| Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338619] |
Tue, 28 February 2017 13:39  |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
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The show Sailor Moon quite often has bad guys turning into good guys,
for example, the Spectre Sisters, amongst many otherws.
The Dragonball franchise also quite often has bad guys turning into good
guys, with Goku himself, being the first, and Mai (at least as of the
Future Trunks saga), being the latest.
In fact, in the current "universe survival arc" of DB super, which is a
tournament arc most of the fighter's for Goku's team (7, I think), half
of them are former bad guys.
In Pretty Cure, Kyrie, starts out as a bad guy and turns into a good
guy. In what I consider the much-improved remake, Splash Star, the much
improved versions of Kyrie, Michiru and Koaru, start out as bad guys and
turn into good guys.
In fact in the pretty cure series that I have seen (I think about half
of them), there seems to be a bad guy turning into a good guy.
Are there any other shows where bad guys turn into good guys?
I think I need to explain something: the email associated with this
account: brian_christians@hotmail.com is basically a "spamcatcher"
account that is pretty much unmonitored.
When I was setting up my acess to newsgroups, I did not want to receive
the spam that is associated with usenet use.
I considered doing as many people do and put in to the address
associated with newsgroups something like "nowhere@nowheresville.com."
I was concerned that anything I choose might be an actual email address,
and I would be subjecting whoever owns it to the spam that I am avoiding.
As a result, I decided to make a real address to serve as a spamcatcher
address that is a real address (brian_christians@hotmail.com) but that I
only go to every few months to empty out.
As a result of that, any mail that is sent to
brian_christians@hotmail.com will probably not be seen for several
months, if it is seen at all.
I suppose stuff can still be sent to it, but if anything is, that fact
would have to be posted on this group for me to know about it.
I will never put either of my "real addresses" or even some kind of hint
(such as:"change the obvious in 'brian_christians at hotmail.com'") for
it in a usenet message.
In future messages, I will put a slightly less long winded version of
that in my signature
--
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338625 is a reply to message #338619] |
Tue, 28 February 2017 14:48  |
David Johnston
Messages: 220
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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On 2/28/2017 11:39 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> The show Sailor Moon quite often has bad guys turning into good guys,
> for example, the Spectre Sisters, amongst many otherws.
>
> The Dragonball franchise also quite often has bad guys turning into good
> guys, with Goku himself, being the first, and Mai (at least as of the
> Future Trunks saga), being the latest.
>
> In fact, in the current "universe survival arc" of DB super, which is a
> tournament arc most of the fighter's for Goku's team (7, I think), half
> of them are former bad guys.
>
> In Pretty Cure, Kyrie, starts out as a bad guy and turns into a good
> guy. In what I consider the much-improved remake, Splash Star, the much
> improved versions of Kyrie, Michiru and Koaru, start out as bad guys and
> turn into good guys.
>
> In fact in the pretty cure series that I have seen (I think about half
> of them), there seems to be a bad guy turning into a good guy.
>
> Are there any other shows where bad guys turn into good guys?
>
The shows that immediately come to mind are edge cases like Matantei
Loki and Ranma 1/2. Ah. I have it. Negima. Evangeline starts as a
bad guy but joins team Negima.
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338641 is a reply to message #338619] |
Tue, 28 February 2017 18:27 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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On 2/28/17 1:39 PM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> The show Sailor Moon quite often has bad guys turning into good guys,
> for example, the Spectre Sisters, amongst many otherws.
>
> The Dragonball franchise also quite often has bad guys turning into good
> guys, with Goku himself, being the first, and Mai (at least as of the
> Future Trunks saga), being the latest.
>
> In fact, in the current "universe survival arc" of DB super, which is a
> tournament arc most of the fighter's for Goku's team (7, I think), half
> of them are former bad guys.
>
> In Pretty Cure, Kyrie, starts out as a bad guy and turns into a good
> guy. In what I consider the much-improved remake, Splash Star, the much
> improved versions of Kyrie, Michiru and Koaru, start out as bad guys and
> turn into good guys.
>
> In fact in the pretty cure series that I have seen (I think about half
> of them), there seems to be a bad guy turning into a good guy.
>
> Are there any other shows where bad guys turn into good guys?
>
Most Shonen series have at least one, and often many, such. Saint Seiya
-- Phoenix Ikki was an adversary at first, later became one of the main
5. Yoroiden Samurai Troopers -- Sh'ten Douji was one of their most
formidable enemies, as was Lady Kayura, and both switched sides. There's
a ton of examples in One Piece.
And it happens in other stuff, too; my own Balanced Sword trilogy
features several characters that switch sides at various points.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338684 is a reply to message #338673] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 01:23 |
Stainless Steel Rat
Messages: 312
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:27:02 -0700, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> In a fictional story, isn't that pretty much the reason for anything
> happening, and it is a testament to the author's skill if he or she
> makes the reason believable or not.
Not really. A character acting out of character creates dissonance in
readers' minds. No amount of skill can make that believable. Whether or
not a given reader chooses to ignore the dissonance and accept that
behavior has nothing to do with the author's skill.
--
\m/ (--) \m/
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338688 is a reply to message #338684] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 02:16 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
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On 03/01/2017 11:23 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:27:02 -0700, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>
>> In a fictional story, isn't that pretty much the reason for anything
>> happening, and it is a testament to the author's skill if he or she
>> makes the reason believable or not.
>
> Not really. A character acting out of character creates dissonance in
> readers' minds. No amount of skill can make that believable. Whether or
> not a given reader chooses to ignore the dissonance and accept that
> behavior has nothing to do with the author's skill.
>
Yes, but the author needs to design and write a character in the first
place so that whatever the character does is not a dissonance or "out of
character" for that particular character (for example, changing sides).
If a character does something that is out of character, the author is
either a bad author or just "dropped the ball" on that particular
character in that particular instance.
If all, or even most, of the characters are constantly doing stuff out
of character for that character shows that the author is unskilled
(unless the story is perhaps some kind of comedy or farce where the
characters doing things out of character is intentional).
Once I saw an article about the "power of perseverance" that said that
if you wanted to produce a novel, what you need to do is write for an
hour (or 2, or 3 hours) each hour for a year and the pages will pile up
and all of a sudden, you will have a novel.
That will not produce a novel, or at least it probably will not, what it
will most probably produce is 365 loosely connected short stories.
I am not an author, but it is my understanding is that most of the time
needs to be spent in developing the characters and determining what they
would do in particular situations, just sitting at a desk and "making
stuff up" is perhaps therapeutic and relaxing, but a really bad way to
actually write.
If writing historical fiction, also a lot of time needs to be spent on
researching whatever event is being depicted (WW1, WW2, whatever).
The actual writing is, as Mozart (at least in the movie Amadeus) put it,
is just "scribbling and bibbling."
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338691 is a reply to message #338688] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 07:26 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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On 3/2/17 2:16 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/01/2017 11:23 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>> On Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:27:02 -0700, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>>
>>> In a fictional story, isn't that pretty much the reason for anything
>>> happening, and it is a testament to the author's skill if he or she
>>> makes the reason believable or not.
>>
>> Not really. A character acting out of character creates dissonance in
>> readers' minds. No amount of skill can make that believable. Whether or
>> not a given reader chooses to ignore the dissonance and accept that
>> behavior has nothing to do with the author's skill.
>>
>
> Yes, but the author needs to design and write a character in the first
> place so that whatever the character does is not a dissonance or "out of
> character" for that particular character (for example, changing sides).
>
> If a character does something that is out of character, the author is
> either a bad author or just "dropped the ball" on that particular
> character in that particular instance.
>
> If all, or even most, of the characters are constantly doing stuff out
> of character for that character shows that the author is unskilled
> (unless the story is perhaps some kind of comedy or farce where the
> characters doing things out of character is intentional).
>
> Once I saw an article about the "power of perseverance" that said that
> if you wanted to produce a novel, what you need to do is write for an
> hour (or 2, or 3 hours) each hour for a year and the pages will pile up
> and all of a sudden, you will have a novel.
>
> That will not produce a novel, or at least it probably will not, what it
> will most probably produce is 365 loosely connected short stories.
>
> I am not an author, but it is my understanding is that most of the time
> needs to be spent in developing the characters and determining what they
> would do in particular situations, just sitting at a desk and "making
> stuff up" is perhaps therapeutic and relaxing, but a really bad way to
> actually write.
I am an author, and your description above holds for one type of
author. The phrase often used in rec.arts.sf.composition is "nine and
sixty ways", from Kipling's "There are nine-and-sixty ways of composing
tribal lays, and _every single one of them is right_."
Some authors go through a long and careful process of designing
characters, and then write those characters consciously and rationally
to fit that design. Others sit down with a general idea of the plot and
a vague idea of who's the first character to start with and start
writing. Others design the characters, but then find the characters
refusing to go in the directions the author originally intended. And so
on and so forth.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338692 is a reply to message #338691] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 08:08 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/02/2017 05:26 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> Some authors go through a long and careful process of designing
> characters, and then write those characters consciously and rationally
> to fit that design. Others sit down with a general idea of the plot and
> a vague idea of who's the first character to start with and start
> writing. Others design the characters, but then find the characters
> refusing to go in the directions the author originally intended. And so
> on and so forth.
>
>
>
>
And my contention is that the characters only do what the author makes
them do, they don't "refuse" to do or not do any thing.
If you are writing a story, how exactly does a character do something
that you do not want him to or that he is not "supposed" to do?
If it is "out of character," did the ghost of someone like, I have no
idea who, take possession of your hand and make you write it?
If I were to write a story, I really don't know if it would have a
"good" or "bad" plot, consistent or inconsistent characters, be an
overall "good" or "bad" novel, or even a "good" or "bad" collection of
"loosely connected short stories" etc. but I don't know how exactly
they would do anything I do not want them to or anything that, at least
in my opinion, is out of character, unless I had some specific reason to
make them do something out of character.
I also think that if I just sat at my desk and "made stuff up," and was
still able to keep consistent characters, plot, etc., and not just a
pile of loosely connected short stories, that would testify to my skill
at being able to do that.
If I carefully planned out my plot, characters, story, and whatever else
and even then, was not able to keep the characters consistent, that
would testify against my ability to either write or plan out consistent
characters in the first place
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338705 is a reply to message #338692] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 19:42 |
Stainless Steel Rat
Messages: 312
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thu, 02 Mar 2017 06:08:22 -0700, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> And my contention is that the characters only do what the author makes
> them do, they don't "refuse" to do or not do any thing.
Oh, yes they do. Not every author has to deal with this phenomenon but
many considered to be masters of the craft do or did, and many of these
consider forcing characters to do things to be a mark of bad writing.
> If you are writing a story, how exactly does a character do something
> that you do not want him to or that he is not "supposed" to do?
By rambling in authors' brains or otherwise distracting them so much that
they can't write anything until they let their characters have their ways.
I myself am not an author (I dabbled a bit with fan fiction but I don't
count that) but I've been a gamer for many years. I've had a few
characters in my head become so frustrated at something that they've
pulled that stunt on me, keeping me from sleeping at night until I play
medium for their venting.
--
\m/ (--) \m/
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338706 is a reply to message #338692] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 20:20 |
David Johnston
Messages: 220
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/2/2017 6:08 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/02/2017 05:26 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Some authors go through a long and careful process of designing
>> characters, and then write those characters consciously and rationally
>> to fit that design. Others sit down with a general idea of the plot and
>> a vague idea of who's the first character to start with and start
>> writing. Others design the characters, but then find the characters
>> refusing to go in the directions the author originally intended. And so
>> on and so forth.
>>
>>
>>
>>
> And my contention is that the characters only do what the author makes
> them do, they don't "refuse" to do or not do any thing.
>
> If you are writing a story, how exactly does a character do something
> that you do not want him to or that he is not "supposed" to do?
If the author has a really clear established visualization of the
character it can easily find that there's no way to write what it wants
the character to do and have it make sense.
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338707 is a reply to message #338705] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 20:28 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/02/2017 05:42 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
> Oh, yes they do. Not every author has to deal with this phenomenon but
> many considered to be masters of the craft do or did, and many of these
> consider forcing characters to do things to be a mark of bad writing.
>
How on earth do non-thinking agents "do" anything. The only thinking
agent in this equation is the author.
> By rambling in authors' brains or otherwise distracting them so much that
> they can't write anything until they let their characters have their ways.
The character does not have a "their way" since they are a non-thinking
agent. The only thinking entity in the equation is the author.
> I myself am not an author (I dabbled a bit with fan fiction but I don't
> count that) but I've been a gamer for many years. I've had a few
> characters in my head become so frustrated at something that they've
> pulled that stunt on me, keeping me from sleeping at night until I play
> medium for their venting.
>
I am not a gamer, but characters that I few games I have played have 2
types of characters: characters that I control and players I do not.
Players that I have control over only do exactly what I want them to.
If I want Lara Croft to turn left, that is what she does.
Sometimes I might hit the wrong button, and she squats, but that is
because I hit the wrong button, not because she "wanted to."
Other characters (such as all the guards or animals) do not do things
because of "free will" or because they "want to" their actions are
dictated by the AI from the original programmer of the game and is
completely deterministic.
The only thinking entity involved is me (at least at the time I play it,
before that the programmer was involved), any of the characters in the
game are just pixels on the screen whose behavior is controlled by some
C++ or Basic or whatever language code is used and/or what I do with the
controls that can't get "frustrated" or exercise "free will" or "want"
anything.
The only entity that can get frustrated is me, or whoever the player is,
in wanting to perhaps manipulate the controls better, use a "better"
strategy (such as not trying to build my city so quickly in Simcity 4).
The characters in the game (Lara Croft, Duke Nukem, or whoever) are just
pixels on a screen and don't care (or even can care) what happens in the
game or elsewhere.
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338710 is a reply to message #338707] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 21:40 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/2/17 8:28 PM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/02/2017 05:42 PM, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:
>
>> Oh, yes they do. Not every author has to deal with this phenomenon but
>> many considered to be masters of the craft do or did, and many of these
>> consider forcing characters to do things to be a mark of bad writing.
>>
> How on earth do non-thinking agents "do" anything. The only thinking
> agent in this equation is the author.
>
You make the unwarranted assumption that the craft of writing is an
entirely conscious one for all authors. While that is, in general, true
for me, it is NOT true for a large number of authors. While it is -- in
the broad sense -- true that the author is indeed the only one doing the
writing, the writing is not in many cases controlled by a conscious
process in the same way, say, you'd assemble an IKEA cabinet. Many
authors INTERNALIZE the character, to the point that they aren't
consciously directing them; they start writing the character and the
dialogue and actions just seem to flow. It's a shame that
rec.arts.sf.composition is pretty inactive now, because in the old days
you could go on there and discuss the different processes with many
published authors.
A famous example of this is Robert E. Howard and Conan. He said that he
often didn't feel that he was *creating* the adventures, but much more
as though the Cimmerian himself were standing just behind him, telling
him what those adventures had been.
I've had occasional flashes of this, though more often during
roleplaying games; I was playing one character and suddenly, in the
middle of dialogue with another character who was Catholic and having a
crisis of faith, I found myself, as my character, giving him comforting
and considered religious counsel; without EVER planning it, or even
thinking about it, I simply suddenly realized that the character was
deeply, solidly religious with a complete faith in God, something
utterly alien to me, personally, but completely RIGHT for that character.
Sure, it's me playing them, but the subconscious is *POWERFUL*, and is
more than capable of effectively playing many roles in ways that you
cannot consciously enunciate; if you COULD easily and transparently
understand your subconscious, no one would ever need a therapist.
So it is more than possible, it is a COMMON phenomenon for some
authors, to have a plot outline, know what they intend to have happen,
and then find that their characters decide to go haring off in a
different direction.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338711 is a reply to message #338710] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 23:16 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/02/2017 07:40 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> You make the unwarranted assumption that the craft of writing is an
> entirely conscious one for all authors.
Anything any one does is an entirely conscious process. That some kind
of subsconcious "something" even exists is an entirely unwarranted
dogmatic assertion that there is no real evidence for, at least that I
have ever seen. If there is any evidence, please provide it.
>
> I've had occasional flashes of this, though more often during
> roleplaying games; I was playing one character and suddenly, in the
> middle of dialogue with another character who was Catholic and having a
> crisis of faith, I found myself, as my character, giving him comforting
> and considered religious counsel; without EVER planning it, or even
> thinking about it, I simply suddenly realized that the character was
> deeply, solidly religious with a complete faith in God, something
> utterly alien to me, personally, but completely RIGHT for that character.
>
No one was having a "crisis of faith," characters in video games are
merely pixels on a screen controlled by C++ (or basic or python or
whatever) code and perhaps how well the player can manipulate the
controls.
If this character came across as Catholic, it was because the original
coder made him say/do things that a Catholic would do, not because there
was any thinking entity that had accepted or been baptised into
Catholicism or believed in God or whatever.
Any answers it gives are either a bunch of sayings preprogrammed into
(probably) an array, or they are constructed by a more sophisticated AI,
there is no actual being producing these sentences.
Any advice you give it would not comfort it, because there is nothing to
comfort, unless you are saying that you can comfort a bunch of C++
subroutines.
> Sure, it's me playing them, but the subconscious is *POWERFUL*, and
> is more than capable of effectively playing many roles in ways that you
> cannot consciously enunciate; if you COULD easily and transparently
> understand your subconscious, no one would ever need a therapist.
You attribute things to the "subconscious" that there is no evidence
for, at least that I have ever seen, and I don't think there is any good
reason to think even exists.
People need therapists because their conscious mind cannot properly deal
with reality or perhaps because of a chemical imbalance or other
physical problem, resulting in their perhaps needing medication in
addition to therapy, not because their subconscious has somehow "gone bad."
I do not make the assertion that the supernatural (if there is some kind
of subconcious that is "beyond" the natural mind, that is supernatural)
does not exist, but by the same token I have seen no evidence to think
any kind of supernatural realm or soul or subconscious exists.
>
> So it is more than possible, it is a COMMON phenomenon for some
> authors, to have a plot outline, know what they intend to have happen,
> and then find that their characters decide to go haring off in a
> different direction.
>
Again, I say that the characters are not thinking beings and can't
"decide to do" anything.
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338712 is a reply to message #338706] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 23:24 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/02/2017 06:20 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> If the author has a really clear established visualization of the
> character it can easily find that there's no way to write what it wants
> the character to do and have it make sense.
>
>
I am still absolutely baffled at how a non-thinking entity can "want to"
or "not want to" do anything, but by the argument you presented,
wouldn't a character that is well deigned and well implemented by a
skilled writer be incapable of doing anything (face turn, heel turn,
whatever) that is "out of character," and if the character does
something "out of character" (at least very often) it is indicative of
the underlying problem of the writer being unskilled at character
development or some other aspect of storytelling.
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338713 is a reply to message #338712] |
Thu, 02 March 2017 23:39 |
David Johnston
Messages: 220
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/2/2017 9:24 PM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/02/2017 06:20 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> If the author has a really clear established visualization of the
>> character it can easily find that there's no way to write what it wants
>> the character to do and have it make sense.
>>
>>
> I am still absolutely baffled at how a non-thinking entity can "want to"
> or "not want to" do anything, but by the argument you presented,
> wouldn't a character that is well deigned and well implemented by a
> skilled writer be incapable of doing anything (face turn, heel turn,
> whatever) that is "out of character,"
No. It would just mean that the implementation turns rather less "well".
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338725 is a reply to message #338712] |
Fri, 03 March 2017 11:23 |
Magewolf
Messages: 54
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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On 3/2/2017 11:24 PM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/02/2017 06:20 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> If the author has a really clear established visualization of the
>> character it can easily find that there's no way to write what it wants
>> the character to do and have it make sense.
>>
>>
> I am still absolutely baffled at how a non-thinking entity can "want to"
> or "not want to" do anything, but by the argument you presented,
> wouldn't a character that is well deigned and well implemented by a
> skilled writer be incapable of doing anything (face turn, heel turn,
> whatever) that is "out of character," and if the character does
> something "out of character" (at least very often) it is indicative of
> the underlying problem of the writer being unskilled at character
> development or some other aspect of storytelling.
>
>
Think of it this way. Do you know any friend or relative well enough
that you have a pretty good idea what they would do in most situations?
That is much the same thing that is being talked about here. Some
authors sort of run character simulations in there head much as you
might know how your mother would react if someone was making a scene at
one of her parties.
Now that does not stop them from changing the character but sometimes it
works out to be easier to change the story especially if it is a very
well realized or long running character.
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338726 is a reply to message #338711] |
Fri, 03 March 2017 12:05 |
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Originally posted by: Bobbie Sellers
On 03/02/2017 08:16 PM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/02/2017 07:40 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> You make the unwarranted assumption that the craft of writing is an
>> entirely conscious one for all authors.
>
> Anything any one does is an entirely conscious process. That some kind
> of subsconcious "something" even exists is an entirely unwarranted
> dogmatic assertion that there is no real evidence for, at least that I
> have ever seen. If there is any evidence, please provide it.
Baloney. Here is one evidence of a brain that you
are only conscious of when you upset it.
< https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201111/your-backup- brain>
Not only that but the pre-conscious mind is just what you
don't need to know right now. The sub-conscious is always on and
observing, and cogitating and may make decisions for you based on
matters your busy talky, typing mind has ignored.
snip
> Again, I say that the characters are not thinking beings and can't
> "decide to do" anything.
The programs that run on your computer are not conscious either
but if properly designed refuse to do things that are outside their
area of competence. The characters in stories are not conscious either
but good characters (in the sense of interesting) are simulated as
subroutines in the brain. If they lack the motivation for a switch
in loyalties it will not happen. When we read the character in a story
we if the character is interesting will simulate the possible
actions.
I.e. Superman(Kal-el, Clark Kent) will always be the good
guy unless he encounters some nasty Kryptonite. "D'Artagnan, Athos,
Aramis and Porthos" will always win sword fights especially against
the Cardinal's men and will be good guys. The authors invest the
characters with very limited but real autonomy so that when a reader
encounters the character it will be self-consistent. This may not
be done consciously though with an experienced and skilled writer
he will do a lot of conscious work on the character.
No thought on the character's part is needed.
No supernatural agency needed.
I once investigated what was meant by "the soul" and the truth is that
the ancients decided to call whatever gave them life that. It
was identified with the breath and the mysterious beating of the heart
as well as the agency that the person manifested. Sometime it was
identified with the human form.
bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338737 is a reply to message #338711] |
Fri, 03 March 2017 21:12 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/2/17 11:16 PM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/02/2017 07:40 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> You make the unwarranted assumption that the craft of writing is an
>> entirely conscious one for all authors.
>
> Anything any one does is an entirely conscious process. That some kind
> of subsconcious "something" even exists is an entirely unwarranted
> dogmatic assertion that there is no real evidence for, at least that I
> have ever seen. If there is any evidence, please provide it.
>>
>> I've had occasional flashes of this, though more often during
>> roleplaying games; I was playing one character and suddenly, in the
>> middle of dialogue with another character who was Catholic and having a
>> crisis of faith, I found myself, as my character, giving him comforting
>> and considered religious counsel; without EVER planning it, or even
>> thinking about it, I simply suddenly realized that the character was
>> deeply, solidly religious with a complete faith in God, something
>> utterly alien to me, personally, but completely RIGHT for that character.
>>
>
> No one was having a "crisis of faith," characters in video games
I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not know
that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>
>> Sure, it's me playing them, but the subconscious is *POWERFUL*, and
>> is more than capable of effectively playing many roles in ways that you
>> cannot consciously enunciate; if you COULD easily and transparently
>> understand your subconscious, no one would ever need a therapist.
>
> You attribute things to the "subconscious" that there is no evidence
> for, at least that I have ever seen, and I don't think there is any good
> reason to think even exists.
As someone with a degree in psychology and years of knowledge on this
subject, you are, quite utterly, wrong.
Can you, with sufficient work, learn to access SOME of the processes of
the subconscious? Yes. Can you be aware of all of them? No.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338740 is a reply to message #338726] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 03:49 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/03/2017 10:05 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> Baloney. Here is one evidence of a brain that you
> are only conscious of when you upset it.
> < https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201111/your-backup- brain>
>
This article merely says there are neurons that are not physically
located in your brain.
It also does not say anything about anything, being "beyond the
intellect," (which is what you guys seems to be arguing for), it merely
says that some of it is not physically located in the brain.
> Not only that but the pre-conscious mind is just what you
> don't need to know right now. The sub-conscious is always on and
> observing, and cogitating and may make decisions for you based on
> matters your busy talky, typing mind has ignored.
Even if part of what influences behavior is locateed in the gut, that is
still part of the body and completely physical and not some weird
ethereal outside force that you guys seem to be arguing for. I am still
waiting for evidence of that.
>
> snip
>
>> Again, I say that the characters are not thinking beings and can't
>> "decide to do" anything.
>
> The programs that run on your computer are not conscious either
> but if properly designed refuse to do things that are outside their
> area of competence.
If I write a program to calculate whether a number between 1 and 1000 is
prime, then try to use it calculate if 1001, it merely is incapable of
doing so, it does not "refuse" to do so.
If I put some some sort of learning AI into the program, it may be able
to learn in general method for calculating if a number is prime from an
algorithm that calculates only the primes between 1 and 1000, and will
thus be able to do so.
I don't know enough about the state of AI to know if such a program can
be written, but if I write a standard program that is capable of just
calculating if 1..1000 is prime, then want to add this "learning
capability, I can.
If I want to change it to calculating the square of the number, I can do
that. In other words what it does is totally in my control.
The program is not "refusing to cooperate" or "cooperating with" the
programmer.
The characters in stories are not conscious either
> but good characters (in the sense of interesting) are simulated as
> subroutines in the brain. If they lack the motivation for a switch
> in loyalties it will not happen. When we read the character in a story
> we if the character is interesting will simulate the possible
> actions.
> I.e. Superman(Kal-el, Clark Kent) will always be the good
> guy unless he encounters some nasty Kryptonite. "D'Artagnan, Athos,
> Aramis and Porthos" will always win sword fights especially against
> the Cardinal's men and will be good guys. The authors invest the
> characters with very limited but real autonomy so that when a reader
> encounters the character it will be self-consistent. This may not
> be done consciously though with an experienced and skilled writer
> he will do a lot of conscious work on the character.
>
I can make a story where Superman turns into a bad guy that uses his
powers to take over and rule the world. Whether this heel turn is
believable or "just happens" for no apparent reason is up to my skill as
an author, but I have complete control over what Superman (at least the
Superman in my story) does.
If there were an actual person (or Kryptonian or whatever) named
Superman, his actions would be determined by his "nature," but the
actions of a character in a story I write is determined 100% by me,
whether or not those actions do or don't make sense for the character.
If I want him to lose against Goku, that is what happens, if I want him
to win against Goku, that is what happens. If there were a "real Goku,"
I have no idea who would win in a real fight, but if I wrote a story
about a fight between Goku and Superman, the winner would be whoever I
want it to.
In fact, I think what would be in their "nature" is that they might
continue to have sparring sessions, but they team up to protect the
earth from bad guys like Buu and Frieza and whoever, but that is a
decision on my part of what their nature is, not based on what their
nature "really" is, whatever that means in the first place.
> I once investigated what was meant by "the soul" and the truth is
> that the ancients decided to call whatever gave them life that. It
> was identified with the breath and the mysterious beating of the heart
> as well as the agency that the person manifested. Sometime it was
> identified with the human form.
>
There is no evidence that any thing remotely like the soul exists, or at
least I am stil waiting for some. The article you cited says that there
are neurons that influence behavior and decisions that are physically
outside the brain, it does not say anything about a "soul" or that there
is something nonphysical (or supernatural, as far as I am concerned
"nonphysical" and "supernatural" mean pretty much the same thing)
influencing behavior.
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338742 is a reply to message #338737] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 04:14 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>
You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players might be
having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in the
game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338743 is a reply to message #338725] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 05:00 |
Brian
Messages: 441
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 03/03/2017 09:23 AM, Magewolf wrote:
> Think of it this way. Do you know any friend or relative well enough
> that you have a pretty good idea what they would do in most situations?
> That is much the same thing that is being talked about here. Some
> authors sort of run character simulations in there head much as you
> might know how your mother would react if someone was making a scene at
> one of her parties.
>
How I think someone would react does not influence how they really react
and what I think they would do makes no difference. It may be useful,
and if I know the person well enough, it might make my assessment of
what they would do correct in most situation, but it does not determine
what they would do.
How a real person reacts to a situation is determined by their "nature"
or some other factor that is completely out of my control, and usually
"makes sense" in some context, and might even be quite predictable if
enough is known about the person and the situation.
The situation for a character in a story is somewhat the opposite. I
might base his actions on my evaluation of what I think a character
would do in a particular situation based (but it is still my assessment,
it may or may not be what a real person would do) on the personality I
gave the character, what he has done in past (but those are still things
I made him do), etc.
Or I might have him do the opposite for satirical or comedic purposes.
Or I might have him do the something that makes no sense, at at least to
you, because my evaluation is somehow "wrong," or at least is different
from what your evaluation of what the character would/should do.
Or I might just be a bad writer.
Whatever I have him do is determined by me or whoever writes the story,
not his "nature," or if it is, I (or whoever wrote the story) determined
what his nature would be in the first place.
--
My Yonkoma: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brian0908/albums/7215768022352 6176
The E-mail associated with the account is a "spamcatcher" account that I
got to every couple of months to empty out, and anything sent to it will
not be seen for probably several months, if it is seen at all.
Brian Christiansen
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338748 is a reply to message #338742] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 09:32 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/4/17 4:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>
> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
> that either one is a computer program,
No. No they are not. A real RPG is a face-to-face game, played by human
beings. The most famous such game is Dungeons and Dragons (D&D), but
there are literally hundreds of others ranging from the extremely
general (GURPS, Hero System, FATE) to specific adaptations of known
media and book properties (Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Amber) to games
tailored for specific genres (D&D, Space Opera, Vampire:The Masquerade).
The computerized versions, ranging from the ancient Colossal
Cave/Adventure running on mainframes in the 1970s to the modern CRPGs
such as the Fallout series, Dragon Age, World of Warcraft, Persona,
etc., are pale, pale imitations of this since they are, as you mention,
merely computer programs with vast limitations instead of living human
beings playing characters with the full range of reactions and thought
that human beings can bring to such things.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338749 is a reply to message #338740] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 09:46 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/4/17 3:49 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/03/2017 10:05 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> Baloney. Here is one evidence of a brain that you
>> are only conscious of when you upset it.
>> < https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201111/your-backup- brain>
>>
> This article merely says there are neurons that are not physically
> located in your brain.
>
> It also does not say anything about anything, being "beyond the
> intellect," (which is what you guys seems to be arguing for), it merely
> says that some of it is not physically located in the brain.
>
>> Not only that but the pre-conscious mind is just what you
>> don't need to know right now. The sub-conscious is always on and
>> observing, and cogitating and may make decisions for you based on
>> matters your busy talky, typing mind has ignored.
>
> Even if part of what influences behavior is locateed in the gut, that is
> still part of the body and completely physical and not some weird
> ethereal outside force that you guys seem to be arguing for. I am still
> waiting for evidence of that.
No one (that I know of) is arguing about "soul" or "ethereal force" or
any of that. I'm not a dualist; I believe everything's physical.
The subconscious isn't something nonphysical. It's a set of mental
processes that YOU CANNOT CONSCIOUSLY ACCESS AND CONTROL. =
If it helps, think of your conscious mind as the GUI and high-level
programming that the user gets to play with. There's a lot of other
stuff going on underneath that the user doesn't know, and, without
special tools and knowledge, can't access or affect. The conscious mind
is the interface between the human and the world; it's a tremendously
complex and flexible interface, but it's still only a small part of the
actual human intellect, much of which is functioning below the level of
conscious thought.
This is not even a matter of argument, it's a matter of FACT. We
*can't* consciously access all our thought processes. If we did, we
could explain HOW we think. We would understand the process that leads
from "my eye receptors have been triggered by light" to "I see my dog
Spot running towards me through the field, chasing a chicken". But we
can't. We don't know how we do what is, in some ways, the SIMPLEST of
our functions -- perceiving the world. We don't know how and why we
dream, where the imagery that we see comes from in a dream or what
purpose it serves, exactly. This and many other phenomena demonstrate
that we DO NOT ACCESS MOST OF OUR PROCESSING directly. The subconscious
is the processing that goes on beneath our conscious "user interface"
level.
Like a user interface, the conscious DOES affect the subconscious --
its operations depend on the subconscious to work, and the subconscious
relies on the inputs of the conscious to properly perform its functions.
In the case of real roleplaying games, or of authors who work in the
"dramatist" method of writing, the interface is at least partially
emulating the thoughts and impulses of different people -- the
characters being played or written -- and sometimes these characters
resonate with elements of the person's subconscious, parts of their
personality over which they have only limited conscious control, and so
on; this means that sometimes the subconscious can provide output to the
conscious that isn't what the conscious was expecting.
Thus, the character does something that the conscious author did not
expect.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338750 is a reply to message #338740] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 11:32 |
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Originally posted by: Bobbie Sellers
On 03/04/2017 12:49 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/03/2017 10:05 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> Baloney. Here is one evidence of a brain that you
>> are only conscious of when you upset it.
>> < https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201111/your-backup- brain>
>>
> This article merely says there are neurons that are not physically
> located in your brain.
>
> It also does not say anything about anything, being "beyond the
> intellect," (which is what you guys seems to be arguing for), it merely
> says that some of it is not physically located in the brain.
No it outside your intellect but the brain controls bodily
functions to keep you alive and regardless of how highly you regard
your intellect it is just a layer on top of the keeping alive area.
In order to keep you alive the brain part, inaccessible to
your intellect will observe and attempt to integrate observations
into its world view.
Think about this: A noise wakes you in the middle of the
night. You were asleep but the unconscious continues its observation
and if the noise seems something that the conscious mind should deal
with it wakes you up.
Awake you evaluate the threat if any and your unconscious
may let you go back to sleep.
>
>> Not only that but the pre-conscious mind is just what you
>> don't need to know right now. The sub-conscious is always on and
>> observing, and cogitating and may make decisions for you based on
>> matters your busy talky, typing mind has ignored.
>
> Even if part of what influences behavior is locateed in the gut, that is
> still part of the body and completely physical and not some weird
> ethereal outside force that you guys seem to be arguing for. I am still
> waiting for evidence of that.
>>
>> snip
>>
>>> Again, I say that the characters are not thinking beings and can't
>>> "decide to do" anything.
No but remember the simulation of the character is running in
your brain as you read or write and if you have imposed restrictions in
behavior on the character unconsciously then the character will run
with those restrictions.
>>
>> The programs that run on your computer are not conscious either
>> but if properly designed refuse to do things that are outside their
>> area of competence.
>
> If I write a program to calculate whether a number between 1 and 1000 is
> prime, then try to use it calculate if 1001, it merely is incapable of
> doing so, it does not "refuse" to do so.
>
> If I put some some sort of learning AI into the program, it may be able
> to learn in general method for calculating if a number is prime from an
> algorithm that calculates only the primes between 1 and 1000, and will
> thus be able to do so.
>
> I don't know enough about the state of AI to know if such a program can
> be written, but if I write a standard program that is capable of just
> calculating if 1..1000 is prime, then want to add this "learning
> capability, I can.
>
> If I want to change it to calculating the square of the number, I can do
> that. In other words what it does is totally in my control.
>
> The program is not "refusing to cooperate" or "cooperating with" the
> programmer.
>
> The characters in stories are not conscious either
>> but good characters (in the sense of interesting) are simulated as
>> subroutines in the brain. If they lack the motivation for a switch
>> in loyalties it will not happen. When we read the character in a story
>> we if the character is interesting will simulate the possible
>> actions.
>> I.e. Superman(Kal-el, Clark Kent) will always be the good
>> guy unless he encounters some nasty Kryptonite. "D'Artagnan, Athos,
>> Aramis and Porthos" will always win sword fights especially against
>> the Cardinal's men and will be good guys. The authors invest the
>> characters with very limited but real autonomy so that when a reader
>> encounters the character it will be self-consistent. This may not
>> be done consciously though with an experienced and skilled writer
>> he will do a lot of conscious work on the character.
>>
> I can make a story where Superman turns into a bad guy that uses his
> powers to take over and rule the world. Whether this heel turn is
> believable or "just happens" for no apparent reason is up to my skill as
> an author, but I have complete control over what Superman (at least the
> Superman in my story) does.
Actually the creators started with a villainous Superman and
he did not sell to the publishers. The original was a bald telepath
who wanted to dominate humanity. More like Lex Luthor and if you
were to come up with a real Kryptonian person likely he would be
more like a merger of Kal-El and Lex Luthor. Kal barely has free
will in his 2D world and neither does Lex.
>
> If there were an actual person (or Kryptonian or whatever) named
> Superman, his actions would be determined by his "nature," but the
> actions of a character in a story I write is determined 100% by me,
> whether or not those actions do or don't make sense for the character.
Only if you want to write badly or like a comic strip plotter.
>
> If I want him to lose against Goku, that is what happens, if I want him
> to win against Goku, that is what happens. If there were a "real Goku,"
> I have no idea who would win in a real fight, but if I wrote a story
> about a fight between Goku and Superman, the winner would be whoever I
> want it to.
>
> In fact, I think what would be in their "nature" is that they might
> continue to have sparring sessions, but they team up to protect the
> earth from bad guys like Buu and Frieza and whoever, but that is a
> decision on my part of what their nature is, not based on what their
> nature "really" is, whatever that means in the first place.
I think that is a likely outcome for both. They would fight
each other in cataclysmic battles to keep their respective skills
honed. Then at a threat of cosmic magnitude they would both turn
to defeating the threat. Unless the nasty Kryptonite shows up.
>
>> I once investigated what was meant by "the soul" and the truth is
>> that the ancients decided to call whatever gave them life that. It
>> was identified with the breath and the mysterious beating of the heart
>> as well as the agency that the person manifested. Sometime it was
>> identified with the human form.
>>
> There is no evidence that any thing remotely like the soul exists, or at
> least I am stil waiting for some. The article you cited says that there
> are neurons that influence behavior and decisions that are physically
> outside the brain, it does not say anything about a "soul" or that there
> is something nonphysical (or supernatural, as far as I am concerned
> "nonphysical" and "supernatural" mean pretty much the same thing)
> influencing behavior.
Of course not but I am not arguing for or even against the idea
of "soul". I am reporting the result of my examination of translations
of ancient writings as well as the reading of Freud and Jung. I read
Freud while I was in HS and Jung later in life.
Tell me where do you stand on metaphor?
bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338753 is a reply to message #338742] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 14:17 |
David Johnston
Messages: 220
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>
> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>
> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players might be
> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in the
> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>
I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
never heard of it.
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338760 is a reply to message #338753] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 14:51 |
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Originally posted by: Bobbie Sellers
On 03/04/2017 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
>>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>>
>> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
>> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
>> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
>> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>>
>> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players might be
>> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in the
>> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
>> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>>
>
> I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
> never heard of it.
I am 79+ yoa and have never been in a place and time where I
could have played D & D. It sounded like good clean fun to me when the
religious right thought it was pagan and witchcraft.
But when I had my Commodore 128/64 running CP/M 2.2 I played
a game that was nothing but a ungraphical dungeon crawl with a single
store at the top where you had to buy rope.
Later on the Amiga I endlessly played Angband and even cheated
my way to the deepest dungeon to see all the iconified monsters of the
game. I also played it on Windows XP and even on Mageia 5.1. I never
won but due to the changes in systems ended up with a system that has
no Angband but may have some analogous games. Sadly my ability to
sit and focus for the hours required to play much less win is severely
eroded.
bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338762 is a reply to message #338760] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 17:44 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/4/17 2:51 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 03/04/2017 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>>> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>>>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
>>>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>>>
>>> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
>>> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
>>> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
>>> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>>>
>>> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players might be
>>> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in the
>>> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
>>> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>>>
>>
>> I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
>> never heard of it.
>
> I am 79+ yoa and have never been in a place and time where I
> could have played D & D.
You can play it in PBEM games if nothing else. Where are you that
you've never had the opportunity?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338763 is a reply to message #338762] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 18:10 |
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Originally posted by: Bobbie Sellers
On 03/04/2017 02:44 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/4/17 2:51 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 03/04/2017 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>>>> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> > I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>>>> > know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON
>>>> > (and
>>>> > vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>>> >
>>>> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
>>>> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
>>>> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
>>>> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>>>>
>>>> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players
>>>> might be
>>>> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in
>>>> the
>>>> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
>>>> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
>>> never heard of it.
>>
>> I am 79+ yoa and have never been in a place and time where I
>> could have played D & D.
>
>
> You can play it in PBEM games if nothing else. Where are you that
> you've never had the opportunity?
>
>
More like where and when.
I did not have much contact with other people with the same
(elite)interests until I got into anime and manga in my mid-sixties
and found the Usenet newsgroups. Some of my early stuff under
"bliss@sf.com" was incredible naive but I kept on reading and finding
stuff to read and watch. From the age of 46 when I got sick with
what is now known to some as Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease
I struggled trying to regain my health and only making myself more ill.
When I heard about D & D was probably in my late 30s. I never
was a member of the groups that were playing it in schools of various
levels.
I was simply not a joiner of those groups and I am in no shape
for the amount of time it takes to play from what I have heard.
The first groups I joined that were not political advocacy
were Commodore and Amiga Users Groups. Presently my main activity
aside from keeping up with manga and reading a lot are hosting a
LUG (Linux User Group) meeting in a coffee shop twice a month. I
provide the latest distributions to people who join us and participate
to a limited degree in the conversations on the SF-LUG mailing list.
Limited because I am not a person with Computer Science skills. When
I was a kid a computer was the numerical and mathematically handy
girl or guy who might get a job with a company or government agencies
mostly calculating tables of one sort or another. I did get some
engineering while in the Navy related to Health and Nuclear physics.
My HS was a rigorous as you could find in California in the 1950s
and I did OK in chemistry and physics but my typing was rotten.
I first heard of Word Processing when it was done on terminals connected
to mainframes. After that I decided if it was possible I would get
a computer that I could work on otherwise the white-out of that era
would have made me ill.
bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338765 is a reply to message #338763] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 18:32 |
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
Messages: 287
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 3/4/17 6:10 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 03/04/2017 02:44 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/4/17 2:51 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 03/04/2017 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>>>> > On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> >> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>>>> >> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON
>>>> >> (and
>>>> >> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>>> >>
>>>> > You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
>>>> > that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
>>>> > 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
>>>> > implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>>>> >
>>>> > If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players
>>>> > might be
>>>> > having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in
>>>> > the
>>>> > game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
>>>> > control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
>>>> never heard of it.
>>>
>>> I am 79+ yoa and have never been in a place and time where I
>>> could have played D & D.
>>
>>
>> You can play it in PBEM games if nothing else. Where are you that
>> you've never had the opportunity?
>>
>>
> More like where and when.
> I did not have much contact with other people with the same
> (elite)interests until I got into anime and manga in my mid-sixties
> and found the Usenet newsgroups. Some of my early stuff under
> "bliss@sf.com" was incredible naive but I kept on reading and finding
> stuff to read and watch. From the age of 46 when I got sick with
> what is now known to some as Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease
> I struggled trying to regain my health and only making myself more ill.
Otherwise known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I know other people with
it. It's very unfun.
> When I heard about D & D was probably in my late 30s. I never
> was a member of the groups that were playing it in schools of various
> levels.
> I was simply not a joiner of those groups and I am in no shape
> for the amount of time it takes to play from what I have heard.
>
Doing it online (PBEM, or Play By Email, or these days I suppose
various web sites) removes a lot of the strenuous stuff, because you
have time to respond to actions that you wouldn't have in a face-to-face
game.
I started running a PBEM D&D campaign in 1977-78, which probably makes
me the first person to ever do so.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338774 is a reply to message #338765] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 22:51 |
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Originally posted by: Bobbie Sellers
On 03/04/2017 03:32 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/4/17 6:10 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>> On 03/04/2017 02:44 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>> On 3/4/17 2:51 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> On 03/04/2017 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> > On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>>>> >> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> >>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously
>>>> >>> not
>>>> >>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON
>>>> >>> (and
>>>> >>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>>> >>>
>>>> >> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
>>>> >> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
>>>> >> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program
>>>> >> written to
>>>> >> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>>>> >>
>>>> >> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players
>>>> >> might be
>>>> >> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in
>>>> >> the
>>>> >> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
>>>> >> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
>>>> > never heard of it.
>>>>
>>>> I am 79+ yoa and have never been in a place and time where I
>>>> could have played D & D.
>>>
>>>
>>> You can play it in PBEM games if nothing else. Where are you that
>>> you've never had the opportunity?
>>>
>>>
>> More like where and when.
>> I did not have much contact with other people with the same
>> (elite)interests until I got into anime and manga in my mid-sixties
>> and found the Usenet newsgroups. Some of my early stuff under
>> "bliss@sf.com" was incredible naive but I kept on reading and finding
>> stuff to read and watch. From the age of 46 when I got sick with
>> what is now known to some as Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease
>> I struggled trying to regain my health and only making myself more ill.
>
> Otherwise known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I know other people
> with it. It's very unfun.
Even Big Brother agrees, "Double Plus Ungood"
>
>
>> When I heard about D & D was probably in my late 30s. I never
>> was a member of the groups that were playing it in schools of various
>> levels.
>> I was simply not a joiner of those groups and I am in no shape
>> for the amount of time it takes to play from what I have heard.
>>
>
>
> Doing it online (PBEM, or Play By Email, or these days I suppose
> various web sites) removes a lot of the strenuous stuff, because you
> have time to respond to actions that you wouldn't have in a face-to-face
> game.
I cannot effectively play turn by turn games aside from Klondike
and KMahjongg.
>
> I started running a PBEM D&D campaign in 1977-78, which probably
> makes me the first person to ever do so.
Congratulations on your originating PBEM.
I am afraid that playing it would leave me little time to post to
rec.arts.manga, anime.misc and a few Linux newsgroups much less
to pop-out a column for CUCUG every month.
bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338775 is a reply to message #338774] |
Sat, 04 March 2017 23:34 |
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Originally posted by: Bobbie Sellers
On 03/04/2017 07:51 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 03/04/2017 03:32 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/4/17 6:10 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>> On 03/04/2017 02:44 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> On 3/4/17 2:51 PM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>>> > On 03/04/2017 11:17 AM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> >> On 3/4/2017 2:14 AM, Brian Christiansen wrote:
>>>> >>> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> >>>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously
>>>> >>>> not
>>>> >>>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON
>>>> >>>> (and
>>>> >>>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
>>>> >>> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
>>>> >>> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program
>>>> >>> written to
>>>> >>> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players
>>>> >>> might be
>>>> >>> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in
>>>> >>> the
>>>> >>> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
>>>> >>> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> I realize not everyone has played D&D, but I'm startled that you've
>>>> >> never heard of it.
>>>> >
>>>> > I am 79+ yoa and have never been in a place and time where I
>>>> > could have played D & D.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You can play it in PBEM games if nothing else. Where are you that
>>>> you've never had the opportunity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> More like where and when.
>>> I did not have much contact with other people with the same
>>> (elite)interests until I got into anime and manga in my mid-sixties
>>> and found the Usenet newsgroups. Some of my early stuff under
>>> "bliss@sf.com" was incredible naive but I kept on reading and finding
>>> stuff to read and watch. From the age of 46 when I got sick with
>>> what is now known to some as Systemic Exertional Intolerance Disease
>>> I struggled trying to regain my health and only making myself more ill.
>>
>> Otherwise known as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome. I know other people
>> with it. It's very unfun.
>
> Even Big Brother agrees, "Double Plus Ungood"
>>
>>
>>> When I heard about D & D was probably in my late 30s. I never
>>> was a member of the groups that were playing it in schools of various
>>> levels.
>>> I was simply not a joiner of those groups and I am in no shape
>>> for the amount of time it takes to play from what I have heard.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Doing it online (PBEM, or Play By Email, or these days I suppose
>> various web sites) removes a lot of the strenuous stuff, because you
>> have time to respond to actions that you wouldn't have in a face-to-face
>> game.
>
> I cannot effectively play turn by turn games aside from Klondike
> and KMahjongg.
>
>>
>> I started running a PBEM D&D campaign in 1977-78, which probably
>> makes me the first person to ever do so.
>
> Congratulations on your originating PBEM.
>
> I am afraid that playing it would leave me little time to post to
> rec.arts.manga, anime.misc and a few Linux newsgroups much less
> to pop-out a column for CUCUG every month.
>
> bliss
>
I forgot to say that I got into anime and manga because I have
to lie down for a couple hours or more in the afternoon and a anime
disk used to be the means of keeping myself quiet and calm aside from
laughing hard,
bliss
--
bliss dash SF 4 ever at dslextreme dot com
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| Re: Bad guys turning into good guys, something I need to say about my mail. [message #338806 is a reply to message #338742] |
Sun, 05 March 2017 22:27 |
Chris Buckley
Messages: 56
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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On 2017-03-04, Brian Christiansen <brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 03/03/2017 07:12 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> I said a roleplaying game. Not a video game. Do you seriously not
>> know that the "roleplaying games" that video games do are BASED ON (and
>> vastly inferior imitations of) real RPGs?
>>
> You can quibble all day long about what to call it, but the point is
> that either one is a computer program, and what happens in either is
> 100% determined by the subroutines/functions of the program written to
> implement it, there is no entity there to have "crisis of faith."
>
> If you are playing a multi-player game, one of the real players might be
> having a "crisis of faith" in real life and somehow reflects that in the
> game, but in the character that is generated by computer that he has
> control over is not, it is just a bunch of pixels on the screen.
Quibble??? There is no computer program; there is no screen; there
is no computer; there are no subroutines/functions. Do you understand
what "role-playing" means?
Chris
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