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Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364095 is a reply to message #364012] Fri, 23 February 2018 02:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: AndyW

On 22/02/2018 09:51, Bob Eager wrote:
> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because they
> secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!

possibly true but not in my case, my dream is right-first-time code so I
aim for it but the reality is lots of debugging so I make that bit easy.

> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
> label and GOTO somewhere completely different...

I do occasional dip into assembler, one of my computers in the 80s had
an in-line 6502 assembler in basic. blisteringly fast when you are used
to basic on a 1MHz machine.
Never used BCPL.
I do a lot of raspberry pi stuff so I use python a lot.

Andy
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364096 is a reply to message #364095] Fri, 23 February 2018 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mausg is currently offline  mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
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Senior Member
On 2018-02-23, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
> On 22/02/2018 09:51, Bob Eager wrote:
>> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because they
>> secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>
> possibly true but not in my case, my dream is right-first-time code so I
> aim for it but the reality is lots of debugging so I make that bit easy.
>
>> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
>> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in a
>> label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>
> I do occasional dip into assembler, one of my computers in the 80s had
> an in-line 6502 assembler in basic. blisteringly fast when you are used
> to basic on a 1MHz machine.
> Never used BCPL.
> I do a lot of raspberry pi stuff so I use python a lot.
>
> Andy

From memory, the original DOS for the Amiga was not being completed,
so they got some guy from Cambridge U to write one in the time
allowed, and he did it in BCPL, AFAIK after, it took years to work
out some of the bugs. I forget his name, but remember him being
described as 'brilliant'.


--
greymaus.ireland.ie
Just_Another_Grumpy_Old_Man
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364101 is a reply to message #364095] Fri, 23 February 2018 03:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 07:45:27 +0000, AndyW wrote:

> On 22/02/2018 09:51, Bob Eager wrote:
>> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because
>> they secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>
> possibly true but not in my case, my dream is right-first-time code so I
> aim for it but the reality is lots of debugging so I make that bit easy.
>
>> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
>> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in
>> a label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>
> I do occasional dip into assembler, one of my computers in the 80s had
> an in-line 6502 assembler in basic. blisteringly fast when you are used
> to basic on a 1MHz machine.
> Never used BCPL.
> I do a lot of raspberry pi stuff so I use python a lot.

There's BCPL for the Pi! Interpreted, so not so fast (but still fast).
And safer.


--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364102 is a reply to message #364073] Fri, 23 February 2018 03:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 01:02:36 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2018-02-22, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>
>> Debugging can be similar to this. You can work for hours to track down
>> a bug... only to find out that you did something very stupid to cause
>> the problem!!! Most bugs I tracked down... ended up being bone-headed
>> mistakes instead of important conceptual errors in implementing an
>> algorithm.
>
> And, of course, after slaving over it for hours, a cow orker walking by
> will spot it instantly.

The thing to do is go and do something else, and come back to it. Even
five minutes can be enough.

But, better still, get drunk. When I was a graduate student in the 1970s,
one of my programs would occasionally cause a temporary halt in our
timesharing system. Eventually the system manager gave me a dump of the
entire timesharing system from the latest occurrence, and said 'fix it'.
It was a listing about a foot thick. I left it in the corner of my room
for several days. On Saturday night I went out and was definitely far
from sober when I returned. I evidently decided it was time to look at
the dump, although I don'e remember anything. The next morning I woke up
to find the dump had, scribbled on the top sheet: "Uninitialised variable
in fourth word of VFILE parameter block". And so it was.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364103 is a reply to message #364096] Fri, 23 February 2018 03:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 08:12:03 +0000, mausg wrote:

> On 2018-02-23, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2018 09:51, Bob Eager wrote:
>>> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because
>>> they secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>>
>> possibly true but not in my case, my dream is right-first-time code so
>> I aim for it but the reality is lots of debugging so I make that bit
>> easy.
>>
>>> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
>>> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code
>>> in a label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>>
>> I do occasional dip into assembler, one of my computers in the 80s had
>> an in-line 6502 assembler in basic. blisteringly fast when you are used
>> to basic on a 1MHz machine.
>> Never used BCPL.
>> I do a lot of raspberry pi stuff so I use python a lot.
>>
>> Andy
>
> From memory, the original DOS for the Amiga was not being completed,
> so they got some guy from Cambridge U to write one in the time allowed,
> and he did it in BCPL, AFAIK after, it took years to work out some of
> the bugs. I forget his name, but remember him being described as
> 'brilliant'.

It was actually a group of students. It was called TRIPOS, and it was
their final year (Tripos) project (although it is claimed that the name
is an acronym for TRIvial Portable Operating System). I used it quite a
bit on the PDP-11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRIPOS

Tim King ported it to the 68000, and you may be thinking of him.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364104 is a reply to message #364090] Fri, 23 February 2018 05:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 06:21:26 GMT, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
>>> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
>>> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on
the
>>> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>>>
>>
>> Always was like that. A local community college had great success with
a
>> program that included COBOL, JCL, and CICS. Graduates usually had jobs
>> waiting when they got out.
>
> In 1964, when my school had one computer (IBM 1620) they offered a
> course in "computer programming" for which I signed up. It was taught
> by a guy seconded from industry. He specified a textbook on numerical
> methods and proposed to teach us that. Half the class announced that
> they would drop the course if he didn't teach us how write programs.
>
> Despite his protest that you can't write programs unless you know the
> math, he saw the light and gave us an intro to Fortran. We each wrote
> one small program related to our disparate majors -- key punch, cards,
> submit to operator, line printer and all that.
>
> Didn't touch a computer again until 1980 when I borrowed an Apple ][
> and learned Basic. Then not again for seven years, when I got an
> Osborne I, learned C, z80 assembler. Now I'm the digital equivalent
> of a chronic alcoholic. Might never have happened if I'd dropped that
> course in '64.
>

I'm still coding in 8086 asm! (alright, I need a 286 for popa) see clax
if interested. If not then erm don't.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364106 is a reply to message #364050] Fri, 23 February 2018 05:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Kerr-Mudd,John

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:29:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-02-22, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
>> Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2/21/2018 3:08 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Phila Inqr reported that compsci is a hot major.
>>>> [snip]
>>>
>>> I hope this reflects a true interest in computers and programming...
>>> but I fear a generation of half-baked programmers who are *only* in
>>> this for the money.
>>
>> I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
>> that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
>> had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
>> found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
>> STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
>> money lay.
>>
>> Oh, well. Newton ended up at the Mint but at least he did a little
>> serious work first. :-)
>
> I've worked on code written by one of those people who viewed
> programming as a stepping stone to management. Hell hath no
> fury like that of one of those managers who sees what you've
> done to his precious ancient spaghetti.
>

I heard /read somewhere that Gates did an awful job of the BasicA "fill"
command, but later no-one dared remove the code.

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364107 is a reply to message #363981] Fri, 23 February 2018 07:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
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Senior Member
On 23 Feb 2018 09:59:46 GMT
Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> Or they're good programmers and the Peter Principle means they get
> promoted into management jobs they hate and are no good at. [FX: waves]

Which is one reason I make sure to mention that I don't do
management at job interviews.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364112 is a reply to message #364107] Fri, 23 February 2018 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 23 Feb 2018 09:59:46 GMT
> Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Or they're good programmers and the Peter Principle means they get
>> promoted into management jobs they hate and are no good at. [FX: waves]
>
> Which is one reason I make sure to mention that I don't do
> management at job interviews.
>

You're the type of guy I'd hire. No worries about you sashaying off. I
would want one guy who could, and would want to, move into my job, but
after that, give me a bunch of people who are happy to be programmers.

--
Pete
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364116 is a reply to message #364052] Fri, 23 February 2018 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
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Registered: March 2012
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Senior Member
Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-22, AndyW <Andy@nojunqmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
>>> cutting up a human body IMO.  Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
>>> not been in that rare company myself.
>>
>> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing the
>> coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung and
testing.
>
> And when it came time for maintenance you got even farther ahead, I'll bet.
>
> I find designing more satisfying than coding, but the two work hand in hand.
> Debugging is one of those things you just have to do to make things work.
> It's sort of like cleaning the kitchen after cooking a meal - you have to
> do it sooner or later or you wind up with a real mess.
>
If you work in a computer manufacturing shop, you never know what
kind of mess you are going to have in that new pile of hardware
nobody's ever made work. Brand new "science" experiments with
the goal of getting something to reproduce the same results no matter
what kinds of nasties are hidden in the nooks and crannies of
wiring.

/BAH
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364117 is a reply to message #364039] Fri, 23 February 2018 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
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Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>> JMF wanted his business cards to say, "Have EDDT, Will Travel". I put
>> it one his gravestone. If TW, JMF and I had decided to quit DEC the
>> first time TOPS-10 was cancelled, the "Have EDDT.." would have been
>> our motto.
>
> year after I had 2hr intro to programming, univ. hired me fulltime to be
> responsible for ibm mainframe production systems (academic as well as
> administration). I hated bugs, getting calls to fix something
> ... sometimes in the middle of the night ... other times when i was
> concentrating on some extremely complex progamming ... with regarding to
> interrupting concentration ... from "Real Programmers Don't Eat Quiche"
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2001e.html#31 High Level Language Systems was
Re: computer books/authors (Re: FA:

I would go into work at 04:00 so I could get at least 4 hours of no
stupid interruptions. Part of my job was to deal with interruptions
so that the other developers didnt' get bothered with the small stuff.
the people who didn't want to "bother" JMf or TW wree the ones
who had real problems and needed to bother them. I'd set up a
meeting in JMF's or TW's office and escort the guy there. I'd
introduce them and stay until I figured that the guy needing
help didn't need mine anymore.


>
> Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any Real Programmers are
> around at 9 AM, it's because they were up all night.

Not in our shop. Those programmers leave before the machines have
to be booted up for timesharing (and they could avoid management). :-)

>
> ... aka offshift work frequently minimizes interrupts. My adversing to
> bugs got worse when bugs became utilized for exploits ... led to last
> product at IBM was HA/CMP ... no single point of failure ... and "fail
> safe" ... past posts

And then there are those "asspects" which aren't really bugs but
shouldn't be there anyway. (The spelling was intentional.)

> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subtopic.html#hacmp
> some related posts in C language related bugs&exploits
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/subintegrity.html#buffer
> and "availability" related posts
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submain.html#available
>
> as aside, I thot something other than contact on business cards had no
> point, tried hard to have it left blank ... then was told that there was
> corporate standard that something had to be there ... then would just
> have "staff member" ... as innoxious and meaningless as possible.
>
> the other was we were first to have corporate internet email address
> ... and then csnet (arpanet/internet) email address. Then corporate
> said that business cards were only for customer contact information and
> email addresses had to be removed. We pointed out that met then that it
> also applied to internal "tieline" phone number ... which would also
> have to be removed ... and csnet email could remain. old email
> about being first with csnet gateway (also arpanet, 1982, slightly
> before internetworking change over)
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/internet.htm#email821022
> and
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/98.html#email821022

We had to have business cards, too. It was a sign of being a
"grown-up". I just put mine in my desk and forgot about them.
When Palmer became CEO, he tried to destroy anything that had
to do with KO, no matter what the cost. One of the stupidest
things Palmer edicted was that the color of the business cards
had to change from the DEC blue to burgandy. Every salaried
person was forced to order 1000 new business cards.

>
> more topic drift ... internetworking TCP/IP transition, from csnet
> liaison
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#email821230
> and
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2000e.html#email830202
>
> I did go through a period putting random zippy at end of email
> ... also added selection from 6670 file ... recent reference
> http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2018.html#103 1956 -- circuit reliability book
>
> and now just stay with the following static.

I never used mine. I assumed nobody was interested.

/BAH

>
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364119 is a reply to message #364071] Fri, 23 February 2018 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
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Senior Member
Bob Eager wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:29:18 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-22, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting
>>>> > as cutting up a human body IMO.  Some few actually enjoy debugging...
>>>> > I've not been in that rare company myself.
>>>>
>>>> I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>>>> used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>>>> clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing
>>>> the coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung
>>>> and testing.
>>>
>>> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because
>>> they secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>>>
>>> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
>>> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code in
>>> a label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>>
>> ALTER ENTER-GOLDILOCKS TO PROCEED TO HASTY-RETREAT.
>>
>> See, you can even do it in COBOL. Who needs assembly language to do
>> instruction modification?
>
> I'll raise you a table of octal values, then GOTO to the start of the
> table for some embedded code!
>
I liked indirection and indexing.

/BAH
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364132 is a reply to message #364069] Fri, 23 February 2018 12:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gene Wirchenko is currently offline  Gene Wirchenko
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Senior Member
On 22 Feb 2018 22:54:45 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

[snip]

> On the other hand, I feel uneasy when I'm just writing code and noone
> is going to run it for real until a year later. The code isn't
> complete until it's in production.

Interestingly, I have just such a situation this morning. The
code isnot working. My system and the Production systems are just
different enough in this area that there may be some gymnastics
required.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364140 is a reply to message #364117] Fri, 23 February 2018 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-23, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:

> We had to have business cards, too. It was a sign of being a
> "grown-up". I just put mine in my desk and forgot about them.

In two jobs in a row, six months after I was issued business cards
I was gone. I haven't needed cards since, and I'm now stable.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364141 is a reply to message #363981] Fri, 23 February 2018 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-23, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-02-22, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-02-22, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The problem with going from IT to management in most places seems to be
>>> that you're labeled a computer geek and have to work vey hard to erase
>>> the label. Businesses seem like to like me to like to promote people with
>>> non-technical backgrounds, and of course MBAs for upper management. It's
>>> almost like the way to get promoted from a computer job is to be a terrible
>>> programmer.
>>
>> The process is probably driven from both ends; the terrible programmers
>> have properties that make them attractive to management, and the programming
>> department can't wait to promote them out of harm's way.
>
> Or they're good programmers and the Peter Principle means they get promoted
> into management jobs they hate and are no good at. [FX: waves]
>
>> A lot of prominent managers started out as terrible programmers
>> <cough>Gates<cough>.
>
> *Was* he a "terrible programmer"?

Perhaps that's an overstatement; I said "terrible" to match the original
posting (see above). Otherwise, I would say "mediocre".

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364146 is a reply to message #364140] Fri, 23 February 2018 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-02-23, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> We had to have business cards, too. It was a sign of being a
>> "grown-up". I just put mine in my desk and forgot about them.
>
> In two jobs in a row, six months after I was issued business cards
> I was gone. I haven't needed cards since, and I'm now stable.
>

I never found much use for them, except to drop in the fishbowls for
drawings at trade shows. Now I think most of it is electronic. With
"near-field communication" (or whatever it's called) you just hold your
phone next to the other guy's phone to exchange e business cards.

--
Pete
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364147 is a reply to message #364140] Fri, 23 February 2018 14:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On 23 Feb 2018 18:55:07 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:

> On 2018-02-23, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> We had to have business cards, too. It was a sign of being a
>> "grown-up". I just put mine in my desk and forgot about them.
>
> In two jobs in a row, six months after I was issued business cards
> I was gone. I haven't needed cards since, and I'm now stable.

One job I worked, the department got an email asking who needed
business cards and notepads with the company logo on them ?

All of us keeping the computer running, which tracked lots of things
the company needed to keep cash flow running, replied.

There was a hissy fit from management. We were told we weren't
important enough to get either business cards or notepads with company
logo on them.

We responded with something like 'So, even though we do things so you
and everyone in this company gets paid, we aren't important. Got it.'.

One manager said we could be fired and replaced. One of the day shift
guys pointed out fast food places pay better, with better hours.

Our boss pointed out we two night shift guys had been hard to find as
no one wanted to work 12 hours at night.

We didn't get business cards, but we did get the notepads.
'From the Desk of: my name'.

Same company, the woman who made sure accounts payable/receivable got
done on time was told she didn't need an office with a door. The CFO
intervened and tried to get her one. The Owner said no. She eventually
quit, and went with a competitor who paid her much more than she was
getting paid there, and got an office with a lockable door.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364150 is a reply to message #363997] Fri, 23 February 2018 15:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 7:11:01 PM UTC-5, Mike Spencer wrote:

> I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
> that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
> had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
> found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
> STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
> money lay.

Many companies realized that tech people needed a growth track
that was not management, such as job titles of "super tech".
How far that was implemented I cannot say.

It certainly seemed that the typical promotion path for top-
notch programmers was into management. Unfortunately, the
skillset for managers is different, sometimes very different
than for programmers.

FWIW, I knew several great programmers who became horrible managers.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364151 is a reply to message #364005] Fri, 23 February 2018 15:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 2:54:36 AM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:

>> I rememebr it being said that medicine is very popular (in schools)
>> until the first corpse has to be dissected, and it may be the same
>> for computers, when the first debugging has to be done.

> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and off-putting as
> cutting up a human body IMO. Some few actually enjoy debugging... I've
> not been in that rare company myself.

In my own observation, most programmers enjoy debugging, they
like the challenge of it, like the digging.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364152 is a reply to message #364042] Fri, 23 February 2018 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 2:19:09 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> The problem with going from IT to management in most places seems to be
> that you're labeled a computer geek and have to work vey hard to erase the
> label. Businesses seem like to like me to like to promote people with
> non-technical backgrounds, and of course MBAs for upper management. It's
> almost like the way to get promoted from a computer job is to be a terrible
> programmer.

I've never heard of a lousy programmer being promoted. Usually,
the bad ones are fired or at best, shunted aside where they could
do the least damage.

One colleague was just promoted to manager. She was qualified
for that because:
1) She is technically very skilled and very smart. Knows her
applications thoroughly. Fast at solving problems.
2) She works hard and efficiently. Comes in early and stays late.

HOWEVER, she is one of the techie-types I personally would not
have promoted--this is because she is difficult to get along
with. She has very little patience, and gets angry easily.
She loses her temper and will scream at people who screw up.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364153 is a reply to message #364051] Fri, 23 February 2018 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 2:29:57 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> ALTER ENTER-GOLDILOCKS TO PROCEED TO HASTY-RETREAT.
>
> See, you can even do it in COBOL. Who needs assembly language to do
> instruction modification?

Most sites I know of banned the cobol ALTER long ago. Is that
still the case?
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364154 is a reply to message #364073] Fri, 23 February 2018 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 8:03:12 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> And, of course, after slaving over it for hours, a co worker walking by
> will spot it instantly.

Oh yes, so true! Been there, done that on both sides many times
(helped someone passing by their desk, and was helped by someone
passing by me.)

Amazing how much a fresh pair of eyes can see.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364162 is a reply to message #364083] Fri, 23 February 2018 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 11:10:15 PM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:
> On 2/22/2018 7:02 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2018-02-22, Charles Richmond <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Debugging can be similar to this. You can work for hours to track down
>>> a bug... only to find out that you did something very stupid to cause
>>> the problem!!! Most bugs I tracked down... ended up being bone-headed
>>> mistakes instead of important conceptual errors in implementing an
>>> algorithm.
>>
>> And, of course, after slaving over it for hours, a cow orker walking by
>> will spot it instantly.
>>
>
> Sometimes that's true... That's why code reviews can be so useful: you
> have to explain your code to cow-orkers and you get to look harder at
> the code when you explain.

Yes, code reviews are very helpful per the above, and other reasons, too.

But how often are they practiced? My own experience has been no
manager or analyst ever cared to see work, even when asked to do so.

I knew of one site that did do code reviews, but it was to check
for compliance with the site's numerous coding standards. These
were things like requiring data fields appear alphabetically, and
using COBOL 01 levels instead of 77s. Stuff like that, that really
didn't make a difference in performance or readability. They
seemed to spend an awful lot of time on compliance, but I don't
think their work was, in the end, any better than other sites.
I sure as heck wouldn't want to work there.

I had to deal with them on some issues, and they were a
P.I.T.A. to deal with. For instance, the programmer I
was dealing with did not have a telephone (their programmers
did not have phones, only analysts and managers had them.)
When I needed to call him, I had to call his manager. His
manager treated my calls as "personal calls", even though
they were business. The manager got rather officious with
me, but I threw it right back at him. I really don't like
to do business like that.

FWIW, it seems to me that people were more cooperative years
ago than they are today.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364163 is a reply to message #364090] Fri, 23 February 2018 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
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On Friday, February 23, 2018 at 1:21:32 AM UTC-5, Mike Spencer wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, "Computer Scientists" these days don't seem to have to
>>> do mundane things like writing code. And they get snarky if anyone
>>> suggests that there's anything wrong with this--they're working on the
>>> Great Advances, code is for the trade schools, according to them.
>>>
>>
>> Always was like that. A local community college had great success with a
>> program that included COBOL, JCL, and CICS. Graduates usually had jobs
>> waiting when they got out.
>
> In 1964, when my school had one computer (IBM 1620) they offered a
> course in "computer programming" for which I signed up. It was taught
> by a guy seconded from industry. He specified a textbook on numerical
> methods and proposed to teach us that. Half the class announced that
> they would drop the course if he didn't teach us how write programs.
>
> Despite his protest that you can't write programs unless you know the
> math, he saw the light and gave us an intro to Fortran. We each wrote
> one small program related to our disparate majors -- key punch, cards,
> submit to operator, line printer and all that.
>
> Didn't touch a computer again until 1980 when I borrowed an Apple ][
> and learned Basic. Then not again for seven years, when I got an
> Osborne I, learned C, z80 assembler. Now I'm the digital equivalent
> of a chronic alcoholic. Might never have happened if I'd dropped that
> course in '64.


Personally, I think all programmers, whatever their specialty,
should have a solid background in algebra. IMHO, if someone
is weak in algebra, they'll be a weak programmer.

However, beyond that is dependent on the specialty. Generally
speaking, business application analysts should have some
exposure to accounting and economics. (Companies vary
greatly on what work is done by "systems analysts",
"programmer/analysts", and "programmers".)
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364164 is a reply to message #364150] Fri, 23 February 2018 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 7:11:01 PM UTC-5, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> I professor at MIT I knew from the early 80s to the mid-90s told me
>> that he found "these kids smart, scary-smart" but that many of them
>> had told him that they were going the tech route only because they'd
>> found they were good at it. Expected to put in some entry time in
>> STEM jobs but that they were aiming for management where the real
>> money lay.
>
> Many companies realized that tech people needed a growth track
> that was not management, such as job titles of "super tech".
> How far that was implemented I cannot say.
>

Most of the companies in the silly valley have implemented dual
technical and management tracks. In our company, the highest
title on the technical track is "Fellow" (Equiv to a mgmt VP),
before that is "Distinguished Engineer" and so forth.
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364170 is a reply to message #364119] Fri, 23 February 2018 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:36:15 +0000, jmfbahciv wrote:

> Bob Eager wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:29:18 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-02-22, Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:39:59 +0000, AndyW wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > On 22/02/2018 07:54, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> Debugging can be challenging, but *not* as repugnant and
>>>> >> off-putting as cutting up a human body IMO.  Some few actually
>>>> >> enjoy debugging...
>>>> >> I've not been in that rare company myself.
>>>> >
>>>> > I have to admit that I find debugging more satisfying than coding. I
>>>> > used to gear my coding towards debugging with accessible variables,
>>>> > clear structure etc. I was always later than my colleagues finishing
>>>> > the coding but usually I was one of the first to complete debuggung
>>>> > and testing.
>>>>
>>>> I once saw a theory that programmers are carelewss with code because
>>>> they secretly enjoy the challenge of debugging!
>>>>
>>>> Python? Try assembly language - or, if you are old enough to remember
>>>> BCPL, that's a language where you can store the address of some code
>>>> in a label and GOTO somewhere completely different...
>>>
>>> ALTER ENTER-GOLDILOCKS TO PROCEED TO HASTY-RETREAT.
>>>
>>> See, you can even do it in COBOL. Who needs assembly language to do
>>> instruction modification?
>>
>> I'll raise you a table of octal values, then GOTO to the start of the
>> table for some embedded code!
>>
> I liked indirection and indexing.

BCPL is good at that. In an uncontrolled, unchecked way!


--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364171 is a reply to message #364154] Fri, 23 February 2018 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:55:33 -0800, hancock4 wrote:

> On Thursday, February 22, 2018 at 8:03:12 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> And, of course, after slaving over it for hours, a co worker walking by
>> will spot it instantly.
>
> Oh yes, so true! Been there, done that on both sides many times (helped
> someone passing by their desk, and was helped by someone passing by me.)
>
> Amazing how much a fresh pair of eyes can see.

Best one was passing someone on the stairs when I was a graduate student.
He was porting a particular program to thePDP-8, and mentioned that it
was all fine, except that one component misbehaved in a particular way
after a previous error message had been issued.

I said "Ah, you're overwriting the third word up in (mumble) data
structure at the base of the stack". And so it was.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364172 is a reply to message #364146] Fri, 23 February 2018 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:28:47 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2018-02-23, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> We had to have business cards, too. It was a sign of being a
>>> "grown-up". I just put mine in my desk and forgot about them.
>>
>> In two jobs in a row, six months after I was issued business cards I
>> was gone. I haven't needed cards since, and I'm now stable.
>>
>>
> I never found much use for them, except to drop in the fishbowls for
> drawings at trade shows. Now I think most of it is electronic. With
> "near-field communication" (or whatever it's called) you just hold your
> phone next to the other guy's phone to exchange e business cards.

Or they scan your badge.



--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
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Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364178 is a reply to message #364152] Fri, 23 February 2018 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Mike Causer

On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:50:54 -0800 (PST)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> I've never heard of a lousy programmer being promoted. Usually,
> the bad ones are fired or at best, shunted aside where they could
> do the least damage.

Internally thought to be Documentation. Effect for the customers
though?


Mike
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364180 is a reply to message #364090] Fri, 23 February 2018 19:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Mike Causer

On 23 Feb 2018 02:21:26 -0400
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

> In 1964, when my school had one computer (IBM 1620) they offered a
> course in "computer programming" for which I signed up. It was taught
> by a guy seconded from industry. He specified a textbook on numerical
> methods and proposed to teach us that. Half the class announced that
> they would drop the course if he didn't teach us how write programs.

Hot damn! My first was a 1620 -- doesn't everyone remember their first?
We were a Mech Eng class and computers were not on our syllabus, but we
had an optional hour lecture a week on programming in Fortran II for
the 1620. Best attended lecture series of that year. Time on the
1620 was free of charge and had the side effect of developing our
negotiation skills because running order was entirely arranged next to
the 1620 by the contestants (errr?) each with a deck of cards in their
hand.

Deck of cards useless as a weapon because they'd fly out of order of
course.


Mike
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364184 is a reply to message #364163] Fri, 23 February 2018 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2018-02-23, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:

> Personally, I think all programmers, whatever their specialty,
> should have a solid background in algebra. IMHO, if someone
> is weak in algebra, they'll be a weak programmer.

Better still, a solid background in logic. Any programmer worth
his salt should know about De Morgan's theorem, whether he knows
its name or not.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364191 is a reply to message #364069] Sat, 24 February 2018 03:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
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On Thu, 2018-02-22, Jorgen Grahn wrote:
....
> I like debugging, or more generally troubleshooting. Apart from the
> stress, and the possibility of failure.
>
> Things like getting reports of failures from customer sites at the
> other side of the world, gathering the scant evidence, and trying to
> find ways to reproduce the problem. Or devising ways of getting more
> information.

Like the problem I've investigating on and off for the past two weeks,
using various improvised techniques. The latest theory is it's caused
by the Olympic Games and will go away on Sunday ...

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364192 is a reply to message #364132] Sat, 24 February 2018 03:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
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On Fri, 2018-02-23, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On 22 Feb 2018 22:54:45 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> On the other hand, I feel uneasy when I'm just writing code and noone
>> is going to run it for real until a year later. The code isn't
>> complete until it's in production.
>
> Interestingly, I have just such a situation this morning. The code
> is not working.

I was probably unclear: I meant something more specific:

- A long distance in space and time between the programmer and the
user is a problem.
- You're not done until someone is using your code as intended.

Sometimes (not so much recently) I meet programmers who think their
job is to write the code, make it compile, ship it off to testing --
and then they're done. That's an inefficient and boring way to work,
IMHO.

> My system and the Production systems are just different enough in
> this area that there may be some gymnastics required.

Ah, yes. It's good when those two to be similar, but it's not always
feasible.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364193 is a reply to message #364184] Sat, 24 February 2018 03:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jorgen Grahn is currently offline  Jorgen Grahn
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On Sat, 2018-02-24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2018-02-23, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I think all programmers, whatever their specialty,
>> should have a solid background in algebra. IMHO, if someone
>> is weak in algebra, they'll be a weak programmer.

That's the stance my university took, around 1990. You didn't get to
do computer science until after some hefty maths courses (where most
of the students dropped off).

> Better still, a solid background in logic.

I think of it as having a talent for working within systems of rules.
Maths is a good way to exercise that talent. I suppose board games
are too, but I'm a lousy player.

But I'm not sure ... nowadays I tend to think of programming as a
craft. I never used much of my formal training, and some of the best
programmers I've worked with had none.

> Any programmer worth his salt should know about De Morgan's theorem,
> whether he knows its name or not.

I had forgotten the name, but yes.

/Jorgen

--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364197 is a reply to message #364184] Sat, 24 February 2018 03:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 24 Feb 2018 01:22:22 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2018-02-23, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I think all programmers, whatever their specialty,
>> should have a solid background in algebra. IMHO, if someone
>> is weak in algebra, they'll be a weak programmer.
>
> Better still, a solid background in logic. Any programmer worth
> his salt should know about De Morgan's theorem, whether he knows
> its name or not.

Both are essential, I'd also like to see some awareness of
algorithmic complexity.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364198 is a reply to message #364162] Sat, 24 February 2018 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:03:03 -0800 (PST)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> Yes, code reviews are very helpful per the above, and other reasons, too.
>
> But how often are they practiced? My own experience has been no
> manager or analyst ever cared to see work, even when asked to do so.

Every team I've worked in for the last couple of decades or so has
done code reviews. As with code the review quality varies.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364199 is a reply to message #364180] Sat, 24 February 2018 03:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:00:41 +0000
Mike Causer <m.r.causer@gogglemail.com> wrote:

> Deck of cards useless as a weapon because they'd fly out of order of
> course.

Elastic bands round the decks.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364200 is a reply to message #364164] Sat, 24 February 2018 04:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On Fri, 23 Feb 2018 21:10:02 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018 at 7:11:01 PM UTC-5, Mike Spencer wrote:

>> Many companies realized that tech people needed a growth track
>> that was not management, such as job titles of "super tech".
>> How far that was implemented I cannot say.
>>
>
> Most of the companies in the silly valley have implemented dual
> technical and management tracks. In our company, the highest
> title on the technical track is "Fellow" (Equiv to a mgmt VP),
> before that is "Distinguished Engineer" and so forth.

Not just in the silly valley, the practice has spread into a lot of
the tech industry.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364213 is a reply to message #364192] Sat, 24 February 2018 08:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

On 24 Feb 2018 08:19:22 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

> On Fri, 2018-02-23, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
>> On 22 Feb 2018 22:54:45 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
>> wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> On the other hand, I feel uneasy when I'm just writing code and noone
>>> is going to run it for real until a year later. The code isn't
>>> complete until it's in production.
>>
>> Interestingly, I have just such a situation this morning. The code
>> is not working.
>
> I was probably unclear: I meant something more specific:
>
> - A long distance in space and time between the programmer and the
> user is a problem.
> - You're not done until someone is using your code as intended.
>
> Sometimes (not so much recently) I meet programmers who think their
> job is to write the code, make it compile, ship it off to testing --
> and then they're done. That's an inefficient and boring way to work,
> IMHO.

Especially when "testing" has no clue what they are testing for or
why.

>> My system and the Production systems are just different enough in
>> this area that there may be some gymnastics required.
>
> Ah, yes. It's good when those two to be similar, but it's not always
> feasible.
>
> /Jorgen
Re: Computer science hot major in college (article) [message #364215 is a reply to message #364193] Sat, 24 February 2018 09:35 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: JimP

On 24 Feb 2018 08:29:08 GMT, Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se>
wrote:

> On Sat, 2018-02-24, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2018-02-23, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Personally, I think all programmers, whatever their specialty,
>>> should have a solid background in algebra. IMHO, if someone
>>> is weak in algebra, they'll be a weak programmer.
>
> That's the stance my university took, around 1990. You didn't get to
> do computer science until after some hefty maths courses (where most
> of the students dropped off).
>
>> Better still, a solid background in logic.
>
> I think of it as having a talent for working within systems of rules.
> Maths is a good way to exercise that talent. I suppose board games
> are too, but I'm a lousy player.
>
> But I'm not sure ... nowadays I tend to think of programming as a
> craft. I never used much of my formal training, and some of the best
> programmers I've worked with had none.
>
>> Any programmer worth his salt should know about De Morgan's theorem,
>> whether he knows its name or not.
>
> I had forgotten the name, but yes.
>
> /Jorgen

I looked it up... never used it in any programming class, and never
used it to repair a computer. I had to take a math minor so I probably
had it in algebra. Don't remember it from the calculus classes I took,
I have gladly forgotten my calculus.
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