pretty much everyone
>>>> > uses oracle or SAP ERP or salesforce CRM or outsources
>>>> > HR/Payroll to workday, trinet, etc.
....
>>>> We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a substantial server farm,
>>>> and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin systems. And unlike
>>>> a lot of industries where one can retire the admin system when new
>>>> products come out, our products may have to be supported well into
>>>> the 22nd Century.
>>>
>>> An outlier, to be sure.
>>
>> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
>> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
>> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
>
> Those jobs are all in Mumbai.
I don't know if the US (or large parts of the US) is much worse off
than Sweden, but IME there are a lot more real programming being done
than you'd think.
Here in Gothenburg, Ericsson and the Volvo-related car industry employ
a lot of embedded programmers, but there are plenty of others if you
(or more likely your pimp) knows where to look. Companies sell products
you've never heard of, and the products contain software.
A small town here (population <30,000 or so?) may not have a software
industry, but a university town will.
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379830 is a reply to message #379664] |
Fri, 18 January 2019 15:44 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2019-01-17, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>> On Wed, 2019-01-16, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2019-01-16, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> [snippage]
>
>>>> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
>>>> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
>>>> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
>>>
>>> Those jobs are all in Mumbai.
>>
>> I don't know if the US (or large parts of the US) is much worse off
>> than Sweden, but IME there are a lot more real programming being done
>> than you'd think.
>
> Until I retired in 2015, I worked for one of the world's largest
> banks. The number of UK based development staff we had was effectively
> zero. All coding was done in a "Low Cost Development Centre", mainly
> in Mumbai, although with 30% per annum wage inflation (and 30% per
> annum staff churn) we were also looking at China and Eastern Europe.
>
Maybe there’s an inverse ratio between company size and amount of
development being done in-house? I guess that would make sense.
--
Pete
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379850 is a reply to message #379794] |
Fri, 18 January 2019 19:59 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 17 Jan 2019 14:58:14 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>> On 16 Jan 2019 17:29:04 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2019-01-16, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>>> > We're in Sprinfield, MA.
>>>>
>>>> Which was not listed in the aforementioned group of cities.
>>>
>>> That list was meant only as an example.
>>>
>>>> > We have an IT department, 3 mainframes, a substantial server farm,
>>>> > and 40+ years of expensive-to-replace admin systems. And unlike
>>>> > a lot of industries where one can retire the admin system when new
>>>> > products come out, our products may have to be supported well into
>>>> > the 22nd Century.
>>>>
>>>> An outlier, to be sure.
>>>
>>> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
>>> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
>>> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
>>
>> We're not that much of an outlier. We have competitors in Milwaukee,
>
> Ah, let me guess: FiServ (a big customer of the Burroughs Medium systems
> back in the day - I once had to patch the MCP in memory on a running system
> at the FiServ site - very carefully to avoid fat-fingering the patch and
> disrupting the entire ATM network).
Northwest Mutual.
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #379876 is a reply to message #379664] |
Sat, 19 January 2019 13:16 |
Jorgen Grahn
Messages: 606
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 2019-01-18, Huge wrote:
> On 2019-01-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2019-01-17, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 2019-01-16, Huge wrote:
>>>> > On 2019-01-16, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> [snippage]
>>>
>>>> >> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
>>>> >> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
>>>> >> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
>>>> >
>>>> > Those jobs are all in Mumbai.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if the US (or large parts of the US) is much worse off
>>>> than Sweden, but IME there are a lot more real programming being done
>>>> than you'd think.
>>>
>>> Until I retired in 2015, I worked for one of the world's largest
>>> banks. The number of UK based development staff we had was effectively
>>> zero. All coding was done in a "Low Cost Development Centre", mainly
>>> in Mumbai, although with 30% per annum wage inflation (and 30% per
>>> annum staff churn) we were also looking at China and Eastern Europe.
>>
>> Maybe there’s an inverse ratio between company size and amount of
>> development being done in-house? I guess that would make sense.
>
> Indeed it does, and it's a very good point.
It probably depends on what the company does, too. If you sell a
product that's mostly software, there's nothing left if you outsource
all of the development. And the new ideas which you'll need
eventually will come from local developers.
So, perhaps the situation is better in businesses other than finance?
/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #380088 is a reply to message #379876] |
Sun, 20 January 2019 00:17 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 19 Jan 2019 18:16:07 GMT
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-01-18, Huge wrote:
>> On 2019-01-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2019-01-17, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>>>> > On Wed, 2019-01-16, Huge wrote:
>>>> >> On 2019-01-16, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [snippage]
>>>>
>>>> >>> Finding such outliers are what this thread is all about.
>>>> >>> We're looking for hope that someone can still find a programming
>>>> >>> job that isn't just coding up the next glitzy smartphone app.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Those jobs are all in Mumbai.
>>>> >
>>>> > I don't know if the US (or large parts of the US) is much worse off
>>>> > than Sweden, but IME there are a lot more real programming being done
>>>> > than you'd think.
>>>>
>>>> Until I retired in 2015, I worked for one of the world's largest
>>>> banks. The number of UK based development staff we had was effectively
>>>> zero. All coding was done in a "Low Cost Development Centre", mainly
>>>> in Mumbai, although with 30% per annum wage inflation (and 30% per
>>>> annum staff churn) we were also looking at China and Eastern Europe.
>>>
>>> Maybe there’s an inverse ratio between company size and amount of
>>> development being done in-house? I guess that would make sense.
>>
>> Indeed it does, and it's a very good point.
>
> It probably depends on what the company does, too. If you sell a
> product that's mostly software, there's nothing left if you outsource
> all of the development. And the new ideas which you'll need
> eventually will come from local developers.
>
> So, perhaps the situation is better in businesses other than finance?
>
> /Jorgen
>
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #380095 is a reply to message #379876] |
Sun, 20 January 2019 00:17 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 19 Jan 2019 18:16:07 GMT
Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
> On Fri, 2019-01-18, Huge wrote:
>> On 2019-01-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> Maybe there’s an inverse ratio between company size and amount of
>>> development being done in-house? I guess that would make sense.
>>
>> Indeed it does, and it's a very good point.
>
> It probably depends on what the company does, too. If you sell a
Most certainly it does.
> product that's mostly software, there's nothing left if you outsource
> all of the development. And the new ideas which you'll need
> eventually will come from local developers.
If the company is actually in the business of making specialised
computing equipment then it's all in house and there's lots of fun work to
be had.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #380098 is a reply to message #380095] |
Fri, 25 January 2019 13:46 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8402
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 19 Jan 2019 18:16:07 GMT
> Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2019-01-18, Huge wrote:
>>> On 2019-01-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Maybe there’s an inverse ratio between company size and amount of
>>>> development being done in-house? I guess that would make sense.
>>>
>>> Indeed it does, and it's a very good point.
>>
>> It probably depends on what the company does, too. If you sell a
>
> Most certainly it does.
>
>> product that's mostly software, there's nothing left if you outsource
>> all of the development. And the new ideas which you'll need
>> eventually will come from local developers.
>
> If the company is actually in the business of making specialised
> computing equipment then it's all in house and there's lots of fun work to
> be had.
>
I think many h/w companies outsource the drivers to darkest asia.
--
Pete
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #380103 is a reply to message #380098] |
Fri, 25 January 2019 14:15 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4946
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:46:11 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> If the company is actually in the business of making specialised
>> computing equipment then it's all in house and there's lots of fun work
>> to be had.
>>
>
> I think many h/w companies outsource the drivers to darkest asia.
I know one that doesn't, they're my CPOE. Some stuff does get done
in Asia because they have offices there.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: TV Show 'Good Trouble' (starting programmer) [message #380106 is a reply to message #380103] |
Fri, 25 January 2019 14:35 |
scott
Messages: 4272
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:46:11 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>>> If the company is actually in the business of making specialised
>>> computing equipment then it's all in house and there's lots of fun work
>>> to be had.
>>>
>>
>> I think many h/w companies outsource the drivers to darkest asia.
>
> I know one that doesn't, they're my CPOE. Some stuff does get done
> in Asia because they have offices there.
>
Same thing here, most of the drivers are done in the USA, but some are done
offshore (Eastern Europe, India, Israel) as we have offices in those
locations.
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