| How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #335372] |
Mon, 09 January 2017 00:36  |
|
|
Originally posted by: sunacreproperties
Hello everyone,
I'm kind of new to my Apple IIe platinum, I'm 40, and always wanted to have an apple as a kid,,, like everyone,,, but I only just got one a few years ago,, when I was able to get an entire system for ~$200 on ebay.
SETUP:
-I have a laptop running windows 10, with a USB to RS232 cable connected to the super serial card on the iie
-ADTpro is working, it creates (two) 800k Virtual Drives named Virtual.po, and Virtual2.po.
-VSDRIVE on the IIe, and can see the Virtual Drives, on my WIN10 laptop.
QUESTION 1:
Just wondering how to use ciderpress, to make these volumes larger?? I have heard the biggest you can go is 32MB, but I'd gladly go larger if that's possible. I've read the tutorial, but still can't figure it out :/
Need some ELI5 instructions if possible :)
QUESTION 2:
Can I store .DSK images on the Volumes after I've expanded them, and boot the IIe from them?
PS.
I may just buy one of the disk emulators out there, as I'm pretty sure you can boot from any .DSK image you want with one, and they hold gigabytes of data.
Example here: http://www.bigmessowires.com/
Thanks again. :)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #335386 is a reply to message #335372] |
Mon, 09 January 2017 09:51  |
David Schmidt
Messages: 993
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 1/9/2017 12:36 AM, sunacreproperties@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm kind of new to my Apple IIe platinum, I'm 40, and always wanted to have an apple as a kid,,, like everyone,,, but I only just got one a few years ago,, when I was able to get an entire system for ~$200 on ebay.
It's nice to have disposable income, isn't it? Some childhood dreams
are less expensive than others. ;-)
> -ADTpro is working, it creates (two) 800k Virtual Drives named Virtual.po, and Virtual2.po.
> g
> -VSDRIVE on the IIe, and can see the Virtual Drives, on my WIN10 laptop.
>
> QUESTION 1:
> Just wondering how to use ciderpress, to make these volumes larger?? I have heard the biggest you can go is 32MB, but I'd gladly go larger if that's possible. I've read the tutorial, but still can't figure it out :/
Open CiderPress
* File->New->Disk Image
* Tick ProDOS [it is ticked by default] under "Filesystem"
* Tick "32MB (largest ProDOS volume)" under "New disk size"
* Click OK
* Pick the destination of your new disk image; you can name it
Virtual.po and drop it right on top of where the old 800k version was if
the ADTPro server is down at the moment
> QUESTION 2:
> Can I store .DSK images on the Volumes after I've expanded them, and boot the IIe from them?
No. You can't go to that level of indirection with ADTPro Virtual Drive.
> PS.
> I may just buy one of the disk emulators out there, as I'm pretty sure you can boot from any .DSK image you want with one, and they hold gigabytes of data.
> Example here: http://www.bigmessowires.com/
A CFFA300 is the most versatile out there, but not readily available.
But any hardware solution is going to be ultimately better than the
virtual serial one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336104 is a reply to message #335386] |
Thu, 19 January 2017 19:37 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Anyone
The floppy emu came, but it plugs into the disk II controller card. That's created a new problem, because I don't think the disk II card, can read anything larger than a disk ii format (140k)
I dropped the 32MB .po onto it, but the platinum isn't reading it.
I may have to go for the CFA3000 card, (or find the Liron / SuperDrive card... To plug the emu into...
Is there anyway (through cider-press?) to create and feed a disk larger than 140kb to a disk ii controller card....
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336123 is a reply to message #336104] |
Fri, 20 January 2017 11:15 |
David Schmidt
Messages: 993
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On 1/19/2017 7:37 PM, Anyone wrote:
> [...]
> Is there anyway (through cider-press?) to create and feed a disk larger than 140kb to a disk ii controller card....
Nope. That's all that card is trained to understand. Well, with some
trickery, it could do goofy things like 18 sectors and 40 tracks and
whatnot, but you're not going to get it to understand 32MB.
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336126 is a reply to message #336104] |
Fri, 20 January 2017 12:13 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Don Bruder
In article <c820da6c-65f3-44ed-b514-92e1099b3368@googlegroups.com>,
Anyone <sunacreproperties@gmail.com> wrote:
> The floppy emu came, but it plugs into the disk II controller card. That's
> created a new problem, because I don't think the disk II card, can read
> anything larger than a disk ii format (140k)
Correct. Without doing some tricksy things, a Disk II card simply
doesn't have the first clue how to cope with anything beyond what will
fit in the standard 140K disk format. Without the trickery, anything
beyond 140K just doesn't exist, at least, so far as the card is
concerned. With it, you can shoehorn another 2-3 tracks worth of data
into the space it can "see", but again, beyond that limit, the card has
no idea that there's anything there to even be SEEN, never mind accessed.
> I dropped the 32MB .po onto it, but the platinum isn't reading it.
There's a surprise... NOT! :)
> I may have to go for the CFA3000 card, (or find the Liron / SuperDrive
> card... To plug the emu into...
CFA3K *MIGHT* be able to cope (I simply don't know enough about the
beast to say one way or the other - you pays yer nickel, you takes yer
chances) but the Liron/Superdrive cards will have exactly the same
problems as a Disk II card, for exactly the same reasons, just with a
bigger "can work with" number. Bigger, yes, but *NOWHERE NEAR* 32 megs
worth of "bigger".
> Is there anyway (through cider-press?) to create and feed a disk larger than
> 140kb to a disk ii controller card....
Not without what would amount to a total "brain transplant" for the
card. You can tweak some things to sneak in an extra few tracks worth of
data, but you're never going to get it anywhere near comprehending 32
megs. That just plain ain't gonna happen no matter what you do. (short
of designing a brand new card and the firmware to run it)
--
Brought to you by the letter K and the number .357
Security provided by Horace S. & Dan W.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336166 is a reply to message #336126] |
Sat, 21 January 2017 08:28 |
|
|
Originally posted by: Delfs
As I recall the disk ii controller is pretty dumb. It has not limits not imposed by the attached hardware, media, and controlling OS. Apple Ii drives themselves have a physical limit of about 36 tracks due to the size of the head, 3rd party drives did 40. Swap the head for a half width and you could get 80 tracks on a high density floppy disk. Because sectors are software derived, you could have 0-? on any given track, some software fast loads used an entire track for one sector for speed loading.
The mechanisms for actually using the drive were dumb, move head out a step, move head in a step, begin reading data, begun writing a byte. All required specific timing to match the drive mechanisms and speed of the CPU.
Therefor I suggest one could feed a large number of tracks, sector lengths, and media using a disk ii controller, limited only by the timing required and media format necessary to latch a byte into the disk ii controller and your programming and tinkering skills to create a working mechanism with those parameters. One could create a hard drive sized mechanism, but the speed is much too fast for the card to catch it all. But programmatically with an image, speed would not be an issue.
Just saying. :)
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336170 is a reply to message #336166] |
Sat, 21 January 2017 14:31 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Delfs <eeastman@gmail.com> wrote:
> As I recall the disk ii controller is pretty dumb. It has not limits not
> imposed by the attached hardware, media, and controlling OS. Apple Ii
> drives themselves have a physical limit of about 36 tracks due to the
> size of the head, 3rd party drives did 40. Swap the head for a half
> width and you could get 80 tracks on a high density floppy disk. Because
> sectors are software derived, you could have 0-? on any given track, some
> software fast loads used an entire track for one sector for speed loading.
> The mechanisms for actually using the drive were dumb, move head out a
> step, move head in a step, begin reading data, begun writing a byte. All
> required specific timing to match the drive mechanisms and speed of the CPU.
> Therefor I suggest one could feed a large number of tracks, sector
> lengths, and media using a disk ii controller, limited only by the timing
> required and media format necessary to latch a byte into the disk ii
> controller and your programming and tinkering skills to create a working
> mechanism with those parameters. One could create a hard drive sized
> mechanism, but the speed is much too fast for the card to catch it all.
> But programmatically with an image, speed would not be an issue.
> Just saying. :)
You are correct, the size limitations of devices controlled by the Disk ][
Controller are in its driver, RWTS, not the hardware.
This is a mostly moot point, since RWTS is part of virtually all Apple II
operating systems, and although there have been many small modifications
(usually for copy protection), a wholesale rewrite to support larger
devices seems unlikely, particularly given its speed limitations.
In fact, one could argue that the smartport protocols are the
Apple-supported evolution of the Disk ][ Controller interface.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336171 is a reply to message #336170] |
Sat, 21 January 2017 16:47 |
Rob Justice
Messages: 98
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
I have wondered if the disk II Controller HW with the appropriate software could support a smartport device. I think it might fail to keep in sync with the received bitstream due to the large number of bytes sent after the sync bytes in the smartport data packets.
The IWM has an aschronous mode, and I think this is what is used to solve this problem.
/Rob
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336181 is a reply to message #336170] |
Sun, 22 January 2017 03:29 |
mdj
Messages: 301
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sunday, 22 January 2017 05:31:11 UTC+10, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> In fact, one could argue that the smartport protocols are the
> Apple-supported evolution of the Disk ][ Controller interface.
Exactly. Phase lines and WRPROT are repurposed as out of band device enable and flow control, enabling communication with other devices without engaging the disk ][ compatible devices that may be connected.
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336182 is a reply to message #336171] |
Sun, 22 January 2017 03:34 |
mdj
Messages: 301
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
On Sunday, 22 January 2017 07:47:43 UTC+10, Rob Justice wrote:
> I have wondered if the disk II Controller HW with the appropriate software could support a smartport device. I think it might fail to keep in sync with the received bitstream due to the large number of bytes sent after the sync bytes in the smartport data packets.
>
> The IWM has an aschronous mode, and I think this is what is used to solve this problem.
It sounds plausible, but you'd think if it was then someone would've made a SmartPort card for the IIe that was just the necessary firmware; a much cheaper alternative to the Liron card that was used to control the UniDisk 3.5"
Matt
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336183 is a reply to message #336171] |
Sun, 22 January 2017 10:55 |
|
|
Originally posted by: John Brooks
On Saturday, January 21, 2017 at 1:47:43 PM UTC-8, Rob Justice wrote:
> I have wondered if the disk II Controller HW with the appropriate software could support a smartport device. I think it might fail to keep in sync with the received bitstream due to the large number of bytes sent after the sync bytes in the smartport data packets.
>
> The IWM has an aschronous mode, and I think this is what is used to solve this problem.
>
> /Rob
The smartport protocol uses a simple encoding with 7 data bits transmitted per 8 bits sent, or 7&1 encoding. I don't think there's much risk of losing sync between devices like with GCR encoding on a track.
The more likely problem is whether the smartport device would allow communication with the Disk II controller at 4us bit cells since smartport was designed to use the faster 2us bit cell rate of the IWM & 3.5" Sony drives.
As far as I know, the smartport encoding and handshaking is done in software, so in theory, any Disk II controller should be able to carry the protocol, just at the slower 4us bit speed.
-JB
twitter: @JBrooksBSI
|
|
|
|
| Re: How do I create a 32MB Volume in ciderpress? [message #336202 is a reply to message #336183] |
Sun, 22 January 2017 21:45 |
Rob Justice
Messages: 98
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
On Monday, January 23, 2017 at 2:55:57 AM UTC+11, John Brooks wrote:
> The smartport protocol uses a simple encoding with 7 data bits transmitted per 8 bits sent, or 7&1 encoding. I don't think there's much risk of losing sync between devices like with GCR encoding on a track.
>
> The more likely problem is whether the smartport device would allow communication with the Disk II controller at 4us bit cells since smartport was designed to use the faster 2us bit cell rate of the IWM & 3.5" Sony drives.
>
> As far as I know, the smartport encoding and handshaking is done in software, so in theory, any Disk II controller should be able to carry the protocol, just at the slower 4us bit speed.
>
> -JB
> twitter: @JBrooksBSI
It is using 4us bit cells for the smartport data transmission. Your right though, it could be driving it at the double speed rate on the IIgs and get better throughput if the smartport device supported it. I think the SPVHD that Cedric devolped mention this double speed support.
With the 512 byte data packets, it would be approaching nearly 600 bytes long after the sync bytes. I suppose compared to some of the expanded disk formats used for apple floppies, this should not really be a problem then. (your better to comment on this than me..)
/Rob
|
|
|
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
