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Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371323 is a reply to message #371030] Fri, 27 July 2018 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Ramsey is currently offline  Jeff Ramsey
Messages: 35
Registered: May 2018
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Member
On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Brooks wrote:
> Announced at KFest.
>
> Livestream:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1R4hIl8l4&feature=yout u.be&t=1h58m0s
>
> Waiting list for $129 VidHD card is now open. Email vidhd@blueshiftinc.com
>
> -JB
> @JBrooksBSI

Hi John,

This looks amazing. Is there any video that can be watched of GS/OS?
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371324 is a reply to message #371323] Fri, 27 July 2018 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Ramsey is currently offline  Jeff Ramsey
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Registered: May 2018
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On Friday, July 27, 2018 at 7:55:03 AM UTC-7, Jeff Ramsey wrote:
> On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Brooks wrote:
>> Announced at KFest.
>>
>> Livestream:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1R4hIl8l4&feature=yout u.be&t=1h58m0s
>>
>> Waiting list for $129 VidHD card is now open. Email vidhd@blueshiftinc.com
>>
>> -JB
>> @JBrooksBSI
>
> Hi John,
>
> This looks amazing. Is there any video that can be watched of GS/OS?

NM - I found what I wanted to see in this video.

https://archive.org/details/KansasFest_2018_Introducing_VidH D

What an amazing product!
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371339 is a reply to message #371030] Fri, 27 July 2018 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Brooks wrote:
> Announced at KFest.
>
> Livestream:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1R4hIl8l4&feature=yout u.be&t=1h58m0s
>
> Waiting list for $129 VidHD card is now open. Email vidhd@blueshiftinc.com
>
> -JB
> @JBrooksBSI


BTW: I stumbled on one other undocumented Apple //e mode while making VidHD, which I forgot to include in the slides:

1KB 4-color 280x48 mode!

You enable double-lores, but then disable 80 column mode. IE, lores graphics mode with AN3 on.

It's cool because it's partial hires in only 1KB.

And yes, VidHD includes this crazy 280x48 mode and 4-color hires too.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371347 is a reply to message #371030] Fri, 27 July 2018 19:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Friday, July 20, 2018 at 6:06:47 PM UTC-7, John Brooks wrote:
> Announced at KFest.
>
> Livestream:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT1R4hIl8l4&feature=yout u.be&t=1h58m0s
>
> Waiting list for $129 VidHD card is now open. Email vidhd@blueshiftinc.com
>
> -JB
> @JBrooksBSI

VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res Arkanoid GS game demo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371355 is a reply to message #371339] Fri, 27 July 2018 22:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Brian Patrie

On 2018-07-27 16:45, John Brooks wrote:
> BTW: I stumbled on one other undocumented Apple //e mode while making VidHD, which I forgot to include in the slides:
>
> 1KB 4-color 280x48 mode!
>
> You enable double-lores, but then disable 80 column mode. IE, lores graphics mode with AN3 on.
>
> It's cool because it's partial hires in only 1KB.
>
> And yes, VidHD includes this crazy 280x48 mode and 4-color hires too.
>
> -JB
> @JBrooksBSI

Speaking of oddball video modes, one of the IIe RGB cards has a 16
colour 40-col text mode. The bytes in auxmem control background &
foreground, allowing setting of 80STORE & PAGE2, and colouring
characters with the lores commands. I don't remember the combination of
switches to activate it; maybe as simple as putting AN3 into DGR mode in
40-col text mode.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371368 is a reply to message #371263] Sat, 28 July 2018 07:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Thursday, 26 July 2018 17:18:00 UTC+12, John Brooks wrote:
> Anyone have a spec for Mode 3 (how and which pixels are affected by the high bit of a given byte)?

The best spec and sample images is what Jonas linked to:
http://boutillon.free.fr/Underground/Anim_Et_Graph/Extasie_C hat_Mauve_Reloaded/Extasie_Chat_Mauve_Reloaded.html

I just double-checked with Beagle Graphics and in 140-column (color) mode(s) it sets the high bit, and clears it in 560-column (mono) modes(s). That matches the scheme at the Chat Mauve link above.

> Also, anyone have a working RGB card and monitor?

I have the card somewhere (I should really pass it on to someone who will use it), but discarded the monitor years ago <kicks self again>.

Of course, I've thanked you by emailing a request for one of these awesome cards! : - )

Cheers,
Nick.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371374 is a reply to message #371030] Sat, 28 July 2018 09:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: jgandersen

Is there any chance that you would consider adding some debugging features? Here's my wish-list:

1. Brightness register, like SNES (used for visualizing timings) (better than border color, because it extends into the frame)
2. High Resolution 1 mhz timer (similar usage as above)
3. Mixed video mode (basically many video modes enabled at once) - it would be great to see the entire SHR screen, and have normal 80 column available at the same time on the GS, for debugging purposes. Or HGR/DHGR with a full 80 column text visible at the same time. (like your mirrored text)

The card looks amazing, and I'm looking forward to buying it!
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371376 is a reply to message #371347] Sat, 28 July 2018 09:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steven Hirsch is currently offline  Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
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On 07/27/2018 07:25 PM, John Brooks wrote:

> VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res Arkanoid GS game demo:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ

Thanks, John.

I'm surprised to see the vertical lines on the desktop. Doesn't your board do
aliasing? Or, am I misunderstanding the function of aliasing?
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371379 is a reply to message #371298] Sat, 28 July 2018 10:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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On Friday, 27 July 2018 11:21:07 UTC+12, r.sh...@me.com wrote:
> I would second that request, if possible. The mixed mode was also used in MouseCalc and BeagleGraphics.

Thanks for the tip about Beagle Graphics. I've confirmed it uses mode 3.

Then I went hunting around ... There are tidbits here and there. It seems the Checkmate MultiRam RGB card also supported mode 3. From comp.emulators.apple2 there was this list from Andrew Harvey. It seems there might have been conflicting implementations:

These use the high bit (some ON, some OFF)

Dragon Wars
Aliens
Kings Quest
Transylvania DHR
(Someone else suggested Test Drive)

These do not use the high bit

Air Heart
Bad Dudes
Batman
Death Sword
Heavy Barrel
King's Bounty
Maniac Mansion
Might & Magic II
Neuromancer
Temple of Apshai Trilogy
Thexder

Cheers,
Nick.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371390 is a reply to message #371376] Sat, 28 July 2018 14:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 6:35:13 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 07/27/2018 07:25 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>
>> VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res Arkanoid GS game demo:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ
>
> Thanks, John.
>
> I'm surprised to see the vertical lines on the desktop. Doesn't your board do
> aliasing? Or, am I misunderstanding the function of aliasing?

I'm not sure what you mean by "see the vertical lines", but there are a couple explanations:

1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.

2) If you are viewing the YouTube video using a display that is not a multiple of 1920 pixels wide, YouTube will rescale the movie. This will average pixel columns and give a blurry 'vertical column' effect. Try viewing the movie in fullscreen mode on your browser with a display that is 1920 or 3840 pixels wide.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371391 is a reply to message #371379] Sat, 28 July 2018 14:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 7:19:05 AM UTC-7, Nick Westgate wrote:
> On Friday, 27 July 2018 11:21:07 UTC+12, r.sh...@me.com wrote:
>> I would second that request, if possible. The mixed mode was also used in MouseCalc and BeagleGraphics.
>
> Thanks for the tip about Beagle Graphics. I've confirmed it uses mode 3.
>
> Then I went hunting around ... There are tidbits here and there. It seems the Checkmate MultiRam RGB card also supported mode 3. From comp.emulators..apple2 there was this list from Andrew Harvey. It seems there might have been conflicting implementations:
>
> These use the high bit (some ON, some OFF)
>
> Dragon Wars
> Aliens
> Kings Quest
> Transylvania DHR
> (Someone else suggested Test Drive)
>
> These do not use the high bit
>
> Air Heart
> Bad Dudes
> Batman
> Death Sword
> Heavy Barrel
> King's Bounty
> Maniac Mansion
> Might & Magic II
> Neuromancer
> Temple of Apshai Trilogy
> Thexder
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.

Nick, do you which (if any) of those apps activate DHGR mode 3 by toggling 80Col & AN3 switches?

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371392 is a reply to message #371390] Sat, 28 July 2018 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steven Hirsch is currently offline  Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On 07/28/2018 02:08 PM, John Brooks wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 6:35:13 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On 07/27/2018 07:25 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>>
>>> VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res
>>> Arkanoid GS game demo:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ
>>
>> Thanks, John.
>>
>> I'm surprised to see the vertical lines on the desktop. Doesn't your
>> board do aliasing? Or, am I misunderstanding the function of aliasing?
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "see the vertical lines", but there are a
> couple explanations:

Regardless of what scale I view it in (even full screen on my 3840 HDpi
display), the background appears as narrow alternating blue and black stripes.
This is what I see using any / all of the existing modern video solutions
for IIgs, including Nishida Radio's otherwise superb adapter.

Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
reproduce it.

> 1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical
> lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.
>
> 2) If you are viewing the YouTube video using a display that is not a
> multiple of 1920 pixels wide, YouTube will rescale the movie. This will
> average pixel columns and give a blurry 'vertical column' effect. Try
> viewing the movie in fullscreen mode on your browser with a display that is
> 1920 or 3840 pixels wide.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371393 is a reply to message #371390] Sat, 28 July 2018 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jeff Ramsey is currently offline  Jeff Ramsey
Messages: 35
Registered: May 2018
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Member
When I use my rgb-scart-hdmi adapter to display finder, I see a ‘noisy’ motion artifact on that blue striped background. I also see it sometimes on some other shades. I was told this was normal and the original monitor refresh rate was too slow to show it.

Your video demonstration does not show this noise artifact at all. Can you confirm this is not an issue?
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371394 is a reply to message #371393] Sat, 28 July 2018 15:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 11:33:34 AM UTC-7, Jeff Ramsey wrote:
> When I use my rgb-scart-hdmi adapter to display finder, I see a ‘noisy’ motion artifact on that blue striped background. I also see it sometimes on some other shades. I was told this was normal and the original monitor refresh rate was too slow to show it.
>
> Your video demonstration does not show this noise artifact at all. Can you confirm this is not an issue?

Right, the scart-to-hdmi adapters are reading the analog RGB pixel color coming from the GS at varying times. This results in some converter output pixels being white or blue as the GS intended, but many times the converter samples the GS color while the analog color is changing 'in between' GS pixels which results in a blur of blue & white.

Unfortunately, the pixel clock of the converter box is not synchronized to the GS video clock, so the converter box timing 'drifts' across GS pixels and frames, causing a bad 'noisy' motion artifact.

This is one of the crucial things that VidHD fixes by digitally regenerating the 1080p picture from the Apple II's mode registers plus frame buffer memory, and then sending out pixels via digital HDMI instead of analog VGA. An all-digital system avoids those noise/motion/clock-drift problems.


So short answer is 'yes', VidHD does not have the scart->HDMI noise/crawl artifacts.

One other problem with the scart->hdmi converter boxes is that they were designed for 1st-generation 1080p TVs which had 4:3 aspect-ratio screens that were compatible with broadcast NTSC TV. Nowadays 1080p displays are 16:9 aspect ratio, so the hdmi converter's 4:3 1080p output gets stretched wider, out to 16:9, which badly distorts the GS picture.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371395 is a reply to message #371392] Sat, 28 July 2018 15:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 07/28/2018 02:08 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 6:35:13 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>> On 07/27/2018 07:25 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>>>
>>>> VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res
>>>> Arkanoid GS game demo:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ
>>>
>>> Thanks, John.
>>>
>>> I'm surprised to see the vertical lines on the desktop. Doesn't your
>>> board do aliasing? Or, am I misunderstanding the function of aliasing?
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean by "see the vertical lines", but there are a
>> couple explanations:
>
> Regardless of what scale I view it in (even full screen on my 3840 HDpi
> display), the background appears as narrow alternating blue and black stripes.
> This is what I see using any / all of the existing modern video solutions
> for IIgs, including Nishida Radio's otherwise superb adapter.
>
> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
> happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
> reproduce it.
>
>> 1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical
>> lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.
>>
>> 2) If you are viewing the YouTube video using a display that is not a
>> multiple of 1920 pixels wide, YouTube will rescale the movie. This will
>> average pixel columns and give a blurry 'vertical column' effect. Try
>> viewing the movie in fullscreen mode on your browser with a display that is
>> 1920 or 3840 pixels wide.

Here is a screen-shot of the IIGS Finder desktop as generated by the GS Plus emulator:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sXagzNt7yjoCn5wNAVW1QsdK0BS kkBBO/view?usp=sharing

You can see that the desktop is made up of of vertical white and blue lines, which is also what VidHD generates on 1080p HDMI TV/Monitors.


> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
> happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
> reproduce it.

Nope. If you look closely at a IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor, you'll see the desktop is not a solid color, but is really a pattern of alternating white and blue vertical columns.

There are a few reasons why you may not have noticed this vertical pattern before:

1) The GS monitor is small: 12.8 inch diagonal, so it's difficult to see each 640-res column (you have to get quite close).

2) Old GS monitors tend to go blurry. The GS monitor <does> have a focus knob which can somewhat compensate for this age-related loss of focus, but the focus knob is not accessible from the outside.

You have to remove the back shell of the monitor to reach the focus knob(s) at the back of the CRT. I don't remember if there is a single focus knob, or if there are both H focus and V focus knobs.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371397 is a reply to message #371395] Sat, 28 July 2018 15:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Steven Hirsch is currently offline  Steven Hirsch
Messages: 798
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On 07/28/2018 03:27 PM, John Brooks wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:

>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen
>> that happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter
>> could reproduce it.
>>
>>> 1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical
>>> lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.

> Here is a screen-shot of the IIGS Finder desktop as generated by the GS
> Plus emulator:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sXagzNt7yjoCn5wNAVW1QsdK0BS kkBBO/view?usp=sharing
>
> You can see that the desktop is made up of of vertical white and blue
> lines, which is also what VidHD generates on 1080p HDMI TV/Monitors.

It must be a browser or display problem on my end, but I see alternating blue
and black lines on that screen shot.

>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen
>> that happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter
>> could reproduce it.
>
> Nope. If you look closely at a IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor, you'll see the
> desktop is not a solid color, but is really a pattern of alternating white
> and blue vertical columns.

Your explanation makes sense. My Apple color monitor is over 30 years old and
certainly not as sharp as a modern LCD display.

None of this gets in the way of my wanting one of your boards when available. :-)
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371399 is a reply to message #371397] Sat, 28 July 2018 15:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Schmenk is currently offline  David Schmenk
Messages: 374
Registered: December 2012
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Senior Member
On Saturday, 28 July 2018 12:38:50 UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
> On 07/28/2018 03:27 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>
>>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen
>>> that happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter
>>> could reproduce it.
>>>
>>>> 1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical
>>>> lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.
>
>> Here is a screen-shot of the IIGS Finder desktop as generated by the GS
>> Plus emulator:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sXagzNt7yjoCn5wNAVW1QsdK0BS kkBBO/view?usp=sharing
>>
>> You can see that the desktop is made up of of vertical white and blue
>> lines, which is also what VidHD generates on 1080p HDMI TV/Monitors.
>
> It must be a browser or display problem on my end, but I see alternating blue
> and black lines on that screen shot.
>
Snip

Uh-oh. This sounds a lot like "What color is the dress?". The default GS desktop is alternating blue and white, dithering to a light blue. Blue and black would look more like a dark blue.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371400 is a reply to message #371397] Sat, 28 July 2018 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Sunday, 29 July 2018 07:38:50 UTC+12, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> Here is a screen-shot of the IIGS Finder desktop as generated by the GS
>> Plus emulator:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sXagzNt7yjoCn5wNAVW1QsdK0BS kkBBO/view?usp=sharing
>>
>> You can see that the desktop is made up of of vertical white and blue
>> lines, which is also what VidHD generates on 1080p HDMI TV/Monitors.
>
> It must be a browser or display problem on my end, but I see alternating blue
> and black lines on that screen shot.

Here's a screen-shot of that screen-shot zoomed!
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CHLuLyas1XQqF4RG8RRCe_VTS9 bJFH5u

Cheers,
Nick.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371401 is a reply to message #371395] Sat, 28 July 2018 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
Messages: 453
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Saturday, 28 July 2018 21:27:38 UTC+2, John Brooks wrote:
>
> Nope. If you look closely at a IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor, you'll see the desktop is not a solid color, but is really a pattern of alternating white and blue vertical columns.
>
> There are a few reasons why you may not have noticed this vertical pattern before:
>
> 1) The GS monitor is small: 12.8 inch diagonal, so it's difficult to see each 640-res column (you have to get quite close).
>
> 2) Old GS monitors tend to go blurry. The GS monitor <does> have a focus knob which can somewhat compensate for this age-related loss of focus, but the focus knob is not accessible from the outside.
>
> You have to remove the back shell of the monitor to reach the focus knob(s) at the back of the CRT. I don't remember if there is a single focus knob, or if there are both H focus and V focus knobs.

The Sony BVM monitor I use does not show any lines but solid colors on the desktop as does any other analog monitor that supports 15khz that I own (including the 3 Apple RGB monitors). The BVM is from 2002 btw.

https://forum.classic-computing.org/index.php?attachment/142 01-a2gs-sony-png/

The same method was used by the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive to simulated transparency and more colors.

http://retro-sanctuary.com/comparisons%20-%20differing.html

-Jonas
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371402 is a reply to message #371401] Sat, 28 July 2018 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 1:36:07 PM UTC-7, STYNX wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 July 2018 21:27:38 UTC+2, John Brooks wrote:
>>
>> Nope. If you look closely at a IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor, you'll see the desktop is not a solid color, but is really a pattern of alternating white and blue vertical columns.
>>
>> There are a few reasons why you may not have noticed this vertical pattern before:
>>
>> 1) The GS monitor is small: 12.8 inch diagonal, so it's difficult to see each 640-res column (you have to get quite close).
>>
>> 2) Old GS monitors tend to go blurry. The GS monitor <does> have a focus knob which can somewhat compensate for this age-related loss of focus, but the focus knob is not accessible from the outside.
>>
>> You have to remove the back shell of the monitor to reach the focus knob(s) at the back of the CRT. I don't remember if there is a single focus knob, or if there are both H focus and V focus knobs.
>
> The Sony BVM monitor I use does not show any lines but solid colors on the desktop as does any other analog monitor that supports 15khz that I own (including the 3 Apple RGB monitors). The BVM is from 2002 btw.
>
> https://forum.classic-computing.org/index.php?attachment/142 01-a2gs-sony-png/
>
> The same method was used by the Sega Genesis/Mega Drive to simulated transparency and more colors.
>
> http://retro-sanctuary.com/comparisons%20-%20differing.html
>
> -Jonas

Here is a photo of the IIGS Applecolor RGB monitor showing the GSOS boot desktop:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R23nHzTPd5vA5juEj6HHrlIr420 fs3kp/view

You can see the alternating white (R+G+B on) and blue (B-only) pixels on each line, and the visible spacing between scan lines.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371407 is a reply to message #371368] Sat, 28 July 2018 18:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Robert Sheehan

On Saturday, 28 July 2018 23:53:04 UTC+12, Nick Westgate wrote:
> On Thursday, 26 July 2018 17:18:00 UTC+12, John Brooks wrote:
>> Anyone have a spec for Mode 3 (how and which pixels are affected by the high bit of a given byte)?
>
> The best spec and sample images is what Jonas linked to:
> http://boutillon.free.fr/Underground/Anim_Et_Graph/Extasie_C hat_Mauve_Reloaded/Extasie_Chat_Mauve_Reloaded.html
>
> I just double-checked with Beagle Graphics and in 140-column (color) mode(s) it sets the high bit, and clears it in 560-column (mono) modes(s). That matches the scheme at the Chat Mauve link above.
>
>> Also, anyone have a working RGB card and monitor?
>
> I have the card somewhere (I should really pass it on to someone who will use it), but discarded the monitor years ago <kicks self again>.
>
> Of course, I've thanked you by emailing a request for one of these awesome cards! : - )
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.

Another spec is Apple's one in chapter 6 of the Ext80 Column Apple Color Card manual. Available at Asimov - documentation/hardware/video/Ext80ColumnAppleColorCard.pdf.

There is also information in Tom Weishaar's Open-Apple newsletter July 1985, Vol. 1, No. 6 pg 54 http://apple2online.com/web_documents/Open%20Apple%2085-07%2 0KB.pdf.

Some further modes are mentioned by Bob Sander-Cederlof in his Apple Assembly Line newsletter.
http://www.txbobsc.com/aal/1986/aal8608.html#a6

You can see mode 3 being used in the advertisements featuring Steve Wozniak about the Mouse Series of software. He is running MouseCalc on a IIe e.g. pg 57 of inCider December 1985 ( http://apple2online.com/web_documents/inCider%2085-12%20KBS. pdf).

The Apple //c also has this mode when using a Video7 (and compatible) RGB adapter. This is the version I have used.

All the best
Robert
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371408 is a reply to message #371402] Sat, 28 July 2018 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
Messages: 453
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Saturday, 28 July 2018 23:16:56 UTC+2, John Brooks wrote:
> Here is a photo of the IIGS Applecolor RGB monitor showing the GSOS boot desktop:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R23nHzTPd5vA5juEj6HHrlIr420 fs3kp/view
>
> You can see the alternating white (R+G+B on) and blue (B-only) pixels on each line, and the visible spacing between scan lines.

It looks pretty solid color to me...

here is a close up of my IIgs RGB monitor
https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/41890505850/in/da teposted-public/

Notice how the border of the mouse changes when 2 vertical lines of white are adjacent to each other (the white are normally not seen due to dithering by the monitor). The background is a solid light blue (dithered by the monitor).

Here is a high-res image of the colors selector:
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/935/41890581480_ff29a96f14_o.j pg

The Sony BVM HR monitor does not show white and blue lines as well even though it has a horizontal resolution of >1020px. The most favored theory is that all analog monitors must filter the RGB signal before it is routed to the picture tube. This filtering cuts out high frequencies and reduces noise. But repeated vertical line patterns are mushed together as a result. I don't know if that is the case but I don't see the vertical lines of color dithering in 640 mode on analog monitors whatever the reason is.

The dithering in 640 mode is not blur or bad calibration.

-Jonas
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371409 is a reply to message #371391] Sat, 28 July 2018 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Sunday, 29 July 2018 06:10:08 UTC+12, John Brooks wrote:
> Nick, do you which (if any) of those apps activate DHGR mode 3 by toggling 80Col & AN3 switches?

I just did a quick test (BPM C05E in AppleWin) to see if they did multiple AN3 toggles, but I didn't check against the code in the card's manual to see which mode they were setting. (Also, I suppose it's worth noting that cracks might be false negatives if hacked.)

Beagle Graphics yes.
Dazzle Draw yes.
King's Quest (4am and san inc crack) yes.

Translyvania DHR yes/maybe.

Test Drive no.
Aliens no.

That should be enough to go on, but clearly we need to test as many as possible.

There was a claim in c.s.e2 that only the first high bit of a 4-byte block determined the color/mono decoding for that block.

Cheers
Nick.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371410 is a reply to message #371407] Sat, 28 July 2018 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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Hi Robert.

Good to know you're still lurking! ; - )

On Sunday, 29 July 2018 10:01:50 UTC+12, Robert Sheehan wrote:
> Another spec is Apple's one in chapter 6 of the Ext80 Column Apple Color Card manual. Available at Asimov - documentation/hardware/video/Ext80ColumnAppleColorCard.pdf.

The problem with that official ref is that while it details the mode init sequences, it doesn't specify the high bit function for mode 3.

> There is also information in Tom Weishaar's Open-Apple newsletter July 1985, Vol. 1, No. 6 pg 54 http://apple2online.com/web_documents/Open%20Apple%2085-07%2 0KB.pdf.

That one's more useful (and refers to an earlier article) because it defines the coloured text 40 mode. The implementation is quite limiting though because it clashes with 80 column mode, and I doubt it was ever used.

> The Apple //c also has this mode when using a Video7 (and compatible) RGB adapter. This is the version I have used.

Have you tried the colour text mode with the Video7?

Cheers,
Nick.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371411 is a reply to message #371408] Sat, 28 July 2018 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 3:20:07 PM UTC-7, STYNX wrote:
> On Saturday, 28 July 2018 23:16:56 UTC+2, John Brooks wrote:
>> Here is a photo of the IIGS Applecolor RGB monitor showing the GSOS boot desktop:
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1R23nHzTPd5vA5juEj6HHrlIr420 fs3kp/view
>>
>> You can see the alternating white (R+G+B on) and blue (B-only) pixels on each line, and the visible spacing between scan lines.
>
> It looks pretty solid color to me...
>
> here is a close up of my IIgs RGB monitor
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/41890505850/in/da teposted-public/
>
> Notice how the border of the mouse changes when 2 vertical lines of white are adjacent to each other (the white are normally not seen due to dithering by the monitor). The background is a solid light blue (dithered by the monitor).
>
> Here is a high-res image of the colors selector:
> https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/935/41890581480_ff29a96f14_o.j pg
>
> The Sony BVM HR monitor does not show white and blue lines as well even though it has a horizontal resolution of >1020px. The most favored theory is that all analog monitors must filter the RGB signal before it is routed to the picture tube. This filtering cuts out high frequencies and reduces noise. But repeated vertical line patterns are mushed together as a result. I don't know if that is the case but I don't see the vertical lines of color dithering in 640 mode on analog monitors whatever the reason is.
>
> The dithering in 640 mode is not blur or bad calibration.
>
> -Jonas

..

> The dithering in 640 mode is not blur or bad calibration.

Correct. The 640 mode dither is explicitly-generated by the VGC as alternating blue and white lines, as shown in the GS emulators and VidHD screen capture. If a particular monitor is blurring adjacent pixels into a solid color, then it's likely a monitor calibration or resolution problem (ie, 320-res 8MHz quality instead of 640-res 16MHz quality).


> It looks pretty solid color to me...

If you take a photo of GS/OS at bootup where you have a stretch of white and a stretch of alternating blue/white on the same line, it is easier to see the vertical lines of alternating white and blue.

You'll see that the green phosphor is always on during the white region, while it is off approximately every other triad for the blue/white dithered region.


> The Sony BVM HR monitor does not show white and blue lines as well even though it has a horizontal resolution of >1020px. The most favored theory is that all analog monitors must filter the RGB signal before it is routed to the picture tube. This filtering cuts out high frequencies and reduces noise. But repeated vertical line patterns are mushed together as a result. I don't know if that is the case but I don't see the vertical lines of color dithering in 640 mode on analog monitors whatever the reason is.

The IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor was designed specifically for the IIGS's 16MHz pixel timing and spacing, which is why Apple's RGB monitor has external adjustment knobs to control V size, V pos, and H pos, but not H size, which is fixed.

If you are using a non-Apple monitor, the H size will likely need to be adjusted to correctly match the monitor's pixel density to the GS pixel spacing (if possible).

These 'blur' problems are symptoms of analog RGB and CRT monitors. Improving display resolution and pixel timing allows the real IIGS pixel values to be seen clearly.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371412 is a reply to message #371395] Sat, 28 July 2018 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie is currently offline  Charlie
Messages: 255
Registered: November 2012
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Senior Member
On 7/28/2018 3:27 PM, John Brooks wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On 07/28/2018 02:08 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 6:35:13 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>>> On 07/27/2018 07:25 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res
>>>> > Arkanoid GS game demo:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, John.
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised to see the vertical lines on the desktop. Doesn't your
>>>> board do aliasing? Or, am I misunderstanding the function of aliasing?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "see the vertical lines", but there are a
>>> couple explanations:
>>
>> Regardless of what scale I view it in (even full screen on my 3840 HDpi
>> display), the background appears as narrow alternating blue and black stripes.
>> This is what I see using any / all of the existing modern video solutions
>> for IIgs, including Nishida Radio's otherwise superb adapter.
>>
>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
>> happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
>> reproduce it.
>>
>>> 1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical
>>> lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.
>>>
>>> 2) If you are viewing the YouTube video using a display that is not a
>>> multiple of 1920 pixels wide, YouTube will rescale the movie. This will
>>> average pixel columns and give a blurry 'vertical column' effect. Try
>>> viewing the movie in fullscreen mode on your browser with a display that is
>>> 1920 or 3840 pixels wide.
>
> Here is a screen-shot of the IIGS Finder desktop as generated by the GS Plus emulator:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sXagzNt7yjoCn5wNAVW1QsdK0BS kkBBO/view?usp=sharing
>
> You can see that the desktop is made up of of vertical white and blue lines, which is also what VidHD generates on 1080p HDMI TV/Monitors.
>
>
>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
>> happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
>> reproduce it.
>
> Nope. If you look closely at a IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor, you'll see the desktop is not a solid color, but is really a pattern of alternating white and blue vertical columns.
>
> There are a few reasons why you may not have noticed this vertical pattern before:
>
> 1) The GS monitor is small: 12.8 inch diagonal, so it's difficult to see each 640-res column (you have to get quite close).
>
> 2) Old GS monitors tend to go blurry. The GS monitor <does> have a focus knob which can somewhat compensate for this age-related loss of focus, but the focus knob is not accessible from the outside.
>
> You have to remove the back shell of the monitor to reach the focus knob(s) at the back of the CRT. I don't remember if there is a single focus knob, or if there are both H focus and V focus knobs.
>
> -JB
> @JBrooksBSI
>

For what it's worth, it isn't hard to make the SHR desktop background
(and all the colors) solid by averaging pairs of pixel colors. This
makes the screen slightly less sharp but in my opinion not enough to
complain about. See this link and scroll down to the part under the
heading, 'Solid Colors', for comparison pictures of video from the Carte
Blanche cards.

http://noboot.com/charlie/cbnotesgs4.htm

Charlie
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371415 is a reply to message #371395] Sat, 28 July 2018 21:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
John Brooks <jbrooks@blueshiftinc.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 11:24:39 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>> On 07/28/2018 02:08 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>>> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 6:35:13 AM UTC-7, Steven Hirsch wrote:
>>>> On 07/27/2018 07:25 PM, John Brooks wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > VidHD 1080p video showing Apple IIGS 640-res Finder and 320-res
>>>> > Arkanoid GS game demo:
>>>> >
>>>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqGB5ajfsEQ
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, John.
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised to see the vertical lines on the desktop. Doesn't your
>>>> board do aliasing? Or, am I misunderstanding the function of aliasing?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure what you mean by "see the vertical lines", but there are a
>>> couple explanations:
>>
>> Regardless of what scale I view it in (even full screen on my 3840 HDpi
>> display), the background appears as narrow alternating blue and black stripes.
>> This is what I see using any / all of the existing modern video solutions
>> for IIgs, including Nishida Radio's otherwise superb adapter.
>>
>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
>> happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
>> reproduce it.
>>
>>> 1) The Finder desktop is drawn as alternating blue and white vertical
>>> lines, 320x color pairs covering the 640 SHR columns.
>>>
>>> 2) If you are viewing the YouTube video using a display that is not a
>>> multiple of 1920 pixels wide, YouTube will rescale the movie. This will
>>> average pixel columns and give a blurry 'vertical column' effect. Try
>>> viewing the movie in fullscreen mode on your browser with a display that is
>>> 1920 or 3840 pixels wide.
>
> Here is a screen-shot of the IIGS Finder desktop as generated by the GS Plus emulator:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sXagzNt7yjoCn5wNAVW1QsdK0BS kkBBO/view?usp=sharing
>
> You can see that the desktop is made up of of vertical white and blue
> lines, which is also what VidHD generates on 1080p HDMI TV/Monitors.
>
>
>> Are you saying it should appear as a solid color? I've only ever seen that
>> happen on an RGB CRT display and was really hoping your adapter could
>> reproduce it.
>
> Nope. If you look closely at a IIGS AppleColor RGB monitor, you'll see
> the desktop is not a solid color, but is really a pattern of alternating
> white and blue vertical columns.
>
> There are a few reasons why you may not have noticed this vertical pattern before:
>
> 1) The GS monitor is small: 12.8 inch diagonal, so it's difficult to see
> each 640-res column (you have to get quite close).
>
> 2) Old GS monitors tend to go blurry. The GS monitor <does> have a focus
> knob which can somewhat compensate for this age-related loss of focus,
> but the focus knob is not accessible from the outside.
>
> You have to remove the back shell of the monitor to reach the focus
> knob(s) at the back of the CRT. I don't remember if there is a single
> focus knob, or if there are both H focus and V focus knobs.
>
> -JB
> @JBrooksBSI
>

A single focus adjustment.

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371416 is a reply to message #371410] Sat, 28 July 2018 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Robert Sheehan

On Sunday, 29 July 2018 10:53:08 UTC+12, Nick Westgate wrote:

> Have you tried the colour text mode with the Video7?

I believe it doesn't work (the 40 column foreground/background colour mode). I tried once with a demo disk. There is also no mention of it in the Video-7 enhancer //c manual. I would love to see this working on a IIe.

All the best
Robert
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371418 is a reply to message #371416] Sat, 28 July 2018 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Rob Justice is currently offline  Rob Justice
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Registered: January 2013
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Member
The manual for the Video-7 IIe card is available here, it describes the modes and how to set them in good detail.
http://apple2online.com/web_documents/Video-7%20Manual%20KB. pdf

The demo disk is also on this page:
http://apple2online.com/web_documents/Video7Demo.zip

These cards also have a 160x192 mode. Its a bit odd in that it ends up with uneven pixel width to fit the dot clock. I did take some pictures, but you cannot make this out in the pictures, its quite noticeable on the screen for slightly offset vertical lines drawn.

/Rob
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371419 is a reply to message #371411] Sat, 28 July 2018 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric Rucker is currently offline  Eric Rucker
Messages: 18
Registered: April 2013
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Junior Member
On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 7:21:24 PM UTC-4, John Brooks wrote:
> Correct. The 640 mode dither is explicitly-generated by the VGC as alternating blue and white lines, as shown in the GS emulators and VidHD screen capture. If a particular monitor is blurring adjacent pixels into a solid color, then it's likely a monitor calibration or resolution problem (ie, 320-res 8MHz quality instead of 640-res 16MHz quality).

However, I feel it's useful to note that the AppleColor RGB effectively has a soft low-pass filter on the input - per Apple's specification, it's flat within 1.5 dB up to 6.5 MHz, and less than 3 dB down at 8 MHz. Beyond that, nothing's guaranteed. So, that will blur the high frequency components of the 16 MHz signal - it won't entirely eliminate the vertical lines of the dither effect, but it will greatly reduce them, and make them almost a solid color.

That filtering is, IMO, an important part of the IIGS display.

(Of course, I could've sworn that the VidHD you had at KFest did a decent job of this, actually, not like the captures you've posted here. Maybe it was just the displays you connected it to, coincidentally blurring it?)
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371421 is a reply to message #371419] Sun, 29 July 2018 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 7:34:08 PM UTC-7, Eric Rucker wrote:
> On Saturday, July 28, 2018 at 7:21:24 PM UTC-4, John Brooks wrote:
>> Correct. The 640 mode dither is explicitly-generated by the VGC as alternating blue and white lines, as shown in the GS emulators and VidHD screen capture. If a particular monitor is blurring adjacent pixels into a solid color, then it's likely a monitor calibration or resolution problem (ie, 320-res 8MHz quality instead of 640-res 16MHz quality).
>
> However, I feel it's useful to note that the AppleColor RGB effectively has a soft low-pass filter on the input - per Apple's specification, it's flat within 1.5 dB up to 6.5 MHz, and less than 3 dB down at 8 MHz. Beyond that, nothing's guaranteed. So, that will blur the high frequency components of the 16 MHz signal - it won't entirely eliminate the vertical lines of the dither effect, but it will greatly reduce them, and make them almost a solid color.
>
> That filtering is, IMO, an important part of the IIGS display.
>
> (Of course, I could've sworn that the VidHD you had at KFest did a decent job of this, actually, not like the captures you've posted here. Maybe it was just the displays you connected it to, coincidentally blurring it?)

If the GS signal was band-limited around 8MHz, both 80 column text (14MHz) and 640-rez SHR text (16MHz) would be unreadable.

The only monitor emulation performed by VidHD is for NTSC-related YIQ artifacts in the 7MHz and 14MHz Gen1 & Gen2 modes.

HDMI TV's typically have several blurring/blending modes. Personally I disable TV blurring by selecting Game mode, which also reduces latency, but if the desktop's vertical lines bother you, try enabling a HDTV filtering mode or set the background to a constant color/picture to avoid the default horizontal dither.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371422 is a reply to message #371418] Sun, 29 July 2018 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sicklittlemonkey is currently offline  sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Sunday, 29 July 2018 14:23:47 UTC+12, Rob Justice wrote:
> The manual for the Video-7 IIe card is available here, it describes the modes and how to set them in good detail.
> http://apple2online.com/web_documents/Video-7%20Manual%20KB. pdf

Ah great, that's the source of all the detailed info. The Apple manual is useless.

> These cards also have a 160x192 mode.

Yeah, but I can't see any software using that or the coloured text modes.

Cheers,
Nick.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371423 is a reply to message #371421] Sun, 29 July 2018 07:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
Messages: 453
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Sunday, 29 July 2018 06:02:31 UTC+2, John Brooks wrote:
> If the GS signal was band-limited around 8MHz, both 80 column text (14MHz) and 640-rez SHR text (16MHz) would be unreadable.
>
> The only monitor emulation performed by VidHD is for NTSC-related YIQ artifacts in the 7MHz and 14MHz Gen1 & Gen2 modes.
>
> HDMI TV's typically have several blurring/blending modes. Personally I disable TV blurring by selecting Game mode, which also reduces latency, but if the desktop's vertical lines bother you, try enabling a HDTV filtering mode or set the background to a constant color/picture to avoid the default horizontal dither.

Here are some more photos of 2 other analog monitors.
Sony BVM HR 14" 15khz only RGB and
Panasonic 13" Multiscan with 50khz (RGBHV ... needs a sync splitter)

Sony 15khz RGB:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/42805628875/in/da teposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/43661825792/in/da teposted-public/

Panasonic 15khz RGB:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/41900404020/in/da teposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/41900406080/in/da teposted-public/
Panasonic SecondSight 31khz (VGA):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/88521483@N03/41900405210/in/da teposted-public/

The Panasonic has a high bandwidth on the RGB input (filter with higher cutoff) because it can display up to 50khz signals (>50mhz pixel clock). The Sony only accepts 15Khz signals on the RGB input. The Panasonic displays the color stripes and NOT solid colors (notice the patterns in the color-chart) but the Sony BVM was professionally calibrated in 2008 and does not display the the striped colors but solid colors. I used a professional Apple IIgs to BNC cable (no adapter) for the Sony and a diy sync splitter IIgs->VGA cable for the Panasonic.

This is exactly what I have seen on all other 15khz RGB monitors that I own.. The IIgs "striped" colors in 640x200 mode are solid colors on the picture tube. I hope this will convince you that the colors on the IIgs display are actually blended/disthered in hardware and that Apple intended this to be that way.

I have taken the 3 displays out of storage to make the photos :-) I normally use a TFT with 15khz capability for "everyday stuff" on the IIgs... its just more convenient than having bulky monitor boxes. I hope you can add a 'dithered/blended' option for the 640 mode.

-Jonas
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371424 is a reply to message #371423] Sun, 29 July 2018 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
Messages: 453
Registered: October 2012
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On Sunday, 29 July 2018 13:37:22 UTC+2, STYNX wrote:
> ...

I have just one last picture to share :-)
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/860/42806285645_f313e66dc3_o.p ng

Upper left: Apple IIgs RGB monitor
Lower left: Sony BVM
Lower right: Panasonic Multi Scan

-Jonas
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371427 is a reply to message #371421] Sun, 29 July 2018 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eric Rucker is currently offline  Eric Rucker
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On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 12:02:31 AM UTC-4, John Brooks wrote:
> If the GS signal was band-limited around 8MHz, both 80 column text (14MHz) and 640-rez SHR text (16MHz) would be unreadable.

Two comments about that.

The frequency response isn't hitting a wall at 8 MHz, but higher frequency components are attenuated per Apple's specification for the monitor - even 8 MHz is attenuated some. Higher contrast elements (transitions between white and black) will have the strongest signal and will get through the best, as well, and SHR text is usually exactly that, black text on a white background. (14 MHz 80 column text, on the other hand, by default will have reduced contrast on all three guns due to Medium Blue being $022F.)

And, Shaston 8 is never thinner than 2 pixels wide, so even though the hardware pixel rate is 16 MHz, text in Shaston 8 has a maximum frequency of 8 MHz. (That's not necessarily true for other fonts, though, and it's definitely not true for 14 MHz 80 column text.) If I had to guess, it's still got *SOME* response at 16 MHz, but not much.

I'd figure out a way to test this, but my AppleColor RGB has quite a bit less than 8 MHz of frequency response on a good day, now, so it's not a good candidate. STYNX has done a decent job of that, though, it seems.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371430 is a reply to message #371427] Sun, 29 July 2018 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
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Eric Rucker <bhtooefr@bhtooefr.org> wrote:
> On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 12:02:31 AM UTC-4, John Brooks wrote:
>> If the GS signal was band-limited around 8MHz, both 80 column text
>> (14MHz) and 640-rez SHR text (16MHz) would be unreadable.
>
> Two comments about that.
>
> The frequency response isn't hitting a wall at 8 MHz, but higher
> frequency components are attenuated per Apple's specification for the
> monitor - even 8 MHz is attenuated some. Higher contrast elements
> (transitions between white and black) will have the strongest signal and
> will get through the best, as well, and SHR text is usually exactly that,
> black text on a white background. (14 MHz 80 column text, on the other
> hand, by default will have reduced contrast on all three guns due to
> Medium Blue being $022F.)
>
> And, Shaston 8 is never thinner than 2 pixels wide, so even though the
> hardware pixel rate is 16 MHz, text in Shaston 8 has a maximum frequency
> of 8 MHz. (That's not necessarily true for other fonts, though, and it's
> definitely not true for 14 MHz 80 column text.) If I had to guess, it's
> still got *SOME* response at 16 MHz, but not much.
>
> I'd figure out a way to test this, but my AppleColor RGB has quite a bit
> less than 8 MHz of frequency response on a good day, now, so it's not a
> good candidate. STYNX has done a decent job of that, though, it seems.
>

A simple check for whether bandwidth limiting is affecting text display
negatively is examining the relative brightness of vertical font elements
versus horizontal elements.

They should be identical for best appearance, but significant bandwidth
limitation will cause the verticals (especially single-pixel verticals) to
be attenuated relative to horizontals.

--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371444 is a reply to message #371430] Mon, 30 July 2018 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Brooks

On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 9:51:06 AM UTC-7, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Eric Rucker wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 29, 2018 at 12:02:31 AM UTC-4, John Brooks wrote:
>>> If the GS signal was band-limited around 8MHz, both 80 column text
>>> (14MHz) and 640-rez SHR text (16MHz) would be unreadable.
>>
>> Two comments about that.
>>
>> The frequency response isn't hitting a wall at 8 MHz, but higher
>> frequency components are attenuated per Apple's specification for the
>> monitor - even 8 MHz is attenuated some. Higher contrast elements
>> (transitions between white and black) will have the strongest signal and
>> will get through the best, as well, and SHR text is usually exactly that,
>> black text on a white background. (14 MHz 80 column text, on the other
>> hand, by default will have reduced contrast on all three guns due to
>> Medium Blue being $022F.)
>>
>> And, Shaston 8 is never thinner than 2 pixels wide, so even though the
>> hardware pixel rate is 16 MHz, text in Shaston 8 has a maximum frequency
>> of 8 MHz. (That's not necessarily true for other fonts, though, and it's
>> definitely not true for 14 MHz 80 column text.) If I had to guess, it's
>> still got *SOME* response at 16 MHz, but not much.
>>
>> I'd figure out a way to test this, but my AppleColor RGB has quite a bit
>> less than 8 MHz of frequency response on a good day, now, so it's not a
>> good candidate. STYNX has done a decent job of that, though, it seems.
>>
>
> A simple check for whether bandwidth limiting is affecting text display
> negatively is examining the relative brightness of vertical font elements
> versus horizontal elements.
>
> They should be identical for best appearance, but significant bandwidth
> limitation will cause the verticals (especially single-pixel verticals) to
> be attenuated relative to horizontals.
>
> --
> -michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com

The request to display alternating blue/white 640-res (16MHz) pixels as a "solid color" (8MHz) would require filtering Gen2 (14 MHz) and Gen3 (16Mhz) modes to half-res and cause 80-column text, 560-res double-hires, and 640-res SHR to become unrecognizable.

I agree that a -3db signal reduction between adjacent pixels is a noticeable filter (50% energy), but IMO the AppleColor RGB is not blocking >8MHz, and alternating 640-res blue/white pixels are not being displayed as a solid color.

$0.02

-JB
@JBrooksBSI
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371445 is a reply to message #371444] Mon, 30 July 2018 13:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aaron Pulver is currently offline  Aaron Pulver
Messages: 10
Registered: March 2013
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Junior Member
I always thought the blended dithering effect on the Apple RGB monitor was more a result of its relatively coarse dot pitch than anything else. For several years, I used a Magnavox RGB monitor with a slightly finer dot pitch on my GS and the alternating pixel colors were visible. In any case, my vote would be for the image to be as clear and sharp as possible for GS modes rather than trying to duplicate the dithering look by blurring/filtering. If it can be an option to toggle, that's even better.
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371496 is a reply to message #371444] Wed, 01 August 2018 13:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
Messages: 453
Registered: October 2012
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On Monday, 30 July 2018 18:59:17 UTC+2, John Brooks wrote:
> The request to display alternating blue/white 640-res (16MHz) pixels as a "solid color" (8MHz) would require filtering Gen2 (14 MHz) and Gen3 (16Mhz) modes to half-res and cause 80-column text, 560-res double-hires, and 640-res SHR to become unrecognizable.
>
> I agree that a -3db signal reduction between adjacent pixels is a noticeable filter (50% energy), but IMO the AppleColor RGB is not blocking >8MHz, and alternating 640-res blue/white pixels are not being displayed as a solid color.

Well designed HF-Filters for noise reduction react mainly to repeated (uniform) patterns like I-I-I-I-I-I
A single pulse like ----I---- is not as much affected by the filter. The analog filter circuitry is designed to reduce HF noise. The coils, capacitors and resistors in the system are dampening the signals as well. Higher frequencies are more affected than lower ones.

Video bandwidth
• Flat within 1.5 decibels to 6.5 megahertz
• Less than 3 decibels down at 8 megahertz
(From Apple Color Monitor RGB brochure)

https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20P roject/Peripherals/Monitors/AppleColor%20RGB%20Monitor/Docum entation/

The frequency response is already reduced by 3dB at 8Mhz... I would expect a lot more dampening at 16Mhz. The missing numbers on higher frequencies indicate that apple only intended 8mhz video signals to be very sharp and was not that concerned with blending effects at 16mhz. (most likely because of the 0.37mm dot with)

Im not good with analog filter calculation. Therefor I could not make much sense of the very convoluted usage of diodes, inductors and resistors in the RGB monitor schematic. But of what I have seen, I suspect a steep drop in response at greater 10Mhz. But I'm not good at analog filter calculation, as I have mentioned :-)

Here made a comparison:
80col text White on Blue (part of the M character -> 5pixel "WbWbW" pattern) against the 2gs standard blue white desktop ("WbEbEb") pattern ... try to find the pasted part :-)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1795/43786561141_0d081f4b42_o. png

Here are the other images with the highlighted parts:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1798/43786561621_aa9348f324_o. png
https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/928/43786562021_6d981a2d16_o.p ng

i will try to find a frequency response chart for the Sony BVM.

-Jonas
Re: VidHD: New 1080p HDMI video card for the AppleII [message #371497 is a reply to message #371496] Wed, 01 August 2018 14:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
STYNX is currently offline  STYNX
Messages: 453
Registered: October 2012
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Senior Member
On Wednesday, 1 August 2018 19:42:46 UTC+2, STYNX wrote:
> i will try to find a frequency response chart for the Sony BVM.

The only thing I found was, that my Sony BVM has a smaller than 3dB dampening at 10Mhz for RGB.

I have thought about the frequency again and if the pixel-clock is 16mhz, the highest frequency would be 8mhz (1->0 full 'wave'). So filter response may not completely explain the blending of colors since the 8Mhz is completely in the specification (only 3dB dampening).

The RGB drivers are coupled in the schematic through an inductor in series with a resistor. Maybe there is something here? Or the electron guns themselves are acting as an inductor or a coil? I'm no analog wizard and cannot contemplate what actually happens there...

-Jonas
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