| LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334808] |
Wed, 28 December 2016 21:53  |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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Now I am having even more problems with my LC 520. First off, I thought
that my internal HD was going. When the machine would start up, the drive
would spin up for a few seconds, rev down and up again, and then finally
stop spinning all together. I thought this was the issue, so I swapped it
for another internal SCSI. This worked fine last night. This evening, while
working on it, the exact same thing happened with the new drive. Now I do
not think it is the drive. I will need real help from someone familiar with
the power supply.analog board, I think. This may indeed be the area where
the issue is, because when I adjust one of the what looks to be tiny
potentiometers labeled "PP7", the drive tries to spin up again, yet fails.
Probably there is some bad component in there, but I have no idea what to
look for.
Anyone at all have any idea, or who I might turn to?
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334811 is a reply to message #334808] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 03:42  |
Jason Johnson
Messages: 131
Registered: August 2012
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is the motherboard recapped? (new capacitors?)? if not thats first. Needs cap goo washed off and dried during the process. After that you can start really troubleshooting.
________________________________
From: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com> on behalf of John-Robert La Porta <johnrlaporta@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2016 6:53:54 PM
To: Vintage Macs
Subject: LC 520 - Yet more issues....
Now I am having even more problems with my LC 520. First off, I thought that my internal HD was going. When the machine would start up, the drive would spin up for a few seconds, rev down and up again, and then finally stop spinning all together. I thought this was the issue, so I swapped it for another internal SCSI. This worked fine last night. This evening, while working on it, the exact same thing happened with the new drive. Now I do not think it is the drive. I will need real help from someone familiar with the power supply.analog board, I think. This may indeed be the area where the issue is, because when I adjust one of the what looks to be tiny potentiometers labeled "PP7", the drive tries to spin up again, yet fails. Probably there is some bad component in there, but I have no idea what to look for.
Anyone at all have any idea, or who I might turn to?
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334816 is a reply to message #334808] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 05:09 |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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MB was just freshly re-capped. Entire machine works otherwise: able to
start from a floppy and the CD drive works just fine.
On Wednesday, December 28, 2016 at 9:53:54 PM UTC-5, John-Robert La Porta
wrote:
>
> Now I am having even more problems with my LC 520. First off, I thought
> that my internal HD was going. When the machine would start up, the drive
> would spin up for a few seconds, rev down and up again, and then finally
> stop spinning all together. I thought this was the issue, so I swapped it
> for another internal SCSI. This worked fine last night. This evening, while
> working on it, the exact same thing happened with the new drive. Now I do
> not think it is the drive. I will need real help from someone familiar with
> the power supply.analog board, I think. This may indeed be the area where
> the issue is, because when I adjust one of the what looks to be tiny
> potentiometers labeled "PP7", the drive tries to spin up again, yet fails.
> Probably there is some bad component in there, but I have no idea what to
> look for.
>
> Anyone at all have any idea, or who I might turn to?
>
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334833 is a reply to message #334832] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 11:41 |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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That battery is brand new, should be just fine and I will make sure to
check it this evening. I will remark that this machine has been in storage
for a good 7+ years or so, and needed the re-capping as it would not turn
on at all. There was no damage to traces that could be found and I cleaned
the entire board before putting it back into service. My next question is:
is there a possibility that some caps or something else in the power supply
could be going bad? Everything else works fine, so I'm not sure...
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:58:15 AM UTC-5, flags wrote:
>
> On 12/29/16 2:42 AM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>> is the motherboard recapped? (new capacitors?)? if not thats first.
>> Needs cap goo washed off and dried during the process. After that you
>> can start really troubleshooting.
>>
>> *From:* vintag...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> <
> vintag...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> on
>
>
> How is the battery voltage?
>
>
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334868 is a reply to message #334833] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 16:10 |
Notgoing Totellyou
Messages: 284
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yeah the ab's on those need caps bad.... the output filter side
always has leakers at the base.
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:41 AM, John-Robert La Porta
<johnrlaporta@gmail.com> wrote:
> That battery is brand new, should be just fine and I will make sure to check
> it this evening. I will remark that this machine has been in storage for a
> good 7+ years or so, and needed the re-capping as it would not turn on at
> all. There was no damage to traces that could be found and I cleaned the
> entire board before putting it back into service. My next question is: is
> there a possibility that some caps or something else in the power supply
> could be going bad? Everything else works fine, so I'm not sure...
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:58:15 AM UTC-5, flags wrote:
>>
>> On 12/29/16 2:42 AM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>>> is the motherboard recapped? (new capacitors?)? if not thats first.
>>> Needs cap goo washed off and dried during the process. After that you
>>> can start really troubleshooting.
>>>
>>> *From:* vintag...@googlegroups.com <vintag...@googlegroups.com> on
>>
>>
>> How is the battery voltage?
>>
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334877 is a reply to message #334868] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 17:38 |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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Anything that might cause the machine to work fine, but not power the HD
correctly to be able to spin up?
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 4:10:47 PM UTC-5, Notgoing Totellyou
wrote:
>
> yeah the ab's on those need caps bad.... the output filter side
> always has leakers at the base.
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:41 AM, John-Robert La Porta
> <johnrl...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>> That battery is brand new, should be just fine and I will make sure to
> check
>> it this evening. I will remark that this machine has been in storage for
> a
>> good 7+ years or so, and needed the re-capping as it would not turn on
> at
>> all. There was no damage to traces that could be found and I cleaned the
>> entire board before putting it back into service. My next question is:
> is
>> there a possibility that some caps or something else in the power supply
>> could be going bad? Everything else works fine, so I'm not sure...
>>
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:58:15 AM UTC-5, flags wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/29/16 2:42 AM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>>>> is the motherboard recapped? (new capacitors?)? if not thats first.
>>>> Needs cap goo washed off and dried during the process. After that
> you
>>>> can start really troubleshooting.
>>>>
>>>> *From:* vintag...@googlegroups.com <vintag...@googlegroups.com> on
>>>
>>>
>>> How is the battery voltage?
>>>
>> --
>> --
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> --
> Charles
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334878 is a reply to message #334877] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 17:54 |
Jonathan Morton
Messages: 188
Registered: January 2013
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Senior Member |
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> On 30 Dec, 2016, at 00:38, John-Robert La Porta <johnrlaporta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anything that might cause the machine to work fine, but not power the HD correctly to be able to spin up?
HDD motors are normally powered from the 12V line. In old computers everything else of note is on the 5V or 3.3V lines. It’s entirely plausible for the 12V line to fail while the others still work.
- Jonathan Morton
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334879 is a reply to message #334878] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 18:05 |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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Jon, thank you very much for that...I was unaware of how that works. DO you
have any idea and/or way for me to actually trace down that line and
associated components?
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:54:28 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Morton wrote:
>
>
>> On 30 Dec, 2016, at 00:38, John-Robert La Porta <johnrl...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>>
>> Anything that might cause the machine to work fine, but not power the HD
> correctly to be able to spin up?
>
> HDD motors are normally powered from the 12V line. In old computers
> everything else of note is on the 5V or 3.3V lines. It’s entirely
> plausible for the 12V line to fail while the others still work.
>
> - Jonathan Morton
>
>
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334887 is a reply to message #334877] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 19:19 |
Notgoing Totellyou
Messages: 284
Registered: December 2012
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That's probably just a bad hard drive the only way to tell for sure will be
to pull it out and try to another Mac
On Dec 29, 2016 5:38 PM, "John-Robert La Porta" <johnrlaporta@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Anything that might cause the machine to work fine, but not power the HD
> correctly to be able to spin up?
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 4:10:47 PM UTC-5, Notgoing Totellyou
> wrote:
>>
>> yeah the ab's on those need caps bad.... the output filter side
>> always has leakers at the base.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:41 AM, John-Robert La Porta
>> <johnrl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> That battery is brand new, should be just fine and I will make sure to
>> check
>>> it this evening. I will remark that this machine has been in storage
>> for a
>>> good 7+ years or so, and needed the re-capping as it would not turn on
>> at
>>> all. There was no damage to traces that could be found and I cleaned
>> the
>>> entire board before putting it back into service. My next question is:
>> is
>>> there a possibility that some caps or something else in the power
>> supply
>>> could be going bad? Everything else works fine, so I'm not sure...
>>>
>>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:58:15 AM UTC-5, flags wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/29/16 2:42 AM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>>>> > is the motherboard recapped? (new capacitors?)? if not thats first.
>>>> > Needs cap goo washed off and dried during the process. After that
>> you
>>>> > can start really troubleshooting.
>>>> >
>>>> > *From:* vintag...@googlegroups.com <vintag...@googlegroups.com> on
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> How is the battery voltage?
>>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> -----
>>> You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs
>>> group.
>>> The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and
>> our
>>> netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Charles
>>
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334888 is a reply to message #334887] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 19:21 |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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Already tried another HD in the bay, the exact same thing happens.
On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 7:19:44 PM UTC-5, Notgoing Totellyou
wrote:
>
> That's probably just a bad hard drive the only way to tell for sure will
> be to pull it out and try to another Mac
>
> On Dec 29, 2016 5:38 PM, "John-Robert La Porta" <johnrl...@gmail.com
> <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> Anything that might cause the machine to work fine, but not power the HD
>> correctly to be able to spin up?
>>
>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 4:10:47 PM UTC-5, Notgoing Totellyou
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> yeah the ab's on those need caps bad.... the output filter side
>>> always has leakers at the base.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 11:41 AM, John-Robert La Porta
>>> <johnrl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> That battery is brand new, should be just fine and I will make sure to
>>> check
>>>> it this evening. I will remark that this machine has been in storage
>>> for a
>>>> good 7+ years or so, and needed the re-capping as it would not turn on
>>> at
>>>> all. There was no damage to traces that could be found and I cleaned
>>> the
>>>> entire board before putting it back into service. My next question is:
>>> is
>>>> there a possibility that some caps or something else in the power
>>> supply
>>>> could be going bad? Everything else works fine, so I'm not sure...
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 10:58:15 AM UTC-5, flags wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > On 12/29/16 2:42 AM, Jason Johnson wrote:
>>>> > > is the motherboard recapped? (new capacitors?)? if not thats
>>> first.
>>>> > > Needs cap goo washed off and dried during the process. After
>>> that you
>>>> > > can start really troubleshooting.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > *From:* vintag...@googlegroups.com <vintag...@googlegroups.com> on
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > How is the battery voltage?
>>>> >
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> -----
>>>> You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs
>>>> group.
>>>> The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and
>>> our
>>>> netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
>>>> To post to this group, send email to vintag...@googlegroups.com
>>>> To leave this group, send email to vintage-macs...@googlegroups.com
>>>> For more options, visit this group at
>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/vintage-macs
>>>>
>>>> Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/
>>>> ---
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups
>>>> "Vintage Macs" group.
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>>> an
>>>> email to vintage-macs...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Charles
>>>
>> --
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334889 is a reply to message #334888] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 19:27 |
Dylan McDermond
Messages: 133
Registered: August 2012
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> On Dec 29, 2016, at 4:21 PM, John-Robert La Porta <johnrlaporta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Already tried another HD in the bay, the exact same thing happens.
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 7:19:44 PM UTC-5, Notgoing Totellyou wrote:
> That's probably just a bad hard drive the only way to tell for sure will be to pull it out and try to another Mac
Are they both Quantum LPS drives? All of those are going bad now days. The rubber is literally melting.
What Notgoing Totellyou is suggesting is opposite of what you have done - take your non-functioning drive and test it in a known-good Macintosh.
- Dylan
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334890 is a reply to message #334879] |
Thu, 29 December 2016 19:47 |
The One True Stickman
Messages: 85
Registered: April 2013
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I'd figure out where the yellow HD power wire connects to the analog board
and visually inspect any filter caps (~1000+ uF) in the area. From the
googling I've done and images in the links below it doesn't look like it's
easy to trace without taking the board out of the chassis.
http://appletothecore.me/files/mac_tv_restoration.php
http://www.mactalk.com.au/62/119154-colour-classic-analog-bo ard-repair.html
(This appears to be about the LC 5xx as well...)
The other option - if you don't have a known good HD to swap in as
discussed by Mack & Dylan - is to attach a voltmeter to the 12V rail and
see if it is stable when the HD tries to spin up. If it doesn't you'll see
the voltage dip a bit when the disk tries to go. It's easiest to see on and
analog VOM but a DMM should work as well.
On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 6:05 PM, John-Robert La Porta <
johnrlaporta@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jon, thank you very much for that...I was unaware of how that works. DO
> you have any idea and/or way for me to actually trace down that line and
> associated components?
>
> On Thursday, December 29, 2016 at 5:54:28 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Morton wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On 30 Dec, 2016, at 00:38, John-Robert La Porta <johnrl...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Anything that might cause the machine to work fine, but not power the
>> HD correctly to be able to spin up?
>>
>> HDD motors are normally powered from the 12V line. In old computers
>> everything else of note is on the 5V or 3.3V lines. It’s entirely
>> plausible for the 12V line to fail while the others still work.
>>
>> - Jonathan Morton
>>
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334920 is a reply to message #334898] |
Fri, 30 December 2016 11:15 |
John-Robert La Porta
Messages: 96
Registered: December 2013
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Everyone had the right suspicions: TWO of my HDs had failed, that's where I was thrown off. Thankfully, one of my PowerMac 6100s was nice enough to give up its HD, and that works fine. Many thanks for all of the help. Also, that SCSI to Flash thing is intriguing...I may have to look into that someday.
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334963 is a reply to message #334920] |
Sat, 31 December 2016 01:20 |
vintage-macs
Messages: 425
Registered: April 2014
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You may be able to recover those drives for use. If you have a PC, get a cheap Adaptec 2940 PCI SCSI controller with a boot ROM or BIOS. You'll want one with a 50 pin narrow SCSI connector.
Then you can try the controller's built in low level format on the drives to see if it can revive them. All the data will be lost, but this is a function that cannot be done on a Macintosh. It directly accesses the system in the drives that the factory used to format them. One like this is perfect for the job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/381778922146
Can't do this with IDE, ATAPI or SATA drives - except for one old 80286 motherboard I kept for a long time because its BIOS setup had an IDE low level format utility which worked on drives up to around 8 gigabytes, despite the BIOS being unable to properly use any drives over half a gig. I suspect the reason it quit working was because drive manufacturers "fixed" whatever method that BIOS was using to access the drives' built in low level formatting system. Saved quite a bit of $$$$ with that old board. :)
From: John-Robert La Porta <johnrlaporta@gmail.com>
To: Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues....
Everyone had the right suspicions: TWO of my HDs had failed, that's where I was thrown off. Thankfully, one of my PowerMac 6100s was nice enough to give up its HD, and that works fine. Many thanks for all of the help. Also, that SCSI to Flash thing is intriguing...I may have to look into that someday.
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334967 is a reply to message #334963] |
Sat, 31 December 2016 02:33 |
Dylan McDermond
Messages: 133
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Most of these Quantums have melted rubber on the head assembly bumper.
- Dylan
> On Dec 30, 2016, at 10:20 PM, 'Gregg Eshelman' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> You may be able to recover those drives for use. If you have a PC, get a cheap Adaptec 2940 PCI SCSI controller with a boot ROM or BIOS. You'll want one with a 50 pin narrow SCSI connector.
>
> Then you can try the controller's built in low level format on the drives to see if it can revive them. All the data will be lost, but this is a function that cannot be done on a Macintosh. It directly accesses the system in the drives that the factory used to format them. One like this is perfect for the job. http://www.ebay.com/itm/381778922146
>
> Can't do this with IDE, ATAPI or SATA drives - except for one old 80286 motherboard I kept for a long time because its BIOS setup had an IDE low level format utility which worked on drives up to around 8 gigabytes, despite the BIOS being unable to properly use any drives over half a gig. I suspect the reason it quit working was because drive manufacturers "fixed" whatever method that BIOS was using to access the drives' built in low level formatting system. Saved quite a bit of $$$$ with that old board. :)
>
> From: John-Robert La Porta <johnrlaporta@gmail.com>
> To: Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2016 9:15 AM
> Subject: Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues....
>
> Everyone had the right suspicions: TWO of my HDs had failed, that's where I was thrown off. Thankfully, one of my PowerMac 6100s was nice enough to give up its HD, and that works fine. Many thanks for all of the help. Also, that SCSI to Flash thing is intriguing...I may have to look into that someday.
> --
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334976 is a reply to message #334963] |
Sat, 31 December 2016 07:57 |
Jonathan Morton
Messages: 188
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> On 31 Dec, 2016, at 08:20, 'Gregg Eshelman' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I suspect the reason it quit working was because drive manufacturers "fixed" whatever method that BIOS was using to access the drives' built in low level formatting system.
In fact, it’s because modern drives require special hardware for low-level formatting, which places the stable patterns that the drive relies on to even follow the tracks. The drive itself is physically incapable of the accuracy required to lay them out in the first place.
Generally, the older drives supporting low-level formatting have independent head-position control, not relying on stable marks to find the tracks, and only require low-level format marks to locate sectors. This is only feasible for relatively low areal densities.
- Jonathan Morton
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334998 is a reply to message #334976] |
Sat, 31 December 2016 22:01 |
Charles Lenington[1]
Messages: 16
Registered: October 2016
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On 12/31/16 6:57 AM, Jonathan Morton wrote:
>
>> On 31 Dec, 2016, at 08:20, 'Gregg Eshelman' via Vintage Macs <vintage-macs@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect the reason it quit working was because drive manufacturers "fixed" whatever method that BIOS was using to access the drives' built in low level formatting system.
>
> In fact, it’s because modern drives require special hardware for low-level formatting, which places the stable patterns that the drive relies on to even follow the tracks. The drive itself is physically incapable of the accuracy required to lay them out in the first place.
>
> Generally, the older drives supporting low-level formatting have independent head-position control, not relying on stable marks to find the tracks, and only require low-level format marks to locate sectors. This is only feasible for relatively low areal densities.
>
> - Jonathan Morton
>
Didn't "Hard disk tool kit" and LaCie's "silver lining" (?) low level
format? I think there were a couple more.
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| Re: LC 520 - Yet more issues.... [message #334999 is a reply to message #334808] |
Sat, 31 December 2016 22:30 |
Charles Lenington[1]
Messages: 16
Registered: October 2016
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On 12/28/16 8:53 PM, John-Robert La Porta wrote:
> Now I am having even more problems with my LC 520. First off, I thought
> that my internal HD was going. When the machine would start up, the
John,
I'll go out to my storeroom and see if I have any LC 520 hd pulls here.
if not I'll check storage lockers and if not there, I'll check storage
at my mom's when i make the 60 mile trip Monday.
A few years ago I salvaged some LC 5xx computers. But a fire took out
the shed that most of the parts was in (kids throwing lighted toilet
paper rolls 10 miles away). I think I moved the drives out. A couple of
years ago we had to move another building since the land it was on got
sold. so everything was moved out and then shoved back in, in no order.
I'll look for a LC 520 also for testing.
Charles
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