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AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301156] Fri, 25 September 2015 03:48 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: groink_hi

I have what looks to be a Wong Hung Lo brand AP-64e. It isn't working at the moment, so I'm slowly learning how this card functions, using Mark Cumming's schematics and Apple-Seed cloning guide.

There are some radial capacitors that is confusing me - C1 and C6. There are some conflicting information:

- Cumming's schematics say C1 is 10uF 16V, and C6 is 22uF 50V

- Apple-Seed says C1 is 2.2uF 25V, and C6 is 10uF 16V

- My card has C6 at 2.2uF 16V, and C1 at 47uF 25V

Also, the inductor below U1 differs:

- Cumming's schematics has this at 1000uH

- Apple-Seed and my card has this at 100uH

For those of you who have this card, can you see what's on your card? The original cards should have AP-64e near the textool socket.

Thanks!

--- Bryan
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301160 is a reply to message #301156] Fri, 25 September 2015 05:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Fred Smith

On 2015-09-25, groink_hi <groink1@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have what looks to be a Wong Hung Lo brand AP-64e. It isn't
working at the moment, so I'm slowly learning how this card
functions, using Mark Cumming's schematics and Apple-Seed cloning
guide.
>
> There are some radial capacitors that is confusing me - C1 and
C6. There are some conflicting information:
>
> - Cumming's schematics say C1 is 10uF 16V, and C6 is 22uF 50V
>
> - Apple-Seed says C1 is 2.2uF 25V, and C6 is 10uF 16V
>
> - My card has C6 at 2.2uF 16V, and C1 at 47uF 25V
>
> Also, the inductor below U1 differs:
>
> - Cumming's schematics has this at 1000uH
>
> - Apple-Seed and my card has this at 100uH
>
> For those of you who have this card, can you see what's on your
card? The original cards should have AP-64e near the textool
socket.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --- Bryan

My card (which doesn't have any manufacturer's insignia on it
anywhere, not even a serial number!) has C1 labelled ".12" or
",12" or maybe ".1Z" (it's pretty old!).

Whatever it is, C1, C2, C5, C6, C8 and C9 are all the same little
orange tantalum (?) electrolytic capacitor types on mine. The look
like 0.1uF or 1uF decoupling caps to me, to keep down noise on the
supply rails.

The inductor has red-violet-black-silver bands, which I read as
27uH, 10% tolerance.

fred.
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301183 is a reply to message #301156] Fri, 25 September 2015 12:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael J. Mahon is currently offline  Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
groink_hi <groink1@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have what looks to be a Wong Hung Lo brand AP-64e. It isn't working at
> the moment, so I'm slowly learning how this card functions, using Mark
> Cumming's schematics and Apple-Seed cloning guide.
>
> There are some radial capacitors that is confusing me - C1 and C6. There
> are some conflicting information:
>
> - Cumming's schematics say C1 is 10uF 16V, and C6 is 22uF 50V
>
> - Apple-Seed says C1 is 2.2uF 25V, and C6 is 10uF 16V
>
> - My card has C6 at 2.2uF 16V, and C1 at 47uF 25V
>
> Also, the inductor below U1 differs:
>
> - Cumming's schematics has this at 1000uH
>
> - Apple-Seed and my card has this at 100uH
>
> For those of you who have this card, can you see what's on your card? The
> original cards should have AP-64e near the textool socket.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --- Bryan

These sound like the components in the programming voltage generator.

The values should not be critical, but the programming voltage is as high
as 20 volts, so I'd keep the capacitor voltage ratings at 25v or above
(electrolytic capacitors are smaller now than they used to be).

The inductor value is pretty high (I don't know what frequency it's driven
at), but it should be OK (we have to assume that the card once worked).

Power the card, put it in "programming mode" and measure the programming
voltage. If it's close to correct, it should be fine.
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://michaeljmahon.com
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301212 is a reply to message #301183] Sat, 26 September 2015 02:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Antoine Vignau is currently offline  Antoine Vignau
Messages: 1860
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Hi,

some pics @ http://www.brutaldeluxe.fr/public/ap64e/
manual & friends @ http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Pr oject/Interface%20Cards/Chip%20Programmers/AP-64e%20Eprom%20 Writer/

C1 & C6 = 10uF 16V

av
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301236 is a reply to message #301212] Sun, 27 September 2015 06:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: groink_hi

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:51:27 PM UTC-10, Antoine Vignau wrote:
> Hi,
>
> some pics @ http://www.brutaldeluxe.fr/public/ap64e/
> manual & friends @ http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Pr oject/Interface%20Cards/Chip%20Programmers/AP-64e%20Eprom%20 Writer/
>
> C1 & C6 = 10uF 16V
>
> av

It sounds like I can use any combination of caps (C1 and C6) on this card. It doesn't appear that C6 is in play when it comes to programming the EPROM.. Looks like it is a typical cap that just cleans the +5V rail coming in from the expansion slot, common on many Apple II cards. The key appears to be 1) C1 should be 25V or more, and 2) the trimming resistor that is used to adjust the programming voltage generated by the TL497. And, it sounds like this card is limited to just EPROMs that can be programmed at 21V. In other words, if I have an EPROM that requires 25V or 12.5V, then forget about it!

Is all of that right?
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301237 is a reply to message #301236] Sun, 27 September 2015 07:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Patrick Schaefer is currently offline  Patrick Schaefer
Messages: 67
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Am 27.09.2015 12:48 schrieb groink_hi:

> It doesn't appear that C6 is in play when it comes to programming
> the EPROM. Looks like it is a typical cap that just cleans the +5V
> rail coming in from the expansion slot, common on many Apple II cards.

Exactly. Any value between 10 and 47µF at 16 or 25 V should do.

> The key appears to be 1) C1 should be 25V or more, and 2) the trimming
> resistor that is used to adjust the programming voltage generated by
> the TL497.

C1 should have a voltage rating of 35 V because Vpp is adjusted to 25.0
V (using the trimmer). For 21 V devices, a zener diode is switched onto
the Vpp rail with S1-7.

12.5 V devices cannot be programmed without modifications.


Patrick
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301238 is a reply to message #301236] Sun, 27 September 2015 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: groink_hi

On Sunday, September 27, 2015 at 12:48:34 AM UTC-10, groink_hi wrote:
> On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 8:51:27 PM UTC-10, Antoine Vignau wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> some pics @ http://www.brutaldeluxe.fr/public/ap64e/
>> manual & friends @ http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Pr oject/Interface%20Cards/Chip%20Programmers/AP-64e%20Eprom%20 Writer/
>>
>> C1 & C6 = 10uF 16V
>>
>> av
>
> It sounds like I can use any combination of caps (C1 and C6) on this card.. It doesn't appear that C6 is in play when it comes to programming the EPROM. Looks like it is a typical cap that just cleans the +5V rail coming in from the expansion slot, common on many Apple II cards. The key appears to be 1) C1 should be 25V or more, and 2) the trimming resistor that is used to adjust the programming voltage generated by the TL497. And, it sounds like this card is limited to just EPROMs that can be programmed at 21V. In other words, if I have an EPROM that requires 25V or 12.5V, then forget about it!
>
> Is all of that right?

One change to that.... It seems that the programming power can range from 21V to 25V. Is that because the EPROM can handle that range? For ex, VPP is 21V, with a +/- 0.5V on an ST part. I'd then would assume there are other manufacturers where their chips say 25V, but will still work at 21V. Is that right?
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301242 is a reply to message #301238] Sun, 27 September 2015 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Patrick Schaefer is currently offline  Patrick Schaefer
Messages: 67
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Am 27.09.2015 13:23 schrieb groink_hi:

> (...) I'd then would assume
> there are other manufacturers where their chips say 25V, but will still
> work at 21V. Is that right?

No. That might work for a short period of time, but such an EPROM would
forget its contents very soon. Use 25 V (S1-7 open) for 25 V devices and
21 V (S1-7 closed) for 21 V parts.


Patrick
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #301246 is a reply to message #301156] Sun, 27 September 2015 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Antony Mauget

Hello,

For the record, I have 2 AP-64e cards :

C1 = 47µF / 35V
C6 = 10µF / 25V
Inductor = Brown / Black / Brown => 100µH

C1 = 47µF / 50V
C6 = 22µF / 16V
Inductor = Brown / Black / Brown / Silver => 100µH / +-10%

HTH

--
________________
Antony
Apple II forever
Re: AP-64e Programmer Re-visited [message #311807 is a reply to message #301156] Sat, 13 February 2016 13:07 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: apple.iiegs

On Friday, September 25, 2015 at 5:18:11 PM UTC+9:30, groink_hi wrote:
> I have what looks to be a Wong Hung Lo brand AP-64e. It isn't working at the moment, so I'm slowly learning how this card functions, using Mark Cumming's schematics and Apple-Seed cloning guide.
>
> There are some radial capacitors that is confusing me - C1 and C6. There are some conflicting information:
>
> - Cumming's schematics say C1 is 10uF 16V, and C6 is 22uF 50V
>
> - Apple-Seed says C1 is 2.2uF 25V, and C6 is 10uF 16V
>
> - My card has C6 at 2.2uF 16V, and C1 at 47uF 25V
>
> Also, the inductor below U1 differs:
>
> - Cumming's schematics has this at 1000uH
>
> - Apple-Seed and my card has this at 100uH
>
> For those of you who have this card, can you see what's on your card? The original cards should have AP-64e near the textool socket.
>
> Thanks!
>
> --- Bryan

hi Bryan,

I reverse engineered that schematic from my own AP-64E so there was a possibility of errors, some of which you have highlighted. I have checked my AP-64E card again, which is probably a clone by the look of it, and found that there are errors on the diagram for which I apologise. I hope my reply will clarify those errors. It seems as though a few others have already provided the correct answers before me.

The component designators are not on my card or diagram but I'll try to use the references in this thread.

C6 (the electro cap between +5V and GND) is 10uF 16V on my card. Anything 10V rating or more should be fine. A higher value of 22uF as others have mentioned should be fine also.

C1 (the electro cap near the trim pot) is 2.2uF 50V on my card, not 22uF as per my drawing. As others have pointed out use 35V or higher rating as the Vpp voltage is adjustable on my card from 18.8V to 27.6V. If you use a 25V cap for C1 you might let the magic smoke out :) To make the Vpp adjustment SW1-7 should be OFF with EPROMs removed. adjust the trimpot for a 25V to 25.25V reading across C6. When SW-7 is ON it would pull this down to ~21V because of Zener D2, but you may not see this unless your card is running. Just to explain this a bit further, most 2764s used a Vpp of 21V where 2716 or 2732 usually were Vpp of 25V. Unfortunately the programmer is not designed to use 12.5V types.

L1 (the inductor below TL497AC IC) is actually 100uH on my card. I only just discovered this after investigating today. Although the component is coloured BROWN-BLACK-BROWN-SILVER (100uH), my board is incorrectly printed as 1000uH. I confirmed this with my LCR meter which I only purchased last month.. I never checked the value when I made the drawing, just assumed that what was printed on the board was correct.

Although it may be possible to make a simple modification to the board so that a Vpp of 12.5 or 12.75V was available, the firmware in ROM would also need to be changed as the standard programming algorithm is a single 50ms pulse per address and this would need to be changed to multiple 100us pulses for those EPROMs. The programming algorithm is significantly different.

If you find any more errors or have any more questions I will try and answer.

cheers,

Mark C
in Oz
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