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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260519 is a reply to message #260505] Sat, 12 July 2014 04:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Friday, July 11, 2014 6:40:53 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Well. That was incoherent.

Nothing incoherent about it at all.

Only violence (in which law enforcement is a form of "violence") can change behavior.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260520 is a reply to message #260506] Sat, 12 July 2014 04:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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Please keep in mind that the only reason, especially with that new model being so online-based (and only half of what it was ten years ago), is a dictatorial RIAA making it clear with enough enforcement that you can be next -- anytime, anyplace, anywhere.

It's the only reason Ms. Swift still has a music career.

Mike (... and, say, not a modeling one.)
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260537 is a reply to message #260519] Sat, 12 July 2014 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/12/2014 1:41 AM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 6:40:53 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Well. That was incoherent.
>
> Nothing incoherent about it at all.
>
> Only violence (in which law enforcement is a form of "violence") can change behavior.

Nonsense. People stop posting on usenet groups all the time.
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260538 is a reply to message #260518] Sat, 12 July 2014 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/12/2014 1:40 AM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, July 11, 2014 6:33:34 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> You would be wrong.
>
> Where's your sufficient revenue stream?

That one doesn't know the details of the business well enough to know
where all the revenue comes from...or for that matter what constitutes
sufficiency, does not mean that that the company doesn't have a revenue
stream.

I mean I could point out that Japanese cartoons still broadcast on
television and get advertising revenues and that they merchandise the
hell out of them, and that outfits like Amazon and Netflix are paying
for the cartoons in their lineup and that I'm paying something like 20
bucks a week for on-demand access to Japanese cartoons on my cable
system, and that DVDs are in fact STILL being sold, and Japanese
cartoons were being made before they ever broke into the North American
market...but that only raises the question of how much "sufficient" is
versus how much those revenue streams and others we don't know about
are, and neither you nor I have access to the numbers.

However, your apparent belief that they are making no money out of the
business of making cartoons, and are instead somehow magically conjuring
up the money, and only make the cartoons because they are generous
criminals...is pure superstitious nonsense.

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260542 is a reply to message #260538] Sat, 12 July 2014 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:24:57 AM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> That one doesn't know the details of the business well enough to know
> where all the revenue comes from...or for that matter what constitutes
> sufficiency, does not mean that that the company doesn't have a revenue
> stream.

Thanks for completely missing my point.

There is no sufficient and legally-justifiable revenue stream.

Let me show you something from 2012 as a good example.

As part of court documents in a lawsuit between ADV and parties affiliated with Sojitz, ADV was forced to reveal what it paid for 29 different anime titles.

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-01-30/adv-court-do cuments-reveal-amounts-paid-for-29-anime-titles

Again, remember, these are just the amounts for licensure -- no product, to this point, was created.

I put this forward to indicate that there is no justifiable way that ADV could've executed the terms of it's licensure if it did not have the ability or willingness to prevent wholesale piracy of the product.

"How business works" in this country is, on an increasing level, a criminal enterprise based on hoodwinking all other parties to carve out a dollar before the likes of the SEC halt trading on the likes of Cynk Technologies, or the lawsuit between Funimation and Ledford, Greenfield, and Williams in 2011 about the Sojitz transfer.

> I mean I could point out that Japanese cartoons still broadcast on
> television and get advertising revenues and that they merchandise the
> hell out of them, and that outfits like Amazon and Netflix are paying
> for the cartoons in their lineup and that I'm paying something like 20
> bucks a week for on-demand access to Japanese cartoons on my cable
> system, and that DVDs are in fact STILL being sold, and Japanese
> cartoons were being made before they ever broke into the North American
> market...but that only raises the question of how much "sufficient" is
> versus how much those revenue streams and others we don't know about
> are, and neither you nor I have access to the numbers.

And none of those actions you list have legal justification by the people you are paying the money to unless those parties:

a) have the "goddamned piece of paper" indicating they have the right to do it in the first place
and b) enforce that right through proper legal and civil enforcement of the protections provided their intellectual property.

Anything short of that is fraud. Fraud on their part that they misrepresent to the Japanese the ability to protect the Japanese interests, fraud by the Japanese that those interests exist, and fraud to people such as yourself (if you're paying as you are claiming) because the lack of the enforcement ability renders the product to have zero value, and, hence, no interest to own.

DVD's are still being sold? Where and at what price? That's a serious question, since it seems the piracy-led disintegration of the DVD market has pretty much shoved that market back somewhere down toward the underground the video market was in before the boom of the previous decade.

> However, your apparent belief that they are making no money out of the
> business of making cartoons, and are instead somehow magically conjuring
> up the money, and only make the cartoons because they are generous
> criminals...is pure superstitious nonsense.

The fact that they are making money at all (even if they were) is it's own fraud.

The fact that they attempt to is a second fraud.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260543 is a reply to message #260542] Sat, 12 July 2014 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/12/2014 12:59 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:24:57 AM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> That one doesn't know the details of the business well enough to know
>> where all the revenue comes from...or for that matter what constitutes
>> sufficiency, does not mean that that the company doesn't have a revenue
>> stream.
>
> Thanks for completely missing my point.
>
> There is no sufficient and legally-justifiable revenue stream.
>
> Let me show you something from 2012 as a good example.
>
> As part of court documents in a lawsuit between ADV and parties affiliated with Sojitz, ADV was forced to reveal what it paid for 29 different anime titles.
>
> http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2012-01-30/adv-court-do cuments-reveal-amounts-paid-for-29-anime-titles
>
> Again, remember, these are just the amounts for licensure -- no product, to this point, was created.
>
> I put this forward to indicate that there is no justifiable way that ADV could've executed the terms of it's licensure if it did not have the ability or willingness to prevent wholesale piracy of the product.
>
> "How business works" in this country is, on an increasing level, a criminal enterprise based on hoodwinking all other parties to carve out a dollar before the likes of the SEC halt trading on the likes of Cynk Technologies, or the lawsuit between Funimation and Ledford, Greenfield, and Williams in 2011 about the Sojitz transfer.
>
>> I mean I could point out that Japanese cartoons still broadcast on
>> television and get advertising revenues and that they merchandise the
>> hell out of them, and that outfits like Amazon and Netflix are paying
>> for the cartoons in their lineup and that I'm paying something like 20
>> bucks a week for on-demand access to Japanese cartoons on my cable
>> system, and that DVDs are in fact STILL being sold, and Japanese
>> cartoons were being made before they ever broke into the North American
>> market...but that only raises the question of how much "sufficient" is
>> versus how much those revenue streams and others we don't know about
>> are, and neither you nor I have access to the numbers.
>
> And none of those actions you list have legal justification by the people you are paying the money to unless those parties:
>
> a) have the "goddamned piece of paper" indicating they have the right to do it in the first place
> and b) enforce that right through proper legal and civil enforcement of the protections provided their intellectual property.
>
> Anything short of that is fraud. Fraud on their part that they misrepresent to the Japanese the ability to protect the Japanese interests, fraud by the Japanese that those interests exist, and fraud to people such as yourself (if you're paying as you are claiming) because the lack of the enforcement ability renders the product to have zero value, and, hence, no interest to own.
>
> DVD's are still being sold? Where and at what price? That's a serious question, since it seems the piracy-led disintegration of the DVD market has pretty much shoved that market back somewhere down toward the underground the video market was in before the boom of the previous decade.
>
>> However, your apparent belief that they are making no money out of the
>> business of making cartoons, and are instead somehow magically conjuring
>> up the money, and only make the cartoons because they are generous
>> criminals...is pure superstitious nonsense.
>
> The fact that they are making money at all (even if they were) is it's own fraud.
>
> The fact that they attempt to is a second fraud.
>
> Mike
>

Thank you. That was totally incoherent and irrational.
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260544 is a reply to message #260543] Sat, 12 July 2014 16:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo is currently offline  Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
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On 7/12/14 3:21 PM, David Johnston wrote:

> Thank you. That was totally incoherent and irrational.

Yes, that's basically Darkstar's thing. He *is* in fact a known stalker
(for real -- arrested and everything), and his stalker-tendencies have
focused on anime as the pure thing now debased. This is exacerbated by
the fact that he is entirely devoid of empathy in the sense of being
able to grasp that *his* view of the world is not the necessary or only
one. As he cannot manage to recognize that other people view the world
very differently than he does, it is thus logical from his point of view
that anyone who STATES they do is lying or otherwise duplicitous, and
thus malicious.

Since he can't imagine that HE would pay for anything if he could get
it for free, it is impossible for him to imagine that anyone ELSE would.
With that point of view, you can understand his contention that
intellectual property doesn't matter: respect for creators doesn't exist
in his viewpoint, respect for law doesn't exist, thus there's of
necessity chaos only being covered up by people lying about their
businesses.

The fact that people actually ARE buying DVDs of anime and such, and
that you can verify those sales on Amazon and elsewhere, simply doesn't
fit in his worldview, thus he denies it.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260545 is a reply to message #260544] Sat, 12 July 2014 16:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/12/2014 1:28 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 7/12/14 3:21 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Thank you. That was totally incoherent and irrational.
>
> Yes, that's basically Darkstar's thing. He *is* in fact a known
> stalker (for real -- arrested and everything), and his
> stalker-tendencies have focused on anime as the pure thing now debased.
> This is exacerbated by the fact that he is entirely devoid of empathy in
> the sense of being able to grasp that *his* view of the world is not the
> necessary or only one. As he cannot manage to recognize that other
> people view the world very differently than he does, it is thus logical
> from his point of view that anyone who STATES they do is lying or
> otherwise duplicitous, and thus malicious.
>
> Since he can't imagine that HE would pay for anything if he could
> get it for free, it is impossible for him to imagine that anyone ELSE
> would. With that point of view, you can understand his contention that
> intellectual property doesn't matter: respect for creators doesn't exist
> in his viewpoint, respect for law doesn't exist, thus there's of
> necessity chaos only being covered up by people lying about their
> businesses.
>
> The fact that people actually ARE buying DVDs of anime and such,
> and that you can verify those sales on Amazon and elsewhere, simply
> doesn't fit in his worldview, thus he denies it.
>
>
>

Well there's something else there. He seems to feel it's criminal to
watch broadcast television, because it is paid for by advertisers rather
than viewers, and it's criminal for me to pay my cable company to
provide me with Anime On-Demand, because my cable company didn't
actually produce the cartoons I watch but just pays Anime On-Demand
which somehow pays the producers.
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260557 is a reply to message #260544] Sat, 12 July 2014 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:28:14 PM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> Yes, that's basically Darkstar's thing. He *is* in fact a known stalker
> (for real -- arrested and everything), and his stalker-tendencies have
> focused on anime as the pure thing now debased.

Except, unlike Ms. Gibson, you piece of shit, the debasement itself came as a result of criminal acts against the form of entertainment.

Therefore, did you, or anyone else, have the right to debase it in such a manner?

Big difference.

Why don't I just steal all your work as an author and claim it as my own? (Especially if you won't do anything about it...)

> This is exacerbated by
> the fact that he is entirely devoid of empathy in the sense of being
> able to grasp that *his* view of the world is not the necessary or only
> one. As he cannot manage to recognize that other people view the world
> very differently than he does, it is thus logical from his point of view
> that anyone who STATES they do is lying or otherwise duplicitous, and
> thus malicious.

Actually, I go malicious FIRST, then, as a result of malice, lying, etc.

Most all entities who proclaimed themselves anime fans, etc., over the last ten years have tried (and succeeded) in destroying the relevant money-making paradigm the industry had.

> Since he can't imagine that HE would pay for anything if he could get
> it for free, it is impossible for him to imagine that anyone ELSE would.

All purchase requires the threat of violent force to back up the value of the item and true recompense. That is regardless of whether the entity is physical property or intellectual property.

This is why theft and piracy are absolutely equivalent -- without violent force to back up the value of the property, there is no right to recompense, because the item is of no value entitled to receive in return.

The only reason I pay for groceries or games or anything else is legal and violent FORCE, and that is the only reason it's done. A good counterexample is happening more and more in my community, where the lack of violent force is allowing thugs to walk in, steal what they want, announce themselves as a motherfucker on the way out, and get away with it.

> With that point of view, you can understand his contention that
> intellectual property doesn't matter: respect for creators doesn't exist
> in his viewpoint, respect for law doesn't exist, thus there's of
> necessity chaos only being covered up by people lying about their
> businesses.

Absolutely. In fact, that is not just true in the scepter of intellectual property -- it's a birthright of American business as it is conducted in the year 2014.

> The fact that people actually ARE buying DVDs of anime and such, and
> that you can verify those sales on Amazon and elsewhere, simply doesn't
> fit in his worldview, thus he denies it.

It's not only functionally denied, but also an act of theft against the people actually purchasing the DVD.

In fact, it could also be said that the people purchasing the DVD are stealing from the true owners of the IP -- the pirates themselves or the public domain!

Otherwise, and this is a question you continue to refuse to answer because of the fact you can't: WHAT ARE YOU PURCHASING?

You are NOT purchasing the product -- that product is free and available on the Internet as such. Hence, without enforcement against that, they have no right to sell you that DVD. They have no right to create that DVD.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260558 is a reply to message #260545] Sat, 12 July 2014 20:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:40:00 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Well there's something else there. He seems to feel it's criminal to
> watch broadcast television, because it is paid for by advertisers rather
> than viewers, and it's criminal for me to pay my cable company to
> provide me with Anime On-Demand, because my cable company didn't
> actually produce the cartoons I watch but just pays Anime On-Demand
> which somehow pays the producers.

As most of the piracy defenders do, you confuse the issue and move the goalposts to try to create an impossible situation.

The initial broadcast is part of the limited license provided to a viewer in exchange for their being advertised to. They are actually paying with their time to be advertised to and have the ads rammed down their throat.

Broadcast television could not exist otherwise.

But the difference is that the IP content providers, in exchange for that money, provide that limited license to their product so the advertisers have the ability to ad you to death. Take that license away, and broadcast television becomes very legally problematic.

And your example of Anime On Demand is backwards: You must first assert that the companies providing the content to the cable provider actually own that content. Without that ownership, it is in fact both criminal on their part to provide content they don't own to the cable provider AND that it is criminal on the cable provider's part to force you to pay for content that is, in matter of fact, illegally acquired.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260560 is a reply to message #260558] Sat, 12 July 2014 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/12/2014 6:10 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 12:40:00 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Well there's something else there. He seems to feel it's criminal
>> to watch broadcast television, because it is paid for by
>> advertisers rather than viewers, and it's criminal for me to pay my
>> cable company to provide me with Anime On-Demand, because my cable
>> company didn't actually produce the cartoons I watch but just pays
>> Anime On-Demand which somehow pays the producers.
>
> As most of the piracy defenders do, you confuse the issue and move
> the goalposts to try to create an impossible situation.
>
> The initial broadcast is part of the limited license provided to a
> viewer in exchange for their being advertised to. They are actually
> paying with their time to be advertised to and have the ads rammed
> down their throat.
>
> Broadcast television could not exist otherwise.
>
> But the difference is that the IP content providers, in exchange for
> that money, provide that limited license to their product so the
> advertisers have the ability to ad you to death. Take that license
> away, and broadcast television becomes very legally problematic.
>
> And your example of Anime On Demand is backwards: You must first
> assert that the companies providing the content to the cable provider
> actually own that content.

Well they do. Now what?
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260567 is a reply to message #260560] Sun, 13 July 2014 01:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Saturday, July 12, 2014 6:07:25 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

>> And your example of Anime On Demand is backwards: You must first
>> assert that the companies providing the content to the cable provider
>> actually own that content.
>
> Well they do. Now what?

Goddamned piece of paper.

They don't own shit without lawsuits and criminal actions. Period.

The RIAA gives a decent, though not perfect (because of scope) counterexample.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260568 is a reply to message #260567] Sun, 13 July 2014 02:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/12/2014 10:33 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 6:07:25 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>>> And your example of Anime On Demand is backwards: You must first
>>> assert that the companies providing the content to the cable provider
>>> actually own that content.
>>
>> Well they do. Now what?
>
> Goddamned piece of paper.

Right so once again we go back to "Watching television is illegal".

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260573 is a reply to message #260568] Sun, 13 July 2014 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:32:40 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Right so once again we go back to "Watching television is illegal".

If it weren't part of the limited license, and the only reason broadcast television exists is the ads (and that is fact!), you'd be correct.

One could make a very real case for not watching commercials being illegal, if they really wanted to push it.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260578 is a reply to message #260568] Sun, 13 July 2014 09:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo is currently offline  Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
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On 7/13/14 1:32 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 7/12/2014 10:33 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 6:07:25 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>>
>>>> And your example of Anime On Demand is backwards: You must first
>>>> assert that the companies providing the content to the cable provider
>>>> actually own that content.
>>>
>>> Well they do. Now what?
>>
>> Goddamned piece of paper.
>
> Right so once again we go back to "Watching television is illegal".
>

Dude, he's *not* *rational*. He's literally incapable of thinking
beyond his own assumptions. In this case, he's stated his base
assumption: no one pays for anything absent a direct or implied threat
of violence (despite the evidence of multiple things which show that
people DO buy things that they could get for free -- even things they
ALREADY HAVE for free). No rights exist without violent enforcement,
even though the LAW is very clear that in the case of copyright the
owners DO NOT NEED to enforce unless they want to.

There's no point in actually trying to convince him of anything.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260600 is a reply to message #260573] Sun, 13 July 2014 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 2:36 AM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, July 12, 2014 10:32:40 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Right so once again we go back to "Watching television is illegal".
>
> If it weren't part of the limited license,

The limited license is "a piece of paper".

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260613 is a reply to message #260600] Sun, 13 July 2014 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 12:15:48 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> The limited license is "a piece of paper".

But, unlike much of piracy, one that's enforced.

The recent US Supreme Court decision shutting down Aereo is a prime example of this.

What Aereo was trying to do was the exact same proposition the pirates do -- circumvent the legal process and create a more efficient and effective delivery model than the legal industry allows.

If the television networks, etc., had not sued and taken out Aereo in the court system, then you would have had cause to state the present broadcast television model to be fraudulent, in much similar manner to what I am discussing here.

But the key is ENFORCEMENT. You have zero rights that you are unable or unwilling to enforce. (As I will note to Sea Gnat in a moment or two.)

Minus suing and putting Aereo out of business, your statement would have been correct.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260614 is a reply to message #260613] Sun, 13 July 2014 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 3:55 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 12:15:48 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> The limited license is "a piece of paper".
>
> But, unlike much of piracy, one that's enforced.
>
> The recent US Supreme Court decision shutting down Aereo is a prime
> example of this.
>

No. It isn't. Anime On Demand isn't broadcast without authorization.
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260615 is a reply to message #260578] Sun, 13 July 2014 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:47:44 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> Dude, he's *not* *rational*. He's literally incapable of thinking
> beyond his own assumptions. In this case, he's stated his base
> assumption: no one pays for anything absent a direct or implied threat
> of violence (despite the evidence of multiple things which show that
> people DO buy things that they could get for free

1) By fraud only.

2) Why would you pay for something that you could steal... oops, consume previously?

Again, Gnat: WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE BUYING? You've NEVER answered that question because you cannot without:

a) recognizing the theft for what it is
and b) understanding that the inability or unwillingness to enforce their contract, license, and rights nullify all three, rendering their entire business a corrupt criminal enterprise.

And you also do not recognize that purchase is, in and of self, an illegal act, see 1) above. The act of purchase from an entity which does not own the product could actually be seen as an illegal act (the reception of stolen property in and of itself).

> -- even things they ALREADY HAVE for free). No rights exist without violent
> enforcement,

Not even the right of not getting killed, raped, or anything else.

Without violent enforcement (even against acts which are generally agreed to be illegal by most supposedly "rational" people), you have no rights whatsoever, because all rights can be seized from you at an instant's notice.

> even though the LAW is very clear that in the case of copyright the
> owners DO NOT NEED to enforce unless they want to.

False. The current realities in anime are a perfect counterexample.

> There's no point in actually trying to convince him of anything.

I love you, bitch.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260616 is a reply to message #260614] Sun, 13 July 2014 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 2:57:34 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> No. It isn't. Anime On Demand isn't broadcast without authorization.

Without enforcement of the license, ANY ENTITY broadcast is being broadcast without authorization, because there is no legal authorization, because there is no material ownership.

Maybe we need to back up for small minds like yours and Sea Gnat's: In your minds, then, what is a license?

Here's my look at it: A license is a legal contract between entities which gives the licensee certain _exclusive rights_ (here's your key two words) granted by the original owner/creator/licensor.

Without enforcement, those exclusive rights are impossible (and, in anime's case, were not possible in the first place), and an unenforceable contract is no contract -- it's null under the law.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260617 is a reply to message #260615] Sun, 13 July 2014 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 4:04 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:47:44 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Dude, he's *not* *rational*. He's literally incapable of thinking
>> beyond his own assumptions. In this case, he's stated his base
>> assumption: no one pays for anything absent a direct or implied threat
>> of violence (despite the evidence of multiple things which show that
>> people DO buy things that they could get for free
>
> 1) By fraud only.
>
> 2) Why would you pay for something that you could steal... oops, consume previously?
>
> Again, Gnat: WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE BUYING? You've NEVER answered that question because you cannot without:
>
> a) recognizing the theft for what it is
> and b) understanding that the inability or unwillingness to enforce their contract, license, and rights nullify all three, rendering their entire business a corrupt criminal enterprise.
>
> And you also do not recognize that purchase is, in and of self, an illegal act, see 1) above. The act of purchase from an entity which does not own the product could actually be seen as an illegal act (the reception of stolen property in and of itself).
>

Ah. So the existence of "stolen goods" means that all property is theft.

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260618 is a reply to message #260615] Sun, 13 July 2014 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo is currently offline  Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoo
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On 7/13/14 6:04 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 5:47:44 AM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>
>> Dude, he's *not* *rational*. He's literally incapable of thinking
>> beyond his own assumptions. In this case, he's stated his base
>> assumption: no one pays for anything absent a direct or implied threat
>> of violence (despite the evidence of multiple things which show that
>> people DO buy things that they could get for free
>
> 1) By fraud only.
>
> 2) Why would you pay for something that you could steal... oops, consume previously?
>
> Again, Gnat: WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE BUYING? You've NEVER answered that question because you cannot without:
>


I HAVE answered it. Multiple times. You have dismissed/ignored the
answers because your brain *cannot* comprehend it. Since YOU can't
comprehend it, you therefore assume it's wrong.

You are mentally ill, Mike. You've admitted this multiple times. In
view of that, I am still mildly surprised that you are capable of
coherent posts on other topics, and yet UNABLE to even for a moment
entertain the idea that

1) The fact that YOU would not do something does not prove that someone
else would not do that thing, and

2) That the fact that you cannot comprehend something may mean that it
is YOU who have the problem, and not the 99+% of mankind with whom you
argue.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260619 is a reply to message #260618] Sun, 13 July 2014 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 3:21:46 PM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> Again, Gnat: WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE BUYING? You've NEVER answered that question because you cannot without:

> I HAVE answered it. Multiple times. You have dismissed/ignored the
> answers because your brain *cannot* comprehend it. Since YOU can't
> comprehend it, you therefore assume it's wrong.

It's wrong. You are either lying or completely malicious in doing so. Pick one.

Because if you're buying the intellectual property, you have, at best, been defrauded, and, at worst, you yourself are committing an illegal act (the reception of, in truth, stolen property from it's true owners -- the pirates themselves!).

And if you're not buying the IP on the disk, then what are you buying?

You continue to think you've answered the question because everyone else pats you on the head and says you've answered the question. You do that because no one wants to confront the question because it leads to an immediately uncomfortable conclusion which blows everything up.

> You are mentally ill, Mike. You've admitted this multiple times. In

I may be a lot more than that.

> view of that, I am still mildly surprised that you are capable of
> coherent posts on other topics, and yet UNABLE to even for a moment
> entertain the idea that

Well, most people would assert I'm not capable of coherent posts on any topic.

Which see the soccer fans that can't comprehend fixed matches at the World Cup, etc.

Which see the pro wrestling fans that can't comprehend John Cena is the only feasible reason WWE, as a corporation, works today...

Etc. and so forth and so on.

The problem with what is considered "mental health" is that it, at the end of the day, comes down to a basic agreement on basic subjects.

That's why you need me locked the fuck up, Sea Wasp. I will not agree, on the most basic of levels, to the concept of what the rest of society agrees as a social contract.

It is that on which I, at the least, understand that violence is the only means of meaningful behavior change -- be that "violence" simply as a matter of law or of a matter of actual physical damage/elimination.

> 1) The fact that YOU would not do something does not prove that someone
> else would not do that thing, and

It's not even just that, in this case: All purchase is a matter of force. All valuation is a matter of force and enforcement.

All property rights come down to your ability to shoot me should I attempt to steal them. Otherwise, what is yours is MINE. And that's what you don't get.

If you can't stop me from smashing your window, doing what I want to you, and then taking what you have, you have no rights -- for all the fundamental rights in this country are derived from the fact that, at the end of the day, they can be enforced. (It's one of the reasons you don't have the right of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness -- else you must then ask the question of the person for whom the exercise of any of those sufficiently infringes on those of others, and, for those others not to have their rights infringed, certain parties have no rights, even that to life itself)...

Sadly, that's what the pirates do get. And they, in reality, have enough court precedent to nullify every anime license and put every anime company out of factual business for the frauds they perpetrate.

> 2) That the fact that you cannot comprehend something may mean that it
> is YOU who have the problem, and not the 99+% of mankind with whom you
> argue.

Then eliminate me, by the concept I gave above. Because then I cannot exercise the rights, even to live, without infringing the most basic of yours.

I do not believe in Hanlon's Razor. The level of utter stupidity which accepting for stupidity that which I attribute to malice would mean that many/most people are too stupid to live.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260620 is a reply to message #260617] Sun, 13 July 2014 19:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 3:19:24 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Ah. So the existence of "stolen goods" means that all property is theft.

Without enforcement, the very creation of the localization would mean that the localization, in truth, is stolen from the true owners (if any are considered).

Otherwise, again, WHAT IS A LICENSE?

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260622 is a reply to message #260620] Sun, 13 July 2014 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 5:16 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 3:19:24 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Ah. So the existence of "stolen goods" means that all property is theft.
>
> Without enforcement,

Your assumption that there is no enforcement is wrong.

--- Synchronet 3.13a-Win32 NewsLink 1.83
Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260623 is a reply to message #260619] Sun, 13 July 2014 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 5:15 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 3:21:46 PM UTC-7, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
> wrote:
>>> Again, Gnat: WHAT ARE THESE PEOPLE BUYING? You've NEVER
>>> answered that question because you cannot without:
>
>> I HAVE answered it. Multiple times. You have dismissed/ignored the
>> answers because your brain *cannot* comprehend it. Since YOU can't
>> comprehend it, you therefore assume it's wrong.
>
> It's wrong. You are either lying or completely malicious in doing
> so. Pick one.
>
> Because if you're buying the intellectual property, you have, at
> best, been defrauded, and, at worst, you yourself are committing an
> illegal act (the reception of, in truth, stolen property from it's
> true owners -- the pirates themselves!).

It would require acute brain damage to think that the "pirates" are the
"true owners".

Incidentally, did you know that there are people selling works that are
legally in the public domain? And that this is not in fact fraud?
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260631 is a reply to message #260622] Sun, 13 July 2014 23:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 6:16:50 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Your assumption that there is no enforcement is wrong.

With anime it is, and, given the precedent of the One Piece decision and the amount of piracy involved in the fandom, to state what you have, David, is ludicrous.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260632 is a reply to message #260631] Sun, 13 July 2014 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 8:53 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 6:16:50 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Your assumption that there is no enforcement is wrong.
>
> With anime it is,

Not actually true. There isn't a lot of enforcement, but that's not the
same thing as no enforcement.

--- Synchronet 3.13a-Win32 NewsLink 1.83
Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260633 is a reply to message #260623] Sun, 13 July 2014 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 6:18:32 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> It would require acute brain damage to think that the "pirates" are the
> "true owners".

Hey, I wouldn't dispute the most of anime fandom these days has acute brain damage, but there you go.

But that's exactly the point: The pirates become the owners of the intellectual property sans enforcement, because they have superior license rights to the "goddamned piece of paper" I spoke of earlier.

There is a simple solution -- enforce the damn law and allow enforcement of the damn law as if your company's future depends on it, because it does!

When enforcing your intellectual property instantaneously bankrupts you, all of your licenses, etc. are instantaneously void.

You don't think this wasn't the idea of CrunchyShit to aid in the destruction of the legit industry?

> Incidentally, did you know that there are people selling works that are
> legally in the public domain? And that this is not in fact fraud?

Fraud is... let me pull up the definition I saw once:

"The definition of fraud is to intentionally misrepresent one or more aspects of a financial matter so as to entice someone to enter into a transaction that they would not otherwise entertain were they to know the truth."

I know this: If I had known the extent to which the companies were unable or unwilling to enforce the fandom to stop piracy, they wouldn't have gotten a red cent from me.

Which of course also leads to the public domain stuff. Be nice to see you reconcile your examples with the definition above.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260634 is a reply to message #260632] Sun, 13 July 2014 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Sunday, July 13, 2014 8:03:44 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Not actually true. There isn't a lot of enforcement, but that's not the
> same thing as no enforcement.

All attempts at meaningful enforcement in the USA have been struck down in the courts.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260635 is a reply to message #260633] Sun, 13 July 2014 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 9:05 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 6:18:32 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> It would require acute brain damage to think that the "pirates" are
>> the "true owners".
>
> Hey, I wouldn't dispute the most of anime fandom these days has acute
> brain damage, but there you go.
>
> But that's exactly the point: The pirates become the owners of the
> intellectual property sans enforcement, because they have superior
> license rights to the "goddamned piece of paper" I spoke of earlier.

No they don't.

>
> There is a simple solution -- enforce the damn law and allow
> enforcement of the damn law as if your company's future depends on
> it, because it does!
>
> When enforcing your intellectual property instantaneously bankrupts
> you, all of your licenses, etc. are instantaneously void.
>
> You don't think this wasn't the idea of CrunchyShit to aid in the
> destruction of the legit industry?

And yet the industry remains strangely undestroyed.
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260644 is a reply to message #260635] Mon, 14 July 2014 01:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 8:16:52 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
> On 7/13/2014 9:05 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:

>> But that's exactly the point: The pirates become the owners of the
>> intellectual property sans enforcement, because they have superior
>> license rights to the "goddamned piece of paper" I spoke of earlier.
>
> No they don't.

Yes they do. They have the right, until violently stopped, to distribute, in any quantity and means, the product they otherwise do not own. Those are the same rights granted to a licensee by those who would, otherwise, own the product.

>> You don't think this wasn't the idea of CrunchyShit to aid in the
>> destruction of the legit industry?
>
> And yet the industry remains strangely undestroyed.

What stands undestroyed is only undestroyed because of fraud.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260654 is a reply to message #260644] Mon, 14 July 2014 02:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/13/2014 10:10 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 8:16:52 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 7/13/2014 9:05 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>> But that's exactly the point: The pirates become the owners of
>>> the intellectual property sans enforcement, because they have
>>> superior license rights to the "goddamned piece of paper" I spoke
>>> of earlier.
>>
>> No they don't.
>
> Yes they do. They have the right, until violently stopped, to
> distribute, in any quantity and means, the product they otherwise do
> not own. Those are the same rights granted to a licensee by those
> who would, otherwise, own the product.

Do you understand what the word "superior" means?

>
>>> You don't think this wasn't the idea of CrunchyShit to aid in
>>> the destruction of the legit industry?
>>
>> And yet the industry remains strangely undestroyed.
>
> What stands undestroyed is only undestroyed because of fraud.

Right. Because according to you getting money for the product they make
is fraud.

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260715 is a reply to message #260654] Mon, 14 July 2014 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Sunday, July 13, 2014 10:48:40 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> Do you understand what the word "superior" means?

And you believe the fandom does not see getting the product for free on an near-instantaneous level and not having to go through the hoops of the industry as superior to what the industry provides, even today -- much less at the point in time at which to be a non-pirate literally put you 2-3 years behind the anime fandom?

I'd ask what kind of a fool you take me for, but I already know that answer..

> Right. Because according to you getting money for the product they make
> is fraud.

When the industry has no legal right to create the product, you are most certainly correct.

When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the product, it loses the right to create it.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260717 is a reply to message #260715] Mon, 14 July 2014 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/14/2014 1:06 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 10:48:40 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Do you understand what the word "superior" means?
>
> And you believe the fandom does not see getting the product for free
> on an near-instantaneous level and not having to go through the hoops
> of the industry as superior to what the industry provides,

What the fandom sees or doesn't see has nothing to do with legal
superiority.

even today
> -- much less at the point in time at which to be a non-pirate
> literally put you 2-3 years behind the anime fandom?
>
> I'd ask what kind of a fool you take me for, but I already know that
> answer.
>
>> Right. Because according to you getting money for the product they
>> make is fraud.
>
> When the industry has no legal right to create the product,

Which is not even remotely true.


you are most certainly correct.
>
> When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the
> product, it loses the right to create it.

No. It doesn't. The right to create it comes under the category of
freedom of speech and whether or not they can prevent other people from
making copies has nothing to do with that.
--- Synchronet 3.13a-Win32 NewsLink 1.83
Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260731 is a reply to message #260717] Mon, 14 July 2014 18:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Inu-Yasha is currently offline  Inu-Yasha
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On 7/14/2014 3:55 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 7/14/2014 1:06 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 10:48:40 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>>
>>> Do you understand what the word "superior" means?
>>
>> And you believe the fandom does not see getting the product for free
>> on an near-instantaneous level and not having to go through the hoops
>> of the industry as superior to what the industry provides,
>
> What the fandom sees or doesn't see has nothing to do with legal
> superiority.
>
> even today
>> -- much less at the point in time at which to be a non-pirate
>> literally put you 2-3 years behind the anime fandom?
>>
>> I'd ask what kind of a fool you take me for, but I already know that
>> answer.
>>
>>> Right. Because according to you getting money for the product they
>>> make is fraud.
>>
>> When the industry has no legal right to create the product,
>
> Which is not even remotely true.
>
>
> you are most certainly correct.
>>
>> When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the
>> product, it loses the right to create it.
>
> No. It doesn't. The right to create it comes under the category of
> freedom of speech and whether or not they can prevent other people from
> making copies has nothing to do with that.
Please don't feed this *Troll*, thanks.

Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^

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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260732 is a reply to message #260715] Mon, 14 July 2014 18:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Inu-Yasha is currently offline  Inu-Yasha
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On 7/14/2014 3:06 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, July 13, 2014 10:48:40 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> Do you understand what the word "superior" means?
>
> And you believe the fandom does not see getting the product for free on an near-instantaneous level and not having to go through the hoops of the industry as superior to what the industry provides, even today -- much less at the point in time at which to be a non-pirate literally put you 2-3 years behind the anime fandom?
>
> I'd ask what kind of a fool you take me for, but I already know that answer.
>
>> Right. Because according to you getting money for the product they make
>> is fraud.
>
> When the industry has no legal right to create the product, you are most certainly correct.
>
> When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the product, it loses the right to create it.
>
> Mike
>
Once Again, I politely ask that you leave this newsgroup as you have
nothing to add to the discussions here. Thanks.

Inu-Yasha
Feh!! ^_^

--- Synchronet 3.13a-Win32 NewsLink 1.83
Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260742 is a reply to message #260717] Mon, 14 July 2014 22:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
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On Monday, July 14, 2014 12:55:52 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:

> What the fandom sees or doesn't see has nothing to do with legal
> superiority.

And what you completely miss about the subject is that the superiority doesn't have to be legal to basically become the driving force in the industry -- in fact, it becomes legally superior when it renders the legal industry unable or unwilling to do anything about it.

The entire basis we have an anime fandom in 2014 is based on the complete discarding of legality in the name of superiority of delivery of content.

>>> Right. Because according to you getting money for the product they
>>> make is fraud.

>> When the industry has no legal right to create the product,

> Which is not even remotely true.

Absolutely factually true. An unenforceable contract is no contract, hence void.

>> When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the
>> product, it loses the right to create it.
>
> No. It doesn't. The right to create it comes under the category of
> freedom of speech and whether or not they can prevent other people from
> making copies has nothing to do with that.

The entire right to create it comes under the category of COPYRIGHT, which is the complete opposite of freedom of speech in that regard, also because it's the complete opposity of what you're saying -- the entire right to create comes from the fact it has exclusive right to PREVENT other people from making copies.

Lose that, and everything else becomes the fruit of an illegal tree.

Mike
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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260751 is a reply to message #260742] Tue, 15 July 2014 00:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
David Johnston is currently offline  David Johnston
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On 7/14/2014 7:42 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, July 14, 2014 12:55:52 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
>
>> What the fandom sees or doesn't see has nothing to do with legal
>> superiority.
>
> And what you completely miss about the subject is that the
> superiority doesn't have to be legal

Of course it does, if you are going to claim that the companies are
engaged in fraud.


>>>> Right. Because according to you getting money for the product
>>>> they make is fraud.
>
>>> When the industry has no legal right to create the product,
>
>> Which is not even remotely true.
>
> Absolutely factually true. An unenforceable contract is

irrelevant. One does not need a contract to create a product legally.

>>> When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the
>>> product, it loses the right to create it.
>>
>> No. It doesn't. The right to create it comes under the category
>> of freedom of speech and whether or not they can prevent other
>> people from making copies has nothing to do with that.
>
> The entire right to create it comes under the category of COPYRIGHT,

Copyright only affects the right to copy something. Hence the name.
One is always free to create a (relatively) original work.


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Re: Anime piracy and illegal streaming [message #260772 is a reply to message #260751] Tue, 15 July 2014 04:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Starcade is currently offline  Starcade
Messages: 130
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Monday, July 14, 2014 8:50:48 PM UTC-7, David Johnston wrote:
> On 7/14/2014 7:42 PM, darkstar7646@gmail.com wrote:

>> And what you completely miss about the subject is that the
>> superiority doesn't have to be legal
>
> Of course it does, if you are going to claim that the companies are
> engaged in fraud.

It doesn't have to be legal superiority - it simply has to be BETTER than what the companies provide. Price point, delivery speed, infinite supply...

>>>> When the industry has no legal right to create the product,

>>> Which is not even remotely true.

>> Absolutely factually true. An unenforceable contract is
>
> irrelevant. One does not need a contract to create a product legally.

That's complete bullshit. You obviously have no idea of the legal ability to create almost every product -- the old "You didn't make that!" speech pissed a lot of people off, and, though I have less and less use for Obama, he's right on that one.

>>>> When the industry has no ability to defend it's ownership of the
>>>> product, it loses the right to create it.

>>> No. It doesn't. The right to create it comes under the category
>>> of freedom of speech and whether or not they can prevent other
>>> people from making copies has nothing to do with that.

>> The entire right to create it comes under the category of COPYRIGHT,

> Copyright only affects the right to copy something. Hence the name.

Copyright affects the right of the owner of same to sell the product. Lack of defense of the right to copy (Hence the name.) renders the copyright materially void.

The record industry and the TV networks at least get this.

If you can't stop me from copying your work, it's no longer your work to sell. Unenforceable contract is no contract.

> One is always free to create a (relatively) original work.

No, one is not if it can't have a right to defend their own work.

Mike
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