Megalextoria
Retro computing and gaming, sci-fi books, tv and movies and other geeky stuff.

Home » Digital Archaeology » Computer Arcana » Computer Folklore » I Feel Old
Show: Today's Messages :: Show Polls :: Message Navigator
E-mail to friend 
Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Re: I Feel Old [message #307277 is a reply to message #307223] Sun, 03 January 2016 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lon is currently offline  Lon
Messages: 395
Registered: June 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 1/2/2016 18:36, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 11:50:57 AM UTC-5, Joe Morris wrote:
>> I also have some fun with them, talking about the amount of storage in their
>> cellphones, then casually asking if anybody in the class has had to dial a
>> telephone number manually in the past couple of weeks. There's usually at
>> least one student who will bite, at which point I hold out a quarter and bet
>> that he's wrong...and then I haul out of my transport box an old AECo dial
>> telephone, noting that (almost) *nobody* acutally *DIALS* a number today.
>
> I still use a real rotary dial phone at times.
>
> But I wonder how long the teleco will support pulse dialing. In one
> sense it will be around since sending a 'flash' is a hookswitch
> interruption and the telco gear must still detect such an interrupt,
> so the same gear can detect dial pulses. However, I wonder if they'll
> declare all analog phones obsolete and require us to use VOIP or some
> sort of converter to feed VOIP for the few remaining POTS users.
>
>
Good question, I haven't found any COs in the USofA that don't still
support pulse dialing on POTS type service lines, but I don't travel as
much in my geezer days as I used to. I have found PBX's that don't work
well with pulse type dialling using the switchhook.
I wonder if there is some sort of obscure gov't requirement that pulse
be supported?
Re: I Feel Old [message #307278 is a reply to message #307117] Sun, 03 January 2016 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lon is currently offline  Lon
Messages: 395
Registered: June 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 1/3/2016 8:45, Dave Garland wrote:
> On 1/3/2016 8:07 AM, John Garza wrote:
>> On 01/02/2016 07:36 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> But I wonder how long the teleco will support pulse dialing. In one
>>> sense it will be around since sending a 'flash' is a hookswitch
>>> interruption and the telco gear must still detect such an interrupt,
>>> so the same gear can detect dial pulses. However, I wonder if they'll
>>> declare all analog phones obsolete and require us to use VOIP or some
>>> sort of converter to feed VOIP for the few remaining POTS users.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
>> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>>
>
> No secrets from Microsoft, eh?
>
The difference between Windows 10 and Malware/Spyware, is that most
other malware/spyware is at least entertaining, far less intrusive, and
much less sneaky.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307279 is a reply to message #307242] Sun, 03 January 2016 15:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Freddy1

Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Jan 2016 21:35:40 -0500
> Freddy1 <something@something.com> wrote:
>
>>> suspended by springs from all eight corners. I doubt we could have been
>> 8?
>
> Yes a cuboid has eight corners, six faces and twelve edges.
>
>> Freddy,
>> who would love to see that dice.
>
> I do have dice with 8 faces (also ones with 4, 6, 12 and 20 faces)
> of course only the six sided ones are cubes but there are five regular
> convex polyhedra that make perfectly good dice.
>

AArgh!!
Off-by-one error.

Freddy,
I blame start of year celebrations.

--
Carefully cut along this line.

/|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\|
/| I may be demented \|
/| but I'm not crazy! \|
/|<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<\|
* SPAyM trap: there is no X in my address *
Re: I Feel Old [message #307283 is a reply to message #307223] Sun, 03 January 2016 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 997
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:

> I still use a real rotary dial phone at times.
>
> But I wonder how long the teleco will support pulse dialing. In one
> sense it will be around since sending a 'flash' is a hookswitch
> interruption and the telco gear must still detect such an interrupt,
> so the same gear can detect dial pulses. However, I wonder if they'll
> declare all analog phones obsolete and require us to use VOIP or some
> sort of converter to feed VOIP for the few remaining POTS users.

There are still quite a few rotary phones lurking in homes of the
middle aged and elderly here in rural Nova Scotia. Ours, too, until
fairly recently (by the chronological standards of "elderly". :-)

A decade or so ago, we had a line problem while the service techs were
on strike. On the third unfruitful visit from managers and sales
droids in a service truck, one of them finally jumped into the truck,
drove 5 miles to the nearest switchgear cabinet and swapped out a
circuit board. Line cleared but pulse dial stopped working. Happily,
we had an assortment of Nortel 2500 sets collected up for just such an
eventuality so we were fine after some hasty fiddling and we stopped
paying monthly rental on the dial phones.

(Pulse dial capability returned after a while. I surmise that other
subscribers complained but I dunno for sure.)

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: I Feel Old [message #307284 is a reply to message #307278] Sun, 03 January 2016 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> writes:

> On 1/3/2016 8:45, Dave Garland wrote:
>> On 1/3/2016 8:07 AM, John Garza wrote:
>>> On 01/02/2016 07:36 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> But I wonder how long the teleco will support pulse dialing. In one
>>>> sense it will be around since sending a 'flash' is a hookswitch
>>>> interruption and the telco gear must still detect such an interrupt,
>>>> so the same gear can detect dial pulses. However, I wonder if they'll
>>>> declare all analog phones obsolete and require us to use VOIP or some
>>>> sort of converter to feed VOIP for the few remaining POTS users.
>>>
>>> Yep.
>>>
>>> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
>>> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>>>
>>
>> No secrets from Microsoft, eh?
>>
> The difference between Windows 10 and Malware/Spyware, is that most
> other malware/spyware is at least entertaining, far less intrusive,
> and much less sneaky.

We're still on W7 but I think corporations will get a different W10
than the one foisted on the public.

--
Dan Espen
Re: I Feel Old [message #307286 is a reply to message #307284] Sun, 03 January 2016 17:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 2:56:29 PM UTC-7, D_J_E wrote:

> We're still on W7 but I think corporations will get a different W10
> than the one foisted on the public.

The Enterprise edition of Windows 10 indeed allows some control over updates, unlike the consumer one.

John Savard
Re: I Feel Old [message #307290 is a reply to message #307249] Sun, 03 January 2016 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 03/01/2016 14:07, John Garza wrote:
{snip}

>
> Yep.
>
> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>
> -J

HP may wish to consider writing its own replacement for Skype. Although
make sure they can interwork.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307294 is a reply to message #307142] Sun, 03 January 2016 12:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Uncle Steve is currently offline  Uncle Steve
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 03:57:43PM -0800, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Yes we have come a very long way indeed. It makes you wonder what
>> another 35 years will bring.
>
> Of course, the pace of progress is slowing a bit. Dennard scaling has already
> gone by the boards, and Moore's Law has only a bit more life left in it.

Well, we haven't hit the atomic wall yet. While we seem to be
reaching the limits of bulk manufacturing processes, the atom-by-atom
approach remains to be explored. This represents something of a
discontinuity to the stately progression of Moore's law, but I am too
ignorant of science to project its limitation in terms of processor
clock speed, information density, heat dissipation, etc.

> However, other areas of technological progress are about to start their sigmoid
> curves.
>
> So maybe 35 years from now, computers will only be a "little" better than they
> are today (that will still be a significant improvement, just not as much as
> further exponential growth would indicate)... but that CISPR stuff might lead
> to cures for nearly all genetic diseases, and basically eternal youth through
> rebuilding telomeres...

I came to the realization some time ago that the natural apotheosis of
medicine was the eventual cure of disease and ageing. Looking back it
seems a rather obvious projection of capability, and I wonder whether
some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
we now see looming.

> One way or another, the future will be exciting.

That's one way of putting it.



--
We all cannot be intelligent, but at least we can all be polite.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307303 is a reply to message #307294] Sun, 03 January 2016 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:28:20 PM UTC-7, Uncle Steve wrote:
> I wonder whether
> some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
> developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
> we now see looming.

Generally speaking, in the distant past, people didn't notice change within
their lifetimes, and so it wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the
possibility really entered the popular consciousness.

However, long before that, Roger Bacon wrote his vision of a future with
increased technical capabilities.

And then, perhaps the earliest, the Bible speaks of a time when "people shall
go to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

John Savard
Re: I Feel Old [message #307305 is a reply to message #307242] Sun, 03 January 2016 23:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gene Wirchenko is currently offline  Gene Wirchenko
Messages: 1166
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 08:33:45 +0000, Ahem A Rivet's Shot
<steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 02 Jan 2016 21:35:40 -0500
> Freddy1 <something@something.com> wrote:
>
>>> suspended by springs from all eight corners. I doubt we could have been
>> 8?
>
> Yes a cuboid has eight corners, six faces and twelve edges.
>
>> Freddy,
>> who would love to see that dice.
>
> I do have dice with 8 faces (also ones with 4, 6, 12 and 20 faces)
> of course only the six sided ones are cubes but there are five regular
> convex polyhedra that make perfectly good dice.

I have a round d6. (It works with a weight.)

I also have a d30. The faces are two equilateral triangles
joined on a common side.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Re: I Feel Old [message #307314 is a reply to message #307303] Mon, 04 January 2016 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jack is currently offline  jack
Messages: 83
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Member
"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:e9a165d0-91a6-4c6b-87b6-c9241c9d6545@googlegroups.com...
> On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:28:20 PM UTC-7, Uncle Steve wrote:
>> I wonder whether
>> some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
>> developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
>> we now see looming.
>
> Generally speaking, in the distant past, people didn't notice change
> within
> their lifetimes,

That is radically overstated, particularly
with those that got invaded by the Romans.

True in spades of the colonialists.

> and so it wasn't until the Industrial Revolution that the
> possibility really entered the popular consciousness.

That is just plain wrong.

> However, long before that, Roger Bacon wrote his vision of a future with
> increased technical capabilities.
>
> And then, perhaps the earliest, the Bible speaks of a time when "people
> shall
> go to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased".

That must have been happening a long time before the bible ever
showed up as people moved from hunter gatherer societys to
agriculture with all the technology that had to happen with that.

Same with the exploitation of metals etc.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307325 is a reply to message #307187] Mon, 04 January 2016 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

In article <20160102155831.5f4f8e8d91b1067ab26e5eb3@eircom.net>,
steveo@eircom.net says...
>
> On 2 Jan 2016 15:01:45 GMT
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines. the real
>> innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
>> will happen until hardware resources become scarce.
>
> Read this if you think software is stagnating, some of it is jaw
> dropping!
>
> http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-top-ai-breakthroughs-of-2015/
>
> There's more to software than managing scarcity.

If Kurzweil says it works then you can bet your bottom dollar that it
doesn't.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307326 is a reply to message #307253] Mon, 04 January 2016 06:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

In article <20160103150639.ab17fb75aee64830eea1ae5e@eircom.net>,
steveo@eircom.net says...
>
> On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 08:07:15 -0600
> John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>
>> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
>> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>
>
> They have *far* more trust in what Skype is up to than I do then,
> places with a proper regard for security tend to ban Skype from their LANs.

I'm pretty sure our management cares about security given that half of
one floor of a large building is dedicated to it. It has a lot of stuff
locked out including private Skype, but it has Lync, which is corporate
Skype, enabled. It's not tied into the phone system though--it's
supposed to be according to the training that we have been provided but
it doesn't actually work.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307328 is a reply to message #307326] Mon, 04 January 2016 07:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 06:44:04 -0500
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <20160103150639.ab17fb75aee64830eea1ae5e@eircom.net>,
> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>
>> On Sun, 03 Jan 2016 08:07:15 -0600
>> John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> wrote:
>>
>>> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
>>> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>>
>>
>> They have *far* more trust in what Skype is up to than I do
>> then, places with a proper regard for security tend to ban Skype from
>> their LANs.
>
> I'm pretty sure our management cares about security given that half of
> one floor of a large building is dedicated to it. It has a lot of stuff
> locked out including private Skype, but it has Lync, which is corporate
> Skype, enabled.

Yeah my CPOE has Lync, but I'm pretty sure it's confined to the
internal network. The network admins really don't like letting encrypted
traffic out unless they can MITM and monitor it.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: I Feel Old [message #307329 is a reply to message #307325] Mon, 04 January 2016 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 06:40:43 -0500
"J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <20160102155831.5f4f8e8d91b1067ab26e5eb3@eircom.net>,
> steveo@eircom.net says...
>>
>> On 2 Jan 2016 15:01:45 GMT
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Which is similar to the airline business after jet engines. the real
>>> innovations will have to be done with software and I don't think that
>>> will happen until hardware resources become scarce.
>>
>> Read this if you think software is stagnating, some of it is jaw
>> dropping!
>>
>> http://www.kurzweilai.net/the-top-ai-breakthroughs-of-2015/
>>
>> There's more to software than managing scarcity.
>
> If Kurzweil says it works then you can bet your bottom dollar that it
> doesn't.

Furrfu! Read it! This is not his 'the future holds' stuff it's an
up to date survey of work and results in the field. The byline on it is
Richard Mallah not Ray kurzweil and everything mentioned in it has decent
references.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: I Feel Old [message #307330 is a reply to message #307305] Mon, 04 January 2016 08:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 9:52:53 PM UTC-7, Gene Wirchenko wrote:

> I also have a d30. The faces are two equilateral triangles
> joined on a common side.

Not quite. A d30 is in the shape of a rhombic triacontahedron; the sharp angles
on its diamond-shaped faces aren't 60 degrees, they're about 63.43494882822...
degrees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhombic_triacontahedron

John Savard
Re: I Feel Old [message #307331 is a reply to message #307249] Mon, 04 January 2016 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: John Garza

On 01/03/2016 08:07 AM, John Garza wrote:
> On 01/02/2016 07:36 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> But I wonder how long the teleco will support pulse dialing. In one
>> sense it will be around since sending a 'flash' is a hookswitch
>> interruption and the telco gear must still detect such an interrupt,
>> so the same gear can detect dial pulses. However, I wonder if they'll
>> declare all analog phones obsolete and require us to use VOIP or some
>> sort of converter to feed VOIP for the few remaining POTS users.
>>
>>
>
> Yep.
>
> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>
> -J

Yes, Skype is now owned by Microsoft.

But remember HP is a 'Microsoft Partner' and their machines use Windows.
The majority of our support calls are OS related, too.

HP is very much 'in bed' with Uncle Bill.

You start talking Linux there and you can see the fear in their eyes.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307335 is a reply to message #307331] Mon, 04 January 2016 09:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 04 Jan 2016 07:42:32 -0600
John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> wrote:

> On 01/03/2016 08:07 AM, John Garza wrote:
> Yes, Skype is now owned by Microsoft.
>
> But remember HP is a 'Microsoft Partner' and their machines use Windows.
> The majority of our support calls are OS related, too.
>
> HP is very much 'in bed' with Uncle Bill.
>
> You start talking Linux there and you can see the fear in their eyes.

How about mentioning HPUX ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: I Feel Old [message #307338 is a reply to message #307224] Mon, 04 January 2016 10:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 8:56:48 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:


> Most US companies that had pension plans went bankrupt long ago, often
> in large part due to those very pension plans because they were either
> underfunded or the target of corporate raiders.

FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70
because his old company was raided and his pension substantially
decreased. The successor company treats their people like serfs,
and is very quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky
to have a job.


> Most of the few remaining ones offer pensions only to union employees or
> those over a certain age; younger or non-union employees have only a
> 401(k) or similar plan available.

Many people who have a 401k have not done well with them. Individual
everyday people do not have the skills to pick a competent fund manager
nor manage the funds themselves. Many have not recovered from the 2007
crash. They'll also be working until age 70. (Not helping is that
some fund managers were outright crooks, charging excessively high
fees.)

[snip]

>> Many workers approaching retirement have discovered they won't have
>> income and have to keep working.
>
> That's not uncommon. Most people don't plan ahead, so by the time they
> realize there's a problem, it's too late to do anything about it. That
> was part of the point of Social Security.
>
> OTOH, public sector workers can retire after 20-30 years and then live
> off the taxpayers' largesse for another 40+ years. Ditto for many union
> workers, at least until it bankrupts their former employer.

Unfortunately, many of the workers who have gotten screwed did plan
ahead--they were simply cheated out of their pension by corporate
raiders or the like. For public employee, many of their pensions
have been cut, even to retirees.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307339 is a reply to message #307244] Mon, 04 January 2016 10:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:26:56 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> Luckily most of the moves happen when the person graduates from college,
> and all their belongings will fit in the back seat of their car. Many
> people might also start out somewhere and move a few years later, when it's
> still relatively painless. It gets a lot harder when you get married and
> both husband and wife have jobs, you have kids in school and other roots in
> the community.
>
> I don't have anything other than a hunch on this, but the Great Recession
> seems to have shown that people will do almost anything to avoid moving at
> this stage of their lives, taking two or three part-time jobs for which
> they're over-qualified, for example, or becoming willing to accept
> handouts.

I've seen lots of families with roots forced to move due to major
closures and nothing else on the horizon in the area. This has been
covered in the news. Some rust belt areas (and some 'good' areas)
got hit hard by corporate consolidations and even part-time jobs are
scarce because of high unemployment and very low economic activity.
Hurting those people is that when they sell their house, they get a
pittance for it, and are thus in a weaker position in the new
community.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307340 is a reply to message #307245] Mon, 04 January 2016 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:26:57 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> Stephen Sprunk <> wrote:
>> OTOH, public sector workers can retire after 20-30 years and then live
>> off the taxpayers' largesse for another 40+ years.
>
> Going after those jobs also requires forethought. They tend to pay less
> than the private sector and don't offer stock options. You have to include
> the value of the pension in your calculations when deciding to take the
> job.

As mentioned, pensions have been reduced in many public sector jobs
for all employees and retirees. Somehow, the courts have found that
what was supposedly a binding contract was actually not a binding
contract.

In addition, many public sector pensions have always required a
mandatory employee contribution, and these have been increased.



> Here in the (NY) Capital District the two major employers used to be state
> government and a company I'll call Generous Electric; from my recollection
> the benefits used to be equivalent: health care, pension, job security,
> etc. Over the years GE has had numerous layoffs and I believe have reduced
> benefits. The State has stayed about the same, with a few minor layoffs
> here and there. In my case they changed what had been a contributory
> pension plan to non-contributory, although other "tiers" (based on
> employment date) got worse. Rather than a layoff the State tends to shed
> employees by giving old-timers some time credited toward their retirement
> if they leave right away.

Once the economy truly recovers public service employment will
no longer be attractive--the pay is lousy, benefits have been
slashed, and layoffs occur. Then they'll be forced to pay big
bucks to consultants and outside contractors to get work done.

Law Enforcement personnel have tended to be exempt from some of the
cutbacks, though not always.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307341 is a reply to message #307277] Mon, 04 January 2016 10:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 3:11:01 PM UTC-5, Lon wrote:

> Good question, I haven't found any COs in the USofA that don't still
> support pulse dialing on POTS type service lines, but I don't travel as
> much in my geezer days as I used to. I have found PBX's that don't work
> well with pulse type dialling using the switchhook.
> I wonder if there is some sort of obscure gov't requirement that pulse
> be supported?

I _think_ modern business PBXs don't use switchhook signalling at all,
rather, they use digital signalling and special telephone sets. An
classic telephone set won't even work on such systems.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307345 is a reply to message #307341] Mon, 04 January 2016 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andrew Swallow is currently offline  Andrew Swallow
Messages: 1705
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 04/01/2016 15:48, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 3:11:01 PM UTC-5, Lon wrote:
>
>> Good question, I haven't found any COs in the USofA that don't still
>> support pulse dialing on POTS type service lines, but I don't travel as
>> much in my geezer days as I used to. I have found PBX's that don't work
>> well with pulse type dialling using the switchhook.
>> I wonder if there is some sort of obscure gov't requirement that pulse
>> be supported?
>
> I _think_ modern business PBXs don't use switchhook signalling at all,
> rather, they use digital signalling and special telephone sets. An
> classic telephone set won't even work on such systems.
>
A PBX has two sets of interfaces. The first to the hand sets within the
company. The second is the external interface to the phone network. They
can have different facilities.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307346 is a reply to message #307341] Mon, 04 January 2016 11:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Mon, 4 Jan 2016 07:48:55 -0800 (PST)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:

> On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 3:11:01 PM UTC-5, Lon wrote:
>
>> Good question, I haven't found any COs in the USofA that don't still
>> support pulse dialing on POTS type service lines, but I don't travel as
>> much in my geezer days as I used to. I have found PBX's that don't
>> work well with pulse type dialling using the switchhook.
>> I wonder if there is some sort of obscure gov't requirement that pulse
>> be supported?
>
> I _think_ modern business PBXs don't use switchhook signalling at all,
> rather, they use digital signalling and special telephone sets. An
> classic telephone set won't even work on such systems.

True most modern business phone systems are VOIP using SIP - which
is handy because you can often use a SIP client on a laptop to have your
desk phone with you while traveling or working from home. Some of the
phones have a two port bridge built in so you can use a single network port
on the desk to connect phone and computer.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: I Feel Old [message #307347 is a reply to message #307331] Mon, 04 January 2016 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
John Garza <john@127.0.0.1> writes:

> On 01/03/2016 08:07 AM, John Garza wrote:
>> On 01/02/2016 07:36 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> But I wonder how long the teleco will support pulse dialing. In one
>>> sense it will be around since sending a 'flash' is a hookswitch
>>> interruption and the telco gear must still detect such an interrupt,
>>> so the same gear can detect dial pulses. However, I wonder if they'll
>>> declare all analog phones obsolete and require us to use VOIP or some
>>> sort of converter to feed VOIP for the few remaining POTS users.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> They got rid of our old phones at HP.
>> Now we use Skype video conferencing.
>>
>> -J
>
> Yes, Skype is now owned by Microsoft.
>
> But remember HP is a 'Microsoft Partner' and their machines use Windows.
> The majority of our support calls are OS related, too.
>
> HP is very much 'in bed' with Uncle Bill.
>
> You start talking Linux there and you can see the fear in their eyes.

Actually, I worked in a shop where HP does facilities management.
Linux was offered as a desktop choice.
I have no idea how HP staff felt about it.

--
Dan Espen
Re: I Feel Old [message #307350 is a reply to message #307338] Mon, 04 January 2016 12:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <08580c70-6bf4-4a37-bb64-e4cd2782409d@googlegroups.com>,
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 8:56:48 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>
>
>> Most US companies that had pension plans went bankrupt long ago, often
>> in large part due to those very pension plans because they were either
>> underfunded or the target of corporate raiders.
>
> FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70
> because his old company was raided and his pension substantially
> decreased. The successor company treats their people like serfs,
> and is very quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky
> to have a job.

This is mostly a US-centric problem about how the pensions are
organised. Most other civilised countries have stringent rules that
the pension fund is cordoned off from the company funding it; organised
as some form of coop (i.e. ruled by the benefactors) or non-profit,
regulated company. They are also prohibited from investing a too
large share into the company that funds it. This share is usually
limited to 15-30% of the capital base.

Some of these are co-managed by unions or professional associations.

>> Most of the few remaining ones offer pensions only to union employees or
>> those over a certain age; younger or non-union employees have only a
>> 401(k) or similar plan available.
>
> Many people who have a 401k have not done well with them. Individual
> everyday people do not have the skills to pick a competent fund manager
> nor manage the funds themselves. Many have not recovered from the 2007
> crash. They'll also be working until age 70. (Not helping is that
> some fund managers were outright crooks, charging excessively high
> fees.)

If you don't have an actual education in finance you are well advised to
invest in some index tracking fund with good liquidity, like the QQQQs.
That will get you the average of the stock market, which is pretty good
in the longer term.

> [snip]
>
>>> Many workers approaching retirement have discovered they won't have
>>> income and have to keep working.
>>
>> That's not uncommon. Most people don't plan ahead, so by the time they
>> realize there's a problem, it's too late to do anything about it. That
>> was part of the point of Social Security.
>>
>> OTOH, public sector workers can retire after 20-30 years and then live
>> off the taxpayers' largesse for another 40+ years. Ditto for many union
>> workers, at least until it bankrupts their former employer.
>
> Unfortunately, many of the workers who have gotten screwed did plan
> ahead--they were simply cheated out of their pension by corporate
> raiders or the like. For public employee, many of their pensions
> have been cut, even to retirees.

That a corporate raider can get at more than a single digit percentage
of an employee pension fund.

-- mrr
Re: I Feel Old [message #307351 is a reply to message #307294] Mon, 04 January 2016 12:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <7db2ed440bca8c0-13432@gmail.com>,
Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 03:57:43PM -0800, Quadibloc wrote:
>> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Yes we have come a very long way indeed. It makes you wonder what
>>> another 35 years will bring.
>>
>> Of course, the pace of progress is slowing a bit. Dennard scaling has already
>> gone by the boards, and Moore's Law has only a bit more life left in it.
>
> Well, we haven't hit the atomic wall yet. While we seem to be
> reaching the limits of bulk manufacturing processes, the atom-by-atom
> approach remains to be explored. This represents something of a
> discontinuity to the stately progression of Moore's law, but I am too
> ignorant of science to project its limitation in terms of processor
> clock speed, information density, heat dissipation, etc.

The first real, hard wall we are going to see is one of money. As the
fabs get tuned for smaller, faster layouts they go more than linearly
up in investment cost. Even IBM and Intel have huge issues about financing
their current ones, and even small/faster ones are going to take a lot
of depreciation time; i.e. the expansion will slowly peter to a halt
a good bit before the fundamental physical constants are reached.

But we may see one-off, "hand made" chips emerge at mainframe prices
on fabs that don't support industrial scales.

All predicted by The Economist a decade ago.

>> However, other areas of technological progress are about to start their sigmoid
>> curves.
>>
>> So maybe 35 years from now, computers will only be a "little" better than they
>> are today (that will still be a significant improvement, just not as much as
>> further exponential growth would indicate)... but that CISPR stuff might lead
>> to cures for nearly all genetic diseases, and basically eternal youth through
>> rebuilding telomeres...
>
> I came to the realization some time ago that the natural apotheosis of
> medicine was the eventual cure of disease and ageing. Looking back it
> seems a rather obvious projection of capability, and I wonder whether
> some of the ancients (in Rome, for instance) looked upon technological
> developments of their age and imagined in some dim way the potential
> we now see looming.

Well, with people in better health in higher age we will have to do
something about pensions. The medical industry need not worry, though.
Medication generally go up with age, even if they handle the ailments
a lot better than the precursors did a generation ago.

>> One way or another, the future will be exciting.
>
> That's one way of putting it.

I see faintly a society of "peace, freedom and prosperity for all" emerge
in the far future.

-- mrr
Re: I Feel Old [message #307352 is a reply to message #307351] Mon, 04 January 2016 12:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2016-01-04, Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:

> In article <7db2ed440bca8c0-13432@gmail.com>,
> Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 03:57:43PM -0800, Quadibloc wrote:
>>
>>> One way or another, the future will be exciting.
>>
>> That's one way of putting it.
>
> I see faintly a society of "peace, freedom and prosperity for all" emerge
> in the far future.

FSVO "all", unless we're careful.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: I Feel Old [message #307371 is a reply to message #307350] Mon, 04 January 2016 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 12:39:05 PM UTC-5, Morten Reistad wrote:

> That a corporate raider can get at more than a single digit percentage
> of an employee pension fund.

What often happens after a corporate raid is that the resulting
company is loaded down with heavy debt. Pension debt is one of
the things that becomes 'unsustainable' and somehow, corporations
are able to convince the courts to be allowed to shed it.

For instance, on the very same day, the business page of the Phila
Inqr reported that the owners of American Airlines reported record
profits, as well as reporting that same owners went to the courts
to abrogate their pension obligations as being too onerous.

The raiders have found all sorts of loopholes and tricks to shed
or minimize pension obligations. Some state governments are doing
likewise.

Years ago pensions had more protection. For instance, I don't
believe pensions were impacted during the Penn Central bankruptcy.
Nor were pensions hurt when New York City has its infamous default.
Howeer, today, bond payments are often considered more important than
pensions for both public and private sectors.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307372 is a reply to message #307350] Mon, 04 January 2016 14:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 04-Jan-16 11:30, Morten Reistad wrote:
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70 because
>> his old company was raided and his pension substantially decreased.
>> The successor company treats their people like serfs, and is very
>> quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky to have a job.
>
> This is mostly a US-centric problem about how the pensions are
> organised. Most other civilised countries have stringent rules that
> the pension fund is cordoned off from the company funding it;
> organised as some form of coop (i.e. ruled by the benefactors) or
> non-profit, regulated company. They are also prohibited from
> investing a too large share into the company that funds it. This
> share is usually limited to 15-30% of the capital base.
>
> Some of these are co-managed by unions or professional associations.

Indeed, and this has been a problem in the US for decades; employers
often "managed" their pension funds by giving low-/no-interest loans to
themselves rather than having to pay market rates. That is one of the
reasons why employers _wanted_ to offer pensions--until the bill came
due and they had no cash to pay out retirees' benefits.

By far, the most notable part of the GM bankruptcy and bailout was the
transfer of its pension to UAW; as soon as that paperwork was done, GM
was instantly solvent and profitable again. IMHO, this should be done
with _all_ pensions--and perhaps we'd see more companies offering them
again if that were the case.

You may hear about 401(k), 403(b), IRA or other retirement plans; these
are often mistakenly called pensions, but they're not. What's relevant
here is that their funds _are_ held in trust by a third party, unlike
pensions (other than the GM/UAW exception).

>> Many people who have a 401k have not done well with them.
>> Individual everyday people do not have the skills to pick a
>> competent fund manager nor manage the funds themselves. Many have
>> not recovered from the 2007 crash. They'll also be working until
>> age 70. (Not helping is that some fund managers were outright
>> crooks, charging excessively high fees.)
>
> If you don't have an actual education in finance you are well advised
> to invest in some index tracking fund with good liquidity, like the
> QQQQs. That will get you the average of the stock market, which is
> pretty good in the longer term.

Most 401(k) and similar plans only allow selecting from a very short
list of mutual funds, and there are usually several index funds; no
"managed" fund in history has out-performed its relevant index over the
long term, at least after the "management" fees are subtracted, so the
choice is clear: put everything in indexes.

Some plans offer the ability to invest in your employer's stock, but
IMHO that is a very bad idea and should probably be illegal; that an
employer would even let you do that is probably a sign that you
shouldn't be working there, much less investing in their stock.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: I Feel Old [message #307375 is a reply to message #307340] Mon, 04 January 2016 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 04-Jan-16 09:44, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Sunday, January 3, 2016 at 7:26:57 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>> Stephen Sprunk <> wrote:
>>> OTOH, public sector workers can retire after 20-30 years and then
>>> live off the taxpayers' largesse for another 40+ years.
>>
>> Going after those jobs also requires forethought. They tend to pay
>> less than the private sector and don't offer stock options. You
>> have to include the value of the pension in your calculations when
>> deciding to take the job.
>
> As mentioned, pensions have been reduced in many public sector jobs
> for all employees and retirees. ...
> In addition, many public sector pensions have always required a
> mandatory employee contribution, and these have been increased.

I don't know how it works in other states, but neither of those has
happened in mine; the contribution rate has been fixed for decades and
nobody has ever lost benefits after retiring. What _does_ change from
year to year is how many "points" are required to qualify, so you can't
reliably predict _when_ you'll retire until that day actually arrives.

> Somehow, the courts have found that what was supposedly a binding
> contract was actually not a binding contract.

Not all contracts are binding, but the exceptions are well-known and
rarely an issue in practice (other than bankruptcy) thanks to the
Contract Clause.

However, I suspect what you'll find, if you dig deep enough, is that
pension benefit promises didn't actually meet the definition of a
contract in the first place. That is usually the case when someone
complains a "contract" isn't being honored, other than a bankruptcy.

> Once the economy truly recovers public service employment will no
> longer be attractive--the pay is lousy, benefits have been slashed,
> and layoffs occur. Then they'll be forced to pay big bucks to
> consultants and outside contractors to get work done.

Contractors are a mixed bag, but overall, they usually cost less for the
same work, in large part because they don't have the same benefits (e.g.
pensions) or job security. That's good for the taxpayers, but I don't
think it's good for society as a whole.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: I Feel Old [message #307391 is a reply to message #307372] Mon, 04 January 2016 15:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
osmium is currently offline  osmium
Messages: 749
Registered: April 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Stephen Sprunk" wrote:

> You may hear about 401(k), 403(b), IRA or other retirement plans; these
> are often mistakenly called pensions, but they're not. What's relevant
> here is that their funds _are_ held in trust by a third party, unlike
> pensions (other than the GM/UAW exception).

When 401Ks started being popular my employer gave me a packet of literature
about this new "retirement plan" I read it over and over and over and never
did find a retirement plan. It drove me absolutely crazy that they couldn't
have some English speaking person do their write-up. It was a plan to
accumulate a pile of money, if you chose to you could, havling the pile, buy
an annuity and have a simulated retirement plan. But from everything I saw,
actually buying an annuity is a very poor choice for most people.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307393 is a reply to message #307121] Mon, 04 January 2016 15:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charles Richmond is currently offline  Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
"Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
news:bf5c8aeb-eca2-4905-836c-635f9a0ec1a3@googlegroups.com...
On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 12:33:22 PM UTC-7, Charles Richmond wrote:
> "Quadibloc" <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote in message
> news:9dcde262-7129-4a8f-b034-105b67d61cf5@googlegroups.com...

[snip...] [snip...]
[snip...]

>>> I can remember the days, not long ago, when people were excited about
>>> being able
>>> to attach a 5 megabyte
>>>
>>> *hard disk*
>>>
>>> to their computers.
>>>
>>> We have come a long way.
>
>> Quadiblock, you are *not* old... you are *ancient*!!! You were raised in
>> the "Stone Age" of computers.
>
>> Errr.... and so was I!!!
>
> Of course, when I was born, computers were even less advanced. That was the
> era
> when the IBM 704, with convenient *core* memory - and *hardware
> floating-point*
> - was hot stuff!


I thought that the IBM 704 used Williams tubes for memory...

--

numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
Re: I Feel Old [message #307395 is a reply to message #307351] Mon, 04 January 2016 16:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> wrote:
> In article <7db2ed440bca8c0-13432@gmail.com>,
> Uncle Steve <stevet810@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 01, 2016 at 03:57:43PM -0800, Quadibloc wrote:
>>> On Friday, January 1, 2016 at 3:00:04 PM UTC-7, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes we have come a very long way indeed. It makes you wonder what
>>>> another 35 years will bring.
>>>
>>> Of course, the pace of progress is slowing a bit. Dennard scaling has already
>>> gone by the boards, and Moore's Law has only a bit more life left in it.
>>
>> Well, we haven't hit the atomic wall yet. While we seem to be
>> reaching the limits of bulk manufacturing processes, the atom-by-atom
>> approach remains to be explored. This represents something of a
>> discontinuity to the stately progression of Moore's law, but I am too
>> ignorant of science to project its limitation in terms of processor
>> clock speed, information density, heat dissipation, etc.
>
> The first real, hard wall we are going to see is one of money. As the
> fabs get tuned for smaller, faster layouts they go more than linearly
> up in investment cost. Even IBM and Intel have huge issues about financing
> their current ones, and even small/faster ones are going to take a lot
> of depreciation time; i.e. the expansion will slowly peter to a halt
> a good bit before the fundamental physical constants are reached.

I think IBM has now gotten out of the chip business. They sold everything
to GlobalFoundries, if it's been approved by now.


--
Pete
Re: I Feel Old [message #307400 is a reply to message #307393] Mon, 04 January 2016 16:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 3:55:37 PM UTC-5, Charles Richmond wrote:

> I thought that the IBM 704 used Williams tubes for memory...

IIRC, only the 701 and 702 used Williams tubes for memory, and
they were later retrofit with core memory.

Williams tubes were rather unreliable. As soon as core memory
became practical, the industry jumped on it. Later, there were
patent suits over it. I think Jay Forrester got the credit. Don't
know what credit A. Wang got, though he made major contributions.

As an aside, Germany in WW II used material in electronics that
served as the basis for cores. (apologize for Godwin's violation).
This is discussed in the first volume of the IBM history.

I think subsequent IBM machines used core memory until 'monolithics'.
Re: I Feel Old [message #307401 is a reply to message #307395] Mon, 04 January 2016 16:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hancock4 is currently offline  hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 4:10:40 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:

> I think IBM has now gotten out of the chip business. They sold everything
> to GlobalFoundries, if it's been approved by now.

Does IBM _manufacture_ anything now?

It's weird. When you go to the website of a company today, they
don't tell you their product list. Rather, they speak of "solutions"
in fancy language. This includes old companies like IBM or Lucent,
and some of the old companies I found in C&A that are still in business.

IBM has stuff online about their Z13, but it's very technical. I
wonder how many people actually understand what they're saying
and the impact for what they want to do.

Admittedly, a lot of the computer sales literature of 50-60 years
ago was just as opaque. Obviously, the typical businessmen who
would make the decision to buy a computer was clueless as to
mircoseconds or density. It was very rare that there'd be an
ad claiming the XYZ computer could get out the payroll at 30%
less cost than with manual methods---the real question a decision
maker would want to know.

As the industry moved from tab machines to basic computers
and from basic computers to fancy ones, I know decision makers
from the old days grew increasingly frustrated with slow
development of systems (I heard many complain). They did not
give a crap that System/360 has "Solid logic technology", or
that their company's S/360 had 128k vs. only 16k in their old
1401. They did want to know why it took so damn long to add
a new application to their accounting systems.

IBM and the others were pretty good at confusing the issue.

(I will give a lot of credit to my comp sci prof back at
college. He did not allow buzz words, and he expected
precise figures and specifics on statements of improvement
in proposals. In other words, he would not accept, "the
new system will improve payroll processing", rather, he
expected something like "the new system will get out the
payroll in 20% less time because manual adjustment calculations
will now be automatically done.")
Re: I Feel Old [message #307416 is a reply to message #307338] Mon, 04 January 2016 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 04-Jan-16 09:29, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Saturday, January 2, 2016 at 8:56:48 PM UTC-5, Stephen Sprunk wrote:
>> Most US companies that had pension plans went bankrupt long ago, often
>> in large part due to those very pension plans because they were either
>> underfunded or the target of corporate raiders.
>
> FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70
> because his old company was raided and his pension substantially
> decreased. The successor company treats their people like serfs,
> and is very quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky
> to have a job.

Yes, that was a serious problem, particularly in the 1980s; lots of
people lost their pensions to corporate raiders, which should never have
been allowed to happen. Worse, raiders often left targets bankrupt, so
workers lost their jobs too, not just their pensions.

Worse, older workers often couldn't find similar-paying jobs elsewhere,
so not only did they have little time to make up for the lost pension,
but they didn't have enough income to even try.

This is why employer-managed pensions are such a horrible idea, as are
401(k) plans that allow investing in the employer's stock.

>> Most of the few remaining ones offer pensions only to union
>> employees or those over a certain age; younger or non-union
>> employees have only a 401(k) or similar plan available.
>
> Many people who have a 401k have not done well with them.
> Individual everyday people do not have the skills to pick a competent
> fund manager nor manage the funds themselves.

That's exactly why mutual funds exist!

> Many have not recovered from the 2007 crash.

401(k)/IRA/etc. plans invested in mutual funds (often the only option
available), particularly index funds, should have recovered long ago.

The only exceptions are people who sold stocks and/or bought bonds at
the bottom, but even _they_ should be doing okay by now too, just not as
well as those who rode it out.

> (Not helping is that some fund managers were outright crooks,
> charging excessively high fees.)

For an index fund, if you're paying more than 1% in "management" fees,
you're getting ripped off.

For a non-index fund, you're getting ripped off regardless.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Re: I Feel Old [message #307420 is a reply to message #307393] Mon, 04 January 2016 20:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quadibloc is currently offline  Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Monday, January 4, 2016 at 1:55:37 PM UTC-7, Charles Richmond wrote:

> I thought that the IBM 704 used Williams tubes for memory...

No, that was the 701.

John Savard
Re: I Feel Old [message #307421 is a reply to message #307338] Mon, 04 January 2016 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel is currently offline  Anne &amp; Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> FWIW, one of my friends will have to work until he's age 70
> because his old company was raided and his pension substantially
> decreased. The successor company treats their people like serfs,
> and is very quick to remind those they kept that they're lucky
> to have a job.

one of the major victims of the triple-A ratings on (toxic) securitized
mortgages/loans were pension funds that were limited to only investing
in "safe investments" (claims that it took 30% on funds and trillions in
fund shortfall) over $27T total was done 2001-2008.

Top executives are manipulating pension plans to juice the bottom line
for and their bonuses ... as referenced in prevous post regarding
Welch & GE Capital. But there is much long litney chronicled ... some
IBM specific:
http://www.ibmemployee.com/RetirementHeist.shtml
from this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Retirement-Heist-Companies-American-eb ook/dp/B003QMLC6K/

wallstreet and public employee pension funds

Lehman's Gift To Jeb Bush For Funneling Pension Money: A $1.3 Million Consulting "Job"
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-19/lehmans-gift-jeb-bu sh-funneling-pension-money-13-million-consulting-job

private-equity are buying companies and looting the victim companies
(including pension plans) posts mentioning private equity
http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/submisc.html#private.equity

but they also are then selling "high-yield" (junk) bonds to public
employee pension funds (aka, industry got such bad rep ing S&L crisis,
that they changed their name to "private-equity" and junk bonds became
high-yield bonds).

long, ongoing litney involving calpers (but cal. isn't the only one,
just one of the largest)
http://www.sacbee.com/2014/07/01/6524138/former-calpers-ceo- buenrostro.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/07/former-calpers-ceo-pl eads-guilty-bribery-fraud-including-taking-cash-paper-bags.h tml
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/07/orange-county-registe r-attacks-lack-public-pension-fund-transparency-cites-suit-c alpers.html
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2506775-to-calpers-go-small- and-go-young-or-get-out
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-19/first-calpers-now-t exas-teachers-cut-hedge-fund-exposure
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/10/gretchen-morgenson-da mage-private-equity-secrecy-mention-calpers-suit.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/10/private-equity-consul tants-flounder-question-abusive-evergreen-fees-calpers-board -meeting.html
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2688805-is-calpers-a-canary- in-the-coal-mine
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/04/investors-like-calper s-and-new-york-city-in-the-dark-about-private-equity-fees.ht ml
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/06/top-private-equity-re porter-calpers-is-either-lying-or-has-a-massive-breakdown-in -financial-controls.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/sacramento-bee-report s-on-calpers-fee-lapses.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/07/california-state-trea surer-takes-up-calpers-private-equity-carry-fee-reporting-la pse-after-nc-readers-press-him.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/08/leading-pension-consu ltant-pca-shills-for-private-equity-firms-in-calperscalstrs- carry-fee-row.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/08/senior-private-equity -officers-at-calpers-do-not-understand-how-the-general-partn ers-make-money.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/fortunes-dan-primack- takes-up-calpers-private-equity-scandal-calls-head-of-privat e-equity-factually-wrong.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/financial-times-joins -the-party-on-calpers-and-links-to-naked-capitalism.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/wsjs-carried-interest -comic-strip-mocks-calpers.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/how-calpers-consultan t-pension-consulting-alliance-is-more-loyal-to-private-equit y-than-its-clients.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/california-readers-ca tch-on-kpfa-this-friday-at-730-am-discussing-calpers-and-cal strs.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/mission-impossible-st ar-alec-baldwin-retweets-yves-post-on-calpers-capture-by-pri vate-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/the-larger-implicatio ns-of-calpers-staff-and-board-incompetence-in-private-equity .html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/former-california-off icial-blasts-calpers-ceo-anne-stausboll-staff-and-board-for- misconduct.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/former-state-chief-in vestment-officer-tells-calpers-and-calstrs-to-fire-consultan t-pca-over-proposed-fix-for-poor-private-equityperformance.h tml
http://www.businessinsider.com/r-calpers-officers-propose-lo wer-investment-targets-wsj-2015-10
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/after-nc-media-covera ge-of-calpers-and-calstrs-private-equity-fee-lapses-treasure r-john-chiang-calls-for-legislation.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/10/oxford-professor-scho ols-calpers-contrary-to-board-presentation-private-equity-is -most-expensive-asset-class-by-far.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/11/the-bigger-significan ce-of-calpers-private-equity-carry-fee-release-another-nail- in-the-carried-interest-tax-loophole-coffin.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/11/harvard-professor-jos h-lerner-gives-weak-and-internally-contradictory-plug-for-pr ivate-equity-at-calpers-workshop.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/how-calpers-lies-to-i tself-and-others-to-justify-investing-in-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/we-discuss-private-eq uity-calpers-and-its-tainted-counsel-on-harry-shearers-le-sh ow-this-sunday.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/more-on-how-calpers-l ies-to-itself-and-others-to-justify-investing-in-private-equ ity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/former-california-off icial-blasts-calpers-ceo-anne-stausboll-for-betrayal-of-trus t-in-hiring-scandal-ridden-fiduciary-counsel.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/how-calpers-violated- california-open-meeting-laws-to-stifle-private-equity-skepti cs.html
http://www.capoliticalreview.com/capoliticalnewsandviews/cor ruption-again-calpers-keeping-lobbying-records-secret-from-i ts-board-members/
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/how-calpers-fails-to- use-its-leverage-in-private-equity.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/san-diego-union-tribu ne-editorial-attacks-calpers-over-half-hearted-plan-to-lower -return-targets.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/our-bloomberg-op-ed-o n-calpers-plan-to-get-rid-of-private-equity-risk-by-ignoring -it.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/we-won-a-fight-agains t-calpers-over-its-plan-to-ignore-private-equity-risk.html
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/12/the-twelve-days-of-ca lpers.html

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
Re: I Feel Old [message #307422 is a reply to message #307371] Mon, 04 January 2016 20:48 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Stephen Sprunk is currently offline  Stephen Sprunk
Messages: 2166
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 04-Jan-16 12:59, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Morten Reistad wrote:
>> That a corporate raider can get at more than a single digit
>> percentage of an employee pension fund.
>
> What often happens after a corporate raid is that the resulting
> company is loaded down with heavy debt. Pension debt is one of the
> things that becomes 'unsustainable' and somehow, corporations are
> able to convince the courts to be allowed to shed it.

The only way a corporation can "shed" a debt, including pension debt, is
to declare bankruptcy.

However, pension debt falls under unpaid wages, which is one of the
_last_ debts to get paid in bankruptcy proceedings, and a bankrupt
company usually runs out of assets long before reaching that.

A typical corporate raider would sell junk bonds to generate cash to
fund a hostile takeover, pay off those junk bonds with the company's
pension funds (and any other assets they could sell), keep whatever was
left for themselves as a "management fee", and then let the company go
bankrupt because it had nothing left to pay its own debts.

> For instance, on the very same day, the business page of the Phila
> Inqr reported that the owners of American Airlines reported record
> profits, as well as reporting that same owners went to the courts to
> abrogate their pension obligations as being too onerous.

I see nothing in the news about AA's pensions since early 2012, which
was related to filing for bankruptcy in late 2011--when AA was facing
record losses, not profits.

Unlike its competitors, AA didn't take advantage of a 2006 law allowing
airlines to defer pension contributions; in 2014, they asked Congress to
extend the deadline so they can be on an even footing, but that doesn't
affect their obligations. When the bill eventually comes due, all of
the airlines will be back in bankruptcy court yet again. I wonder if
they get frequent filer miles?

> Years ago pensions had more protection.

No, raiders (and execs) are just getting better at exploiting the holes
that have always been there--and that Congress refuses to fix.

> For instance, I don't believe pensions were impacted during the Penn
> Central bankruptcy.

Penn Central never _had_ a pension plan; they were part of Railroad
Retirement, so they didn't need one--unlike non-railroad employers who
were/are stuck with inferior Social Security.

However, the bankruptcy of Penn Central and many other railroads did
indirectly force Congress to restructure Railroad Retirement so that
workers could move between the two systems without starting over.

S

--
Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein
CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the
K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking
Pages (7): [ «    1  2  3  4  5  6  7    »]  Switch to threaded view of this topic Create a new topic Submit Reply
Previous Topic: IBM modern FORTRAN
Next Topic: the legacy of Seymour Cray
Goto Forum:
  

-=] Back to Top [=-
[ Syndicate this forum (XML) ] [ RSS ] [ PDF ]

Current Time: Thu Mar 28 18:38:04 EDT 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.05930 seconds