| Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #328496] |
Sun, 11 September 2016 21:12  |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
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Hi folks,
I used homebrew to install homebrew/games/mame on my machine, which appears to be 0.177, and ran opensnoop to get lists of ROMs needed until it was happy and will run an Apple IIe.
However, it appears that it puts the keyboard into some raw SDL mode, and I can't figure out how to bring up the MAME/MESS UI. I believe on Windows, it would be "scrl lock" or "ins", but neither of those keys exist on my MacBook keyboard.
Has anyone gotten this working before?
Alternatively, does anyone know of a Mac OS emulator that does a really good IIe (enhanced) emulation? I am looking to add IIe / IIe Enhanced support to OpenEmulator, but I need a relatively high-fidelity "ground truth" to test against, since I don't have an actual IIe.
Thanks for your help,
Zellyn
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #328497 is a reply to message #328496] |
Sun, 11 September 2016 21:18  |
Richard Thiebaud
Messages: 222
Registered: May 2013
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On 9/11/2016 9:12 PM, Zellyn wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I used homebrew to install homebrew/games/mame on my machine, which appears to be 0.177, and ran opensnoop to get lists of ROMs needed until it was happy and will run an Apple IIe.
>
> However, it appears that it puts the keyboard into some raw SDL mode, and I can't figure out how to bring up the MAME/MESS UI. I believe on Windows, it would be "scrl lock" or "ins", but neither of those keys exist on my MacBook keyboard.
>
> Has anyone gotten this working before?
>
> Alternatively, does anyone know of a Mac OS emulator that does a really good IIe (enhanced) emulation? I am looking to add IIe / IIe Enhanced support to OpenEmulator, but I need a relatively high-fidelity "ground truth" to test against, since I don't have an actual IIe.
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Zellyn
>
I've very successfully under LInux run Applewin under WINE. It seems
likely that this would work under MacOS. Just a thought.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #328498 is a reply to message #328497] |
Sun, 11 September 2016 21:21 |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 9:18:13 PM UTC-4, Richard Thiebaud wrote:
> I've very successfully under LInux run Applewin under WINE. It seems
> likely that this would work under MacOS. Just a thought.
Oh, it's running quite successfully… I can even play Ancient Legends like this: mame -rompath ~/mame/roms/ apple2ee -flop1 ~/Documents/a2-disks/Ancient\ Legends\ -\ Disk\ 1.dsk -flop2 ~/Documents/a2-disks/Ancient\ Legends\ -\ Disk\ 2.dsk
So I guess as long as I don't want to dynamically switch disks around or change emulation options or anything, it'll work fine.
Zellyn
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #328499 is a reply to message #328496] |
Sun, 11 September 2016 22:04 |
Richard Thiebaud
Messages: 222
Registered: May 2013
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On 9/11/2016 9:12 PM, Zellyn wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> I used homebrew to install homebrew/games/mame on my machine, which appears to be 0.177, and ran opensnoop to get lists of ROMs needed until it was happy and will run an Apple IIe.
>
> However, it appears that it puts the keyboard into some raw SDL mode, and I can't figure out how to bring up the MAME/MESS UI. I believe on Windows, it would be "scrl lock" or "ins", but neither of those keys exist on my MacBook keyboard.
>
> Has anyone gotten this working before?
>
> Alternatively, does anyone know of a Mac OS emulator that does a really good IIe (enhanced) emulation? I am looking to add IIe / IIe Enhanced support to OpenEmulator, but I need a relatively high-fidelity "ground truth" to test against, since I don't have an actual IIe.
>
> Thanks for your help,
>
> Zellyn
>
Virtual ][ (www.virtualii.com/) looks good but it is not free. A full
license is $40.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #328529 is a reply to message #328500] |
Mon, 12 September 2016 09:44 |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 10:37:30 PM UTC-4, Peter Ferrie wrote:
> mame.ini:
> uimodekey SCRLOCK
>
> change it to a key that you have but don't use much (e.g. LEFTBRACKET), and you'll be fine.
Hmmm. That doesn't seem to work either… :-( I can run mame and see that the config change took effect, but it doesn't work while running the emulator.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #328806 is a reply to message #328499] |
Sun, 18 September 2016 13:54 |
Michael AppleWin Debu
Messages: 1262
Registered: March 2013
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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 7:04:44 PM UTC-7, Richard Thiebaud wrote:
> Virtual ][ (www.virtualii.com/) looks good but it is not free. A full
> license is $40.
"Looks" is subjective. Virutal II doesn't support the proper half-pixel shift, and the palette is absolutely horrible, but other then that, yes it is it pretty functional aside from the annoying habit of converting mounted .DSK into its proprietary file format.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on Mac OS X? [message #329981 is a reply to message #328496] |
Tue, 11 October 2016 21:48 |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
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On Sunday, September 11, 2016 at 9:13:00 PM UTC-4, Zellyn wrote:
> However, it appears that it puts the keyboard into some raw SDL mode, and I can't figure out how to bring up the MAME/MESS UI. I believe on Windows, it would be "scrl lock" or "ins", but neither of those keys exist on my MacBook keyboard.
For reference, and future searchability, I accidentally discovered that fn-delete will toggle putting mame into the mode where the keyboard controls can be brought up using "TAB".
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330346 is a reply to message #329980] |
Wed, 12 October 2016 20:02 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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On Wednesday, 12 October 2016 14:46:42 UTC+13, Zellyn wrote:
> Apparently not, since I'm seeing different output from each of them: https://imgur.com/a/XfupM
> In Virtual ][, those dots are present, and flicker (but not if I emulate a II plus, interestingly).
>
> The Mame one is just all weird.
Yeah, MAME looks bad. I submitted my original floating bus routine to MAME
around 14 years ago, so not sure what it's doing now. The code I submitted
(which was also used in AppleWin) just fetches the appropriate video data
byte given a cycle count.
That was just to get some games working that wait for specific video data
by polling softswitches. The next step in properly rendering an image is to
sync the emulated video output with the emulated machine cycles. MAME didn't
do this, but it looks like Virtual II does - and now so does AppleWin.
As I mentioned elsewhere (as documented by Sather) video scanning is
slightly different in the II and //e.
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330354 is a reply to message #330347] |
Wed, 12 October 2016 21:15 |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
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On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 8:03:33 PM UTC-4, sicklittlemonkey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 12 October 2016 14:46:42 UTC+13, Zellyn wrote:
>> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 2:04:50 PM UTC-4, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>>> OpenEmulator and Virtual II perfectly emulate the Apple II hardware!
>>
>> Apparently not, since I'm seeing different output from each of them: https://imgur.com/a/XfupM
>
> Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330355 is a reply to message #330354] |
Wed, 12 October 2016 21:42 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
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Zellyn <zellyn@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 at 8:03:33 PM UTC-4, sicklittlemonkey wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 12 October 2016 14:46:42 UTC+13, Zellyn wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 2:04:50 PM UTC-4, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>>>> OpenEmulator and Virtual II perfectly emulate the Apple II hardware!
>>>
>>> Apparently not, since I'm seeing different output from each of them:
>>> https://imgur.com/a/XfupM
>>
>> Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nick.
>
> https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it
> leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
>
Remember that the color burst, which is the only indication that a
composite signal contains color information, was never intended to switch
on and off rapidly.
Analog monitors typically take several frames to switch. Digital monitors
could do almost anything for a similar number of milliseconds.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330363 is a reply to message #330355] |
Thu, 13 October 2016 00:01 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
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On Thursday, 13 October 2016 14:42:11 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>> Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>>
>> https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it
>> leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
>
> Remember that the color burst, which is the only indication that a
> composite signal contains color information, was never intended to switch
> on and off rapidly.
>
> Analog monitors typically take several frames to switch. Digital monitors
> could do almost anything for a similar number of milliseconds.
Heh, you've said this before and I was about to quote you. ; - )
So yeah, OE is showing the correct behaviour for an analog monitor.
AppleWin shows the same but in colour.
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330390 is a reply to message #330363] |
Thu, 13 October 2016 12:48 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
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sicklittlemonkey <nick.westgate@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, 13 October 2016 14:42:11 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>>> Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>>>
>>> https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it
>>> leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
>>
>> Remember that the color burst, which is the only indication that a
>> composite signal contains color information, was never intended to switch
>> on and off rapidly.
>>
>> Analog monitors typically take several frames to switch. Digital monitors
>> could do almost anything for a similar number of milliseconds.
>
> Heh, you've said this before and I was about to quote you. ; - )
>
> So yeah, OE is showing the correct behaviour for an analog monitor.
>
> AppleWin shows the same but in colour.
>
> Cheers,
> Nick.
>
If a program "resides" in text mode, then momentarily switches into a
graphics mode for a fraction of a frame (small fraction?), an analog
monitor would remain in monochrome mode.
If, on the other hand, a program is in graphics mode almost all the time
and momentarily switches into text mode for fraction(s) of a frame, then an
analog monitor would remain in color mode.
The behavior of an (anachronistic) digital monitor is undefined. Some may
behave like analog monitors, but some may blank the image until a
"consistent" signal is detected. Others might try to track the
"instantaneous" color mode a line at a time (though I've never seen that
behavior).
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330406 is a reply to message #330363] |
Thu, 13 October 2016 16:57 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Thursday, 13 October 2016 17:01:59 UTC+13, sicklittlemonkey wrote:
> So yeah, OE is showing the correct behaviour for an analog monitor.
>
> AppleWin shows the same but in colour.
I should clarify that I meant for Apple II scanning. For Apple //e scanning AppleWin actually shows something in between MAME and OE.
Have you tried MAME in Apple II emulation? It should be different.
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330472 is a reply to message #330390] |
Fri, 14 October 2016 14:23 |
Charlie
Messages: 255
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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On 10/13/2016 12:48 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> sicklittlemonkey<nick.westgate@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thursday, 13 October 2016 14:42:11 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>>> > Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>>>>
>>>> https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it
>>>> leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
>>>
>>> Remember that the color burst, which is the only indication that a
>>> composite signal contains color information, was never intended to switch
>>> on and off rapidly.
>>>
>>> Analog monitors typically take several frames to switch. Digital monitors
>>> could do almost anything for a similar number of milliseconds.
>>
>> Heh, you've said this before and I was about to quote you. ; - )
>>
>> So yeah, OE is showing the correct behaviour for an analog monitor.
>>
>> AppleWin shows the same but in colour.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Nick.
>>
>
> If a program "resides" in text mode, then momentarily switches into a
> graphics mode for a fraction of a frame (small fraction?), an analog
> monitor would remain in monochrome mode.
>
> If, on the other hand, a program is in graphics mode almost all the time
> and momentarily switches into text mode for fraction(s) of a frame, then an
> analog monitor would remain in color mode.
>
> The behavior of an (anachronistic) digital monitor is undefined. Some may
> behave like analog monitors, but some may blank the image until a
> "consistent" signal is detected. Others might try to track the
> "instantaneous" color mode a line at a time (though I've never seen that
> behavior).
For what it's worth, I believe that if you are trying to make an
emulator as true to the Apple II as possible then it should emulate what
the Apple video output signal does and not what some "less than optimum"
monitor was displaying back in the day.
In other words graphics should be in color and text black and white with
no color fringe, even when the two are mixed.
I say "less than optimum" because I had a composite monitor in 1980 that
did a reasonably good job of displaying color in mixed mode with non
color fringed text below.
Charlie
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330474 is a reply to message #330472] |
Fri, 14 October 2016 15:21 |
zellyn
Messages: 173
Registered: April 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 2:21:28 PM UTC-4, Charlie wrote:
> For what it's worth, I believe that if you are trying to make an
> emulator as true to the Apple II as possible then it should emulate what
> the Apple video output signal does and not what some "less than optimum"
> monitor was displaying back in the day.
Well, OpenEmulator in particular also tries to emulate several specific monitors, so perhaps it should behave accurately on each of them :-)
Zellyn
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330477 is a reply to message #330472] |
Fri, 14 October 2016 17:55 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Charlie <charlieDOTd@verEYEzon.net> wrote:
> On 10/13/2016 12:48 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> sicklittlemonkey<nick.westgate@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 13 October 2016 14:42:11 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>>> >> Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>>>> >
>>>> > https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it
>>>> > leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
>>>>
>>>> Remember that the color burst, which is the only indication that a
>>>> composite signal contains color information, was never intended to switch
>>>> on and off rapidly.
>>>>
>>>> Analog monitors typically take several frames to switch. Digital monitors
>>>> could do almost anything for a similar number of milliseconds.
>>>
>>> Heh, you've said this before and I was about to quote you. ; - )
>>>
>>> So yeah, OE is showing the correct behaviour for an analog monitor.
>>>
>>> AppleWin shows the same but in colour.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Nick.
>>>
>>
>> If a program "resides" in text mode, then momentarily switches into a
>> graphics mode for a fraction of a frame (small fraction?), an analog
>> monitor would remain in monochrome mode.
>>
>> If, on the other hand, a program is in graphics mode almost all the time
>> and momentarily switches into text mode for fraction(s) of a frame, then an
>> analog monitor would remain in color mode.
>>
>> The behavior of an (anachronistic) digital monitor is undefined. Some may
>> behave like analog monitors, but some may blank the image until a
>> "consistent" signal is detected. Others might try to track the
>> "instantaneous" color mode a line at a time (though I've never seen that
>> behavior).
>
> For what it's worth, I believe that if you are trying to make an
> emulator as true to the Apple II as possible then it should emulate what
> the Apple video output signal does and not what some "less than optimum"
> monitor was displaying back in the day.
> In other words graphics should be in color and text black and white with
> no color fringe, even when the two are mixed.
>
> I say "less than optimum" because I had a composite monitor in 1980 that
> did a reasonably good job of displaying color in mixed mode with non
> color fringed text below.
>
> Charlie
>
>
Do you remember what kind of monitor it was? That's extremely unusual
behavior.
And the Apple II video *leaves the color burst on* during the 4-line text
display under graphics modes, since NTSC is not speced for burst changes
within a frame.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330487 is a reply to message #330477] |
Sat, 15 October 2016 01:07 |
sicklittlemonkey
Messages: 570
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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On Saturday, 15 October 2016 10:55:29 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Do you remember what kind of monitor it was? That's extremely unusual
> behavior.
>
> And the Apple II video *leaves the color burst on* during the 4-line text
> display under graphics modes, since NTSC is not speced for burst changes
> within a frame.
It's less the kind of video and more the kind of II.
My bet is that Charlie has a PAL IIe (like me) as it outputs white text in mixed modes.
Cheers,
Nick.
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330503 is a reply to message #330477] |
Sat, 15 October 2016 12:07 |
Charlie
Messages: 255
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/14/2016 5:55 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
> Charlie<charlieDOTd@verEYEzon.net> wrote:
>> On 10/13/2016 12:48 PM, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>> sicklittlemonkey<nick.westgate@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thursday, 13 October 2016 14:42:11 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>>>> >>> Oh, could you post a pic of what OE looks like for that?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> https://imgur.com/a/k8aSE - This is with a color monitor: it appears it
>>>> >> leaves the color signal off for the entire screen render.
>>>> >
>>>> > Remember that the color burst, which is the only indication that a
>>>> > composite signal contains color information, was never intended to switch
>>>> > on and off rapidly.
>>>> >
>>>> > Analog monitors typically take several frames to switch. Digital monitors
>>>> > could do almost anything for a similar number of milliseconds.
>>>>
>>>> Heh, you've said this before and I was about to quote you. ; - )
>>>>
>>>> So yeah, OE is showing the correct behaviour for an analog monitor.
>>>>
>>>> AppleWin shows the same but in colour.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Nick.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If a program "resides" in text mode, then momentarily switches into a
>>> graphics mode for a fraction of a frame (small fraction?), an analog
>>> monitor would remain in monochrome mode.
>>>
>>> If, on the other hand, a program is in graphics mode almost all the time
>>> and momentarily switches into text mode for fraction(s) of a frame, then an
>>> analog monitor would remain in color mode.
>>>
>>> The behavior of an (anachronistic) digital monitor is undefined. Some may
>>> behave like analog monitors, but some may blank the image until a
>>> "consistent" signal is detected. Others might try to track the
>>> "instantaneous" color mode a line at a time (though I've never seen that
>>> behavior).
>>
>> For what it's worth, I believe that if you are trying to make an
>> emulator as true to the Apple II as possible then it should emulate what
>> the Apple video output signal does and not what some "less than optimum"
>> monitor was displaying back in the day.
>> In other words graphics should be in color and text black and white with
>> no color fringe, even when the two are mixed.
>>
>> I say "less than optimum" because I had a composite monitor in 1980 that
>> did a reasonably good job of displaying color in mixed mode with non
>> color fringed text below.
>>
>> Charlie
>>
>>
>
> Do you remember what kind of monitor it was? That's extremely unusual
> behavior.
Yes it was a Samsung TV (13" I think) that was modified by a local
company to have a composite input. The modification was meant
specifically for Apple IIs.
> And the Apple II video *leaves the color burst on* during the 4-line text
> display under graphics modes, since NTSC is not speced for burst changes
> within a frame.
Not being a hardware guy I certainly won't argue that. All I know is
that it worked.
And yes I've been told by others that it couldn't have worked that way.
Usually sales people when I tried to buy another monitor.
Unfortunately, my monitor lasted only a year or so before something in
the high voltage section died.
Incidentally, the division between the graphics and text was not always
perfect. *Sometimes* you could see the top one or two scan lines of the
text portion flicker between color and black and white.
Charlie
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330504 is a reply to message #330487] |
Sat, 15 October 2016 12:09 |
Charlie
Messages: 255
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 10/15/2016 1:07 AM, sicklittlemonkey wrote:
> On Saturday, 15 October 2016 10:55:29 UTC+13, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> Do you remember what kind of monitor it was? That's extremely unusual
>> behavior.
>>
>> And the Apple II video *leaves the color burst on* during the 4-line text
>> display under graphics modes, since NTSC is not speced for burst changes
>> within a frame.
>
> It's less the kind of video and more the kind of II.
>
> My bet is that Charlie has a PAL IIe (like me) as it outputs white text in mixed modes.
It was an Apple II+ (not PAL) that I bought new in 1980 with the monitor.
Charlie
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| Re: Any pointers on emulating an Apple IIe (enhanced) in Mame on MacOS X? [message #330509 is a reply to message #330507] |
Sat, 15 October 2016 18:55 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Brian Patrie <bpatrie@bellsouth.spamisicky.net> wrote:
> On 2016-10-14 16:55, Michael J. Mahon wrote:
>> And the Apple II video *leaves the color burst on* during the 4-line text
>> display under graphics modes, since NTSC is not speced for burst changes
>> within a frame.
>
> Not the the II ever truly adhered to the NTSC spec. ;)
>
True, as regards the details, such as no interlace. But the actual
"standard" to which Woz designed was compatibility with late-1970s analog
color TVs and monitors.
Monitor designs were slow (think a hundred milliseconds or more) to switch
from color to monochrome because it was not unusual for noise or
interference to interrupt the color burst for several lines or even a
frame. When switching from monochrome to color, it often required a frame
or two for the local chroma oscillator to phase lock to the color burst.
The time constant for switching modes was chosen to optimize for these
conditions.
A digital monitor could switch more quickly in the absence of noise, but
they didn't exist when the Apple II was designed.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
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