Article-I.D.: caip.831
Posted: Mon Dec 23 18:57:21 1985
Date-Received: Wed, 25-Dec-85 03:28:46 EST
Sender: daemon@caip.RUTGERS.EDU
Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J.
Lines: 22

From: Eric 

Hi,

 Well, I got a chance to look at MaxiDesk the other day and can
only say that I wholehartedly agree with Perry about it. I can't
believe that a manfacturer would charge money for such trash! I
suggest that everyone beware of this product - put it through it's
paces before you buy it - don't just take my word for it. I think
it's a prefect example of a beautiful piece of hardware running
the most awfull software conceivable.

 On a brighter note, Deluxe Paint from Electronic Arts looks awesome
(at least the pictures I saw produced with it did!). I only had a few
minutes to play with it and barely touched all of it's capabilities,
but I do want to play with it more! Hopefully my dealer will have it
in soon. I'm really looking forward to Deluxe Music Construction Set
now - has anyone heard dates for it's release? - how about Marble
Madness? (after all, all work and no play... :-)...)

Eric
-------

Article-I.D.: uscvax.185
Posted: Thu Jan  2 02:23:59 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 3-Jan-86 04:02:00 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU>
Organization: CS&CE Depts, U.S.C., Los Angeles, CA
Lines: 19

 >   On a brighter note, Deluxe Paint from Electronic Arts looks awesome
 >  (at least the pictures I saw produced with it did!). I only had a few
 >  minutes to play with it and barely touched all of it's capabilities,
 >  but I do want to play with it more! Hopefully my dealer will have it
 >  in soon.

 >  
 >  Eric

Does anybody know or have pointers about the IFF file format that Electronic
Arts is supposedly using for storing their graphics images?

Marco Papa
USC - Computer Science Dept.

UUCP:	...!{decvax,ucbvax,hplabs}!sdcsvax!sdcrdcf!uscvax!papa
	...!{allegra,trwrb,trwspp,ism780,cithep,oberon}!uscvax!papa
CSNET:	papa@usc-cse.csnet
ARPA:	papa%usc-cse@csnet-relay.arpa

Article-I.D.: amiga.482
Posted: Mon Jan  6 15:39:35 1986
Date-Received: Wed, 8-Jan-86 06:07:28 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: bruceb@hunter.UUCP (Bruce Barrett)
Organization: Commodore-Amiga Inc., 983 University Ave #D, Los Gatos CA 95030
Lines: 7


The IFF format is defined and documented in the new (V1.1) ROM Kernel
manual.  It should be out "real soon now" (I hope).

Also Commodore (Westchester, PA) now has, and is reproducing,
the V1.1 developers kits (IBM cross and Native).  Again look for it soon.
--BruceB

Article-I.D.: utcs.1048
Posted: Fri Jan 10 00:25:01 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 10-Jan-86 00:32:53 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: wagner@utcs.UUCP (Michael Wagner)
Organization: University of Toronto - General Purpose UNIX
Lines: 52
Summary: 


I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange.
Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure.
First off, unlike everything else I have gotten so far, the instructions
make no mention of backing up the disk.  I don't tend to let that worry
me....I've been around long enough to make backups of my disks without
waiting for the documentation to remind me.

Unfortunately, using the standard drag-the-icon-over-an-empty-disk-icon
method of backing up a disk fails with a sector header error on the source
disk.  Awfully suspicious.  Seems to be repeatable.

So then I used copy from CLI to make a new disk.  Grinds forever, but is
actually copying things.  Directories look similar afterwards (didn't do
a logical byte-by-byte compare - is there one?).  The copy boots, shows
the paint can, does some more I/O (including to the second drive with 
nothing in it), then quietly puts the machine to sleep.  Only rebooting
will re-awaken it.

Well, now, the I/O to the second disk intrigued me, so I put the original
disknto the second drive, rebooted, and got to the point where it had died . 
before.  This time, much more flashing on the second drive, then Poof...it
came up.

At this point, I'm postulating that the program has some copy protection 
scheme whereby the original (presumably subtly damaged) disk must be online
somewhere during the initial boot-up.  After that, you can (seemingly) remove
the original and run on the copy.

Does anyone know if I am surmising correctly?  Can anyone confirm or 
contradict this from their experiences?

I guess the reason this all bothers me is (a) nowhere did it say that I was
buying a copy-protected program (I might not have bought it had I known), and
(b) the disk is starting to scream and whistle and play tunes when accessed.
It's the only one of 15 disks I have that is so musical.  In all my years,
I have never really gotten complacent about the sounds of disks crashing,
and this one sure sounds like it is on it's way.  At that point, I have no
idea what policies of return and so forth Electronic Arts subscribes to, but
I am betting that I will be without the usage of my program for at least a
while.

While I sound very calm about all this, I am actually rather upset.  I just
don't emote well in ASCII.  But if only I could speak, face to face, with
the executive who thought he was doing his company some good by making his
program less than reliable .....................................

Michael

P.S. I expect Electronic Arts is a name registered in some legal way or 
     other.  But then, they don't seem to respect my integrity, so why
should I worry about their name?

Article-I.D.: well.477
Posted: Sun Jan 12 18:33:30 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 14-Jan-86 05:10:07 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP> <1048@utcs.uucp>
Organization: Whole Earth Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA
Lines: 26

In article <1048@utcs.uucp>, wagner@utcs.uucp (Michael Wagner) writes:
 >  
 >  I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange.
 >  Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure.
{ deleted lines go here } 
 >  I guess the reason this all bothers me is (a) nowhere did it say that I was
 >  buying a copy-protected program (I might not have bought it had I known), and
 >  (b) the disk is starting to scream and whistle and play tunes when accessed.
 >  It's the only one of 15 disks I have that is so musical.  In all my years,
 >  I have never really gotten complacent about the sounds of disks crashing,
 >  and this one sure sounds like it is on it's way.

   Electronic Arts has a reputation in the micro world as being one of the
companies most dedicated to copy protection.  Some friends of mine own a
Commodore 64, and had no disk drive problems until they bought an EA product.
After using the EA program, and listening to the grinding and crunching noise
the disk drive made, they found that they needed their drive re-aligned!

   One would hope that EA will "see the light" eventually.  They generally do
a good job, but their die-hard attitude on copy-protection is a BIG loser.


-- 
           Mike Farren
           uucp: {your favorite backbone site}!hplabs!well!farren
           Fido: Sci-Fido, Fidonode 125/84, (415)655-0667

Article-I.D.: intelca.179
Posted: Mon Jan 13 12:06:30 1986
Date-Received: Wed, 15-Jan-86 08:00:25 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP> <1048@utcs.uucp>
Organization: Intel, Santa Clara, Ca.
Lines: 25

 >  
 >  I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange.
 >  Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure.
 >  First off, unlike everything else I have gotten so far, the instructions
 >  make no mention of backing up the disk.  I don't tend to let that worry
 >  me....I've been around long enough to make backups of my disks without
 >  waiting for the documentation to remind me.
 > 
This is unfortunately true, ALL of EA's software is copyprotected with some
sort of 'key disk' system. It is truly discouraging that they would put 
dpaint in the same category as 'game software'. You should also know that
MaxiComm (from EA) is also copy protected. If you don't like it give them
a call and complain. If enough of us do that they just might change their
attitude.

--Chuck

P.S. The instructions do make one mention of backing up the disk, they
     recomend that you send them an ADDITIONAL $10 for a 'backup' copy.

-- 
                                            - - - D I S C L A I M E R - - - 
{ihnp4,fortune}!dual\                     All opinions expressed herein are my
        {qantel,idi}-> !intelca!cem       own and not those of my employer, my
 {ucbvax,hao}!hplabs/                     friends, or my avocado plant. :-}

Article-I.D.: ism780c.250
Posted: Tue Jan 14 22:03:53 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 17-Jan-86 01:34:30 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP> <1048@utcs.uucp> <179@intelca.UUCP>
Reply-To: tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith)
Organization: Interactive Systems Corp., Santa Monica, CA
Lines: 18

In article <179@intelca.UUCP> cem@intelca.UUCP (Chuck McManis) writes:

 >  This is unfortunately true, ALL of EA's software is copyprotected
 >  with some sort of 'key disk' system.

The thing I found most obnoxious when I bought an EA program ( for
another computer, not the Amiga ), was that the manual doesn't mention
that it is a key disk!  The program doesn't ask for the key disk, it
just crashes!  I called and complained about that, and they said it was
done that way on purpose.

 >  It is truly discouraging that they would put dpaint in the same
 >  category as 'game software'.

Maybe they are putting it in the same category as spreadsheets and
databases.
--
Tim Smith       sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim

Article-I.D.: ism780c.249
Posted: Tue Jan 14 21:55:00 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 17-Jan-86 01:36:19 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP> <1048@utcs.uucp> <477@well.UUCP>
Reply-To: tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith)
Organization: Interactive Systems Corp., Santa Monica, CA
Lines: 25

In article <477@well.UUCP> farren@well.UUCP (Mike Farren) writes:

 >    Electronic Arts has a reputation in the micro world as being one of the
 > companies most dedicated to copy protection.  Some friends of mine own a
 > Commodore 64, and had no disk drive problems until they bought an EA product.
 > After using the EA program, and listening to the grinding and crunching noise
 > the disk drive made, they found that they needed their drive re-aligned!
 > 
 >    One would hope that EA will "see the light" eventually.  They generally do
 > a good job, but their die-hard attitude on copy-protection is a BIG loser.
 > 

EA is considering dropping copy protection.  They left a note on the Amiga
Forum on compuserve asking how much more poeple would be willing to pay
for unprotected versions of programs.  Most of the people responding said
thay would be willing to pay $10 to $30 more for unprotected programs.

If you have a dis-assembler, EA copy protection can be quite amusing to
look at ( at least if they do it on the Amiga like they do on the Mac ).
I would have never on my own thought of calling a routine by setting the
divide by zero vector to point to the routine, and then entering a weird
loop that does a divide by zero after a few hundred iterations!  Yow, are
we having fun yet?
--
Tim Smith       sdcrdcf!ism780c!tim || ima!ism780!tim || ihnp4!cithep!tim

Article-I.D.: watnot.11396
Posted: Thu Jan 16 16:51:17 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 17-Jan-86 03:18:54 EST
References: <831@caip.RUTGERS.EDU> <185@uscvax.UUCP> <1048@utcs.uucp> <477@well.UUCP> <249@ism780c.UUCP>
Reply-To: atoy@watnot.UUCP (Andy Toy)
Followup-To: net.micro.amiga
Organization: U of Waterloo, Ontario
Lines: 35
Summary: 

In article <249@ism780c.UUCP> tim@ism780c.UUCP (Tim Smith) writes:
 > EA is considering dropping copy protection.  They left a note on the Amiga
 > Forum on compuserve asking how much more poeple would be willing to pay
 > for unprotected versions of programs.  Most of the people responding said
 > thay would be willing to pay $10 to $30 more for unprotected programs.

Why should people pay more money for programs that are not copy-protected?  
Shouldn't they cost less since they don't have to develop a copy-protection 
scheme?  What do you think about those protection keys that come with
some software where you have to plug it into a port or bus on the computer?
Do you think that it would be a better alternative to disk keys?  I can
see that this would cost the companies more to provide this kind of key, 
therefore the price should increase, but then the disk can be backed-up as
much as you like.  That might be okay if the key doesn't wear out your
expansion bus or whichever port it plugs into.  Well, enough said.  I'm
going to call EA and let them know my opinions on copy-protection. You
should too.

I think that discussion about types of copy-protection should be
discussed in this newsgroup because it affects your hardware, adversely
in the case of key disks, and a viable solution should be found.  It is
important to Amiga owners that these key disks, if they must be used,
must not cause you to go see your authorized repair centre more frequently.

-- 
  Andy Toy, Mapping Analysis and Design Group (MAD), 
  Faculty of Environmental Studies, University of Waterloo,
  Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA N2L 3G1   (519) 885-1211 x6563
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
| UUCP:   ...!{utzoo|decvax|ihnp4|clyde|allegra}!watmath!watdcsu!atoy   |
# ARPA:   atoy%watdcsu%waterloo.csnet@csnet-relay.arpa                  #
| CSNET:  atoy%watdcsu@waterloo.csnet                                   |
# EAN:    atoy@dcsu.waterloo.cdn                                        #
| BITNET: atoy at watdcsu                                               |
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Article-I.D.: uiucuxc.148600033
Posted: Wed Jan 15 15:15:00 1986
Date-Received: Fri, 17-Jan-86 06:50:38 EST
References: <185@uscvax.UUCP>
Lines: 8
Nf-ID: #R:uscvax.UUCP:185:uiucuxc:148600033:000:327
Nf-From: uiucuxc.CSO.UIUC.EDU!hamilton    Jan 15 14:15:00 1986


 > I have DeluxePaint, and I've noticed a few things that seem strange.
 > Together, they smack of copy protection, but I'm not sure.

    if it looks like CP, sounds like CP, and smells like CP, guess
what it is?  i'm waiting for aegis to come out with their paint
program; they've promised it won't be protected.
	wayne hamilton

Article-I.D.: uicsl.151400014
Posted: Thu Jan 16 12:36:00 1986
Date-Received: Tue, 21-Jan-86 07:02:09 EST
References: <185@uscvax.UUCP>
Lines: 37
Nf-ID: #R:uscvax.UUCP:185:uicsl:151400014:000:1641
Nf-From: uicsl.UUCP!hr    Jan 16 11:36:00 1986


RE: Deluxe Paint

...Is Deluxe Paint copy protected?..

I think that it almost certainly is copy protected. When I tried
to use diskcopy, I got a missing sector header message on sector 30 (approx).
(This is not the same as a bad sector.) Activision seems to use the
same mechanism to protect Hacker and Mindshadow. (Their missing header
is way at the end).

	A friend ran a magnet over one of his disks then tried to copy
his Activision disk. He got a bad sector (not missing) error when he
tried to run the copied disk. He also tried to boot up Mindshadow and
then switch to a "copied" disk. After awhile, the program checked again
and turned off the ability to pick up anything. By the way, Mindshadow
won't even let you run unless the disk is writeable.

Back to D.P.

If you read your registration card for Deluxe Paint you should find that
for the small sum of $10.00, they will send you a backup copy. I mailed
mine off, but haven't seen anything back yet.

Before a friend had let me copy V1.1 Kickstart, I had been able to run
Deluxe Paint by booting V1.0 workbench then "cd'ing" into DF1: before
typing "run dpaint". The program ran, but any attempt to do a disk
access crashed the system. When I got V1.1, the crashing stopped.
  By the way, "7 Cities of Gold" says that it requires V1.1 and a joystick.
I ran it using V1.0 and an Atari joystick with no apparent problems.

E.A. seems to like fancy startup graphics and heavy copy protection.
(I also have M.U.L.E. for my Atari 800). If I can find a company that
doesn't waste my time with this nonsense, I think I'll change.
----

	harold ravlin		{ihnp4,pur-ee}!uiucdcs!uicsl!hr