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4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250868] Fri, 02 May 2014 07:14 Go to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi,

most ML monitor programs for the C64 seem to be 8 KB in size. Is there
any halfway usable alternative that fits in 4 KB or at most 6 KB? It
doesn't need that fancy up/down scrolling as the intended use would be
via a serial line. So, normal scrolling is there as newlines are
printed but backward scrolling is not available.

Also, it wouldn't have to be specifically for the C64 but that would
probably be easiest to port to the target platform for me. Available
routines for I/O would be reading and printing a character, nothing
more. There is no such thing as disk I/O and other such things. Simple
commands like A, D, C, T, I, M and G, *maybe* a number conversion
command (oct, hex, dec), would be enough, @ and other advanced commands
are not needed.

Is there such thing? Or is there a source for a monitor program which I
could adapt for my needs?
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250869 is a reply to message #250868] Fri, 02 May 2014 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> writes:

> Hi,
>
> most ML monitor programs for the C64 seem to be 8 KB in size. Is there
> any halfway usable alternative that fits in 4 KB or at most 6 KB?

I seem to remember having a monitor called "Zoom 49152" back then which
probably was about 4k since I think it loaded to $C000...
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250887 is a reply to message #250869] Fri, 02 May 2014 11:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi,

> I seem to remember having a monitor called "Zoom 49152" back then which
> probably was about 4k since I think it loaded to $C000...

I looked around a while on zimmers.net and found a few examples:
Supermon, Vicmon and Smon. I'll check them out.

Never heard of Zoom, though and couldn't find it too.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250915 is a reply to message #250887] Fri, 02 May 2014 19:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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On Friday, May 2, 2014 9:22:19 AM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote:
>

> I looked around a while on zimmers.net and found a
> few examples: Supermon, Vicmon and Smon. I'll check
> them out.
> --
> cul8er
>
> Paul
> handle = paul.foerster ISP = gmx.net

My copy of the SUPERMON installer takes up 29 CBM sectors. But the SUPERMON object program takes up 13 CBM sectors. My conversion from CBM sectors to KB may be flaky but the object program may meet your program size limitations. The installer is probably too large for your needs. It looks like I have Mr. Butterfield's source code as well.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250936 is a reply to message #250915] Sat, 03 May 2014 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi rusure,

> My copy of the SUPERMON installer takes up 29 CBM sectors. But the
> SUPERMON object program takes up 13 CBM sectors. My conversion from
> CBM sectors to KB may be flaky but the object program may meet your
> program size limitations. The installer is probably too large for your
> needs. It looks like I have Mr. Butterfield's source code as well.

16 sectors (17 on disk) are 4 KB, 32 (33 on disk) are 8 KB. Blocks to
KB conversion is always multiplication or division by 4. So yes, 13
blocks meet my restriction.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250937 is a reply to message #250868] Sat, 03 May 2014 05:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hg is currently offline  Hg
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On 02/05/2014 16:14, Paul Förster wrote:
> Hi,
>
> most ML monitor programs for the C64 seem to be 8 KB in size. Is there
> any halfway usable alternative that fits in 4 KB or at most 6 KB? It
> doesn't need that fancy up/down scrolling as the intended use would be
> via a serial line. So, normal scrolling is there as newlines are printed
> but backward scrolling is not available.
>
> Also, it wouldn't have to be specifically for the C64 but that would
> probably be easiest to port to the target platform for me. Available
> routines for I/O would be reading and printing a character, nothing
> more. There is no such thing as disk I/O and other such things. Simple
> commands like A, D, C, T, I, M and G, *maybe* a number conversion
> command (oct, hex, dec), would be enough, @ and other advanced commands
> are not needed.
>
> Is there such thing? Or is there a source for a monitor program which I
> could adapt for my needs?


Way back in 85 I typed in a monitor program I found in a magazine.
Here is the listing as it was presented to me-

http://archive.org/stream/your-computer-magazine-1985-06/You rComputer_1985_06#page/n96/mode/1up

Weird thing about this is that the author of the monitor is credited
as John Twiddy. I've always wondered if this was indeed the famous
programmer before he become known to the world as the coder of the
64 conversion of Tau Ceti.


--
T
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250938 is a reply to message #250887] Sat, 03 May 2014 05:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> writes:

> Hi,
>
>> I seem to remember having a monitor called "Zoom 49152" back then which
>> probably was about 4k since I think it loaded to $C000...
>
> I looked around a while on zimmers.net and found a few examples:
> Supermon, Vicmon and Smon. I'll check them out.
>
> Never heard of Zoom, though and couldn't find it too.

Google found it here on a disk image, actually called zoom in 49152:
http://ftp.cbm8bit.com/index.php/8bit/commodore/disk-image/b ddef7e787f3aea50b9b39051dfbc1af

At least that one seems to run. Seems to be on other images there too.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250939 is a reply to message #250936] Sat, 03 May 2014 07:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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On Saturday, May 3, 2014 2:55:00 AM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote:
> Hi rusure,
>
>
>
>> My copy of the SUPERMON installer takes up 29 CBM sectors. But the
>
>> SUPERMON object program takes up 13 CBM sectors.

I missinterpreted the entries in my SUPERMON directory. The 29 sector entry is a SUPERMON BASIC program INSTruction manual not an INSTaller. The 13 sector program is the SUPERMON installer.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250944 is a reply to message #250915] Sat, 03 May 2014 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dott.Piergiorgio is currently offline  dott.Piergiorgio
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Il 03/05/2014 01:27, rusure ha scritto:

> My copy of the SUPERMON installer takes up 29 CBM sectors. But the
> SUPERMON object program takes up 13 CBM sectors. My conversion from
> CBM sectors to KB may be flaky but the object program may meet your
> program size limitations. The installer is probably too large for
> your needs. It looks like I have Mr. Butterfield's source code as
> well.

well, for me the sector/Kbyte conversion is more than flaky, because I
happen to dabble also with CP/M....

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250945 is a reply to message #250938] Sat, 03 May 2014 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Anssi,

> Google found it here on a disk image, actually called zoom in 49152:
> http://ftp.cbm8bit.com/index.php/8bit/commodore/disk-image/b ddef7e787f3aea50b9b39051dfbc1af
>
>
> At least that one seems to run. Seems to be on other images there too.

cool! Thanks for that one. :)

Btw., what I always wanted to know: What is that initial "c*" for? Some
monitors also say "b*" or some other letter when started.

load"zoom*",8,1

searching for zoom*
loading
ready.
sys49152

c*
pc sr ac xr yr sp
..; a7e9 39 31 35 32 ff
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250972 is a reply to message #250945] Sun, 04 May 2014 02:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> writes:

> Hi Anssi,
>
>> Google found it here on a disk image, actually called zoom in 49152:
>> http://ftp.cbm8bit.com/index.php/8bit/commodore/disk-image/b ddef7e787f3aea50b9b39051dfbc1af
>>
>>
>> At least that one seems to run. Seems to be on other images there too.
>
> cool! Thanks for that one. :)
>
> Btw., what I always wanted to know: What is that initial "c*" for?
> Some monitors also say "b*" or some other letter when started.

No idea. Some monitors don't so uh... Nonessential information?
Misspelling for C= maybe?
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #250979 is a reply to message #250972] Sun, 04 May 2014 05:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Anssi,

> No idea. Some monitors don't so uh... Nonessential information?
> Misspelling for C= maybe?

I doubt that it's a misspelling for C= because some monitors also seem
to display B*. IIRC, I think I even have seen an S* somewhere.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251037 is a reply to message #250979] Mon, 05 May 2014 05:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> writes:

> Hi Anssi,
>
>> No idea. Some monitors don't so uh... Nonessential information?
>> Misspelling for C= maybe?
>
> I doubt that it's a misspelling for C= because some monitors also seem
> to display B*. IIRC, I think I even have seen an S* somewhere.

I think B* means you hit a breakpoint, from a quick try it does in Zoom
at least. Jim Butterfield's monitors Tinymon and Supermon seem to print
the B* at start too as does Vicmon according to its manual. I guess that
just means those monitors use the same code path at initial startup as
when actually hitting a breakpoint.

BTW, if you're interested in other small monitors, Tinymon (for VIC) is
less than 1 kB and available on zimmers.net in prg format. Although
apparently it needs some modification to run on a C64. Too bad the
assembly source for Tinymon or (unmodified) Supermon doesn't seem to be
available on the net.

I have to admit I have no better ideas about what Zoom tries to say with
C*. I guess S* could mean startup?
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251041 is a reply to message #250868] Mon, 05 May 2014 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lawless.jim is currently offline  lawless.jim
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A source file for Supermon64 can be found on Stephen Judd's Fridge site:

http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251048 is a reply to message #251037] Mon, 05 May 2014 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Ansii,

> BTW, if you're interested in other small monitors, Tinymon (for VIC) is
> less than 1 kB and available on zimmers.net in prg format. Although
> apparently it needs some modification to run on a C64. Too bad the
> assembly source for Tinymon or (unmodified) Supermon doesn't seem to be
> available on the net.

I'd love to see a source for a monitor program because there would be
some things I'd be interested in how other people did it, mostly the
parsing mnemonics and translating them to code and vice versa part.

> I have to admit I have no better ideas about what Zoom tries to say with
> C*. I guess S* could mean startup?

I would guess the same with B* and S*. But then, there's still C*.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251049 is a reply to message #251041] Mon, 05 May 2014 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Jim,

> A source file for Supermon64 can be found on Stephen Judd's Fridge site:
> http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/

cool! Thanks for the pointer. :)
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251050 is a reply to message #251037] Mon, 05 May 2014 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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On Monday, May 5, 2014 3:13:20 AM UTC-6, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Paul F�rster writes:

> Supermon doesn't seem to be available on the net.


I don't remember where I got my copy but my rolodex
says SUPERMON is in the TRANSACTER disk image here:

http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/magazines/transactor/ disks/09.d64.gz


If the source code isn't on the disk, I could post it on GOOGLE drive.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251068 is a reply to message #251041] Mon, 05 May 2014 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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On Monday, May 5, 2014 4:56:16 AM UTC-6, lawle...@gmail.com wrote:
> A source file for Supermon64 can be found on Stephen Judd's Fridge site:
>
> http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/

Mr. Mr Butterfield dates the FRIDGE source at 1983. This may be adequate for Mr.Forster's needs.

The Transactor disk contains only the SUPERMON 1985 binaries The BASIC program instruction manual, not the SUPERMON source. The source code in my possession is dated 1985. I am almost positive that it contains no SCPU adaptations

The most likely location for the 1985 source code may be on the video cam site run by Rod and Gaelyn Gasson. I was just denied access because I was unable to provide either a user id or password. I was not provided a way to register.

Should anyone need the 1985 source code, I could post it on Google drive.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251069 is a reply to message #251041] Mon, 05 May 2014 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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lawless.jim@gmail.com writes:

> A source file for Supermon64 can be found on Stephen Judd's Fridge site:
>
> http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/

Well, the link there to the "original" source
(http://www.ffd2.com/fridge/programs/supermon.s) has this comment in it:

* Merlinized and adapted for the SuperCPU by
* Stephen L. Judd

That's why I said the unmodified source doesn't seem to be available. I
guess "Merlinized" means it's compatible to Merlin Assembler but what
does adapting to the SuperCPU entail?

Anyways, one can see there the apparently unconditional print of the B*
after the break label in this code:

ldx #$42
lda #$2a
jsr wrtwo
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251104 is a reply to message #251050] Mon, 05 May 2014 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi rusure,

> I don't remember where I got my copy but my rolodex
> says SUPERMON is in the TRANSACTER disk image here:
> http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/magazines/transactor/ disks/09.d64.gz
> If the source code isn't on the disk, I could post it on GOOGLE drive.

yes, Supermon is on the disk. Thanks very much. I'd apprciate the
source, though, which unfortunately is not on the disk.

You can also send it it me via email. Thanks very much in advance.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251105 is a reply to message #251069] Mon, 05 May 2014 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Anssi,

> Anyways, one can see there the apparently unconditional print of the B*
> after the break label in this code:
>
> ldx #$42
> lda #$2a
> jsr wrtwo

which makes it kind of an arbitrary welcome message...
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251152 is a reply to message #251104] Tue, 06 May 2014 13:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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On Monday, May 5, 2014 6:11:46 PM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote
> You can also send it it me via email. Thanks very much in advance.

supermon+64.src has been uploaded to and should be downloadable from

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80L9cEZ8YnvTE5nWFMwWEZQam8 /edit?usp=sharing

It's petsci text so NOTEPAD can almost read it. I don't have the slightest idea what C64 SW can be used to assemble it, but those with any programming skills should be able to adapt the source to their assembler.

I uploaded it as a file available to anybody. That way, I only needed one operation so that all interested parties can acquire the source.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251159 is a reply to message #251152] Tue, 06 May 2014 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dott.Piergiorgio is currently offline  dott.Piergiorgio
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Il 06/05/2014 19:18, rusure ha scritto:
> On Monday, May 5, 2014 6:11:46 PM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote
>> You can also send it it me via email. Thanks very much in advance.
>
> supermon+64.src has been uploaded to and should be downloadable from
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80L9cEZ8YnvTE5nWFMwWEZQam8 /edit?usp=sharing
>
> It's petsci text so NOTEPAD can almost read it. I don't have the slightest idea what C64 SW can be used to assemble it, but those with any programming skills should be able to adapt the source to their assembler.

after the CR/LF conversion, also less(1) read it, perfectly, as I can see.

indeed it is an assembler I can't identify; I noticed the ^Z filler
typical of CP/M and also there's some multi-instruction lines,
reminiscent of CP/M ASM

Another helpful thing, whose can help, and the labels identified by
starting from the first column.

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251167 is a reply to message #251152] Tue, 06 May 2014 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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rusure <r_u_sure9@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Monday, May 5, 2014 6:11:46 PM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote
>> You can also send it it me via email. Thanks very much in advance.
>
> supermon+64.src has been uploaded to and should be downloadable from
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80L9cEZ8YnvTE5nWFMwWEZQam8 /edit?usp=sharing
>
> It's petsci text so NOTEPAD can almost read it. I don't have the slightest idea what C64 SW can be used to assemble it, but those with any programming skills should be able to adapt the source to their assembler.
>
> I uploaded it as a file available to anybody. That way, I only needed one operation so that all interested parties can acquire the source.

Curious. Looks like the man himself said (in this group, way back) that
his original source was in basic format to be assembled with an
assembler called PAL. Clearly this isn't in that format. Still,
interesting file.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251172 is a reply to message #251167] Tue, 06 May 2014 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi rusure, hi dott. Piergiorgio., hi Ansii,

On 2014-05-06 22:00:59 +0000, Anssi Saari said:
> rusure <r_u_sure9@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>> On Monday, May 5, 2014 6:11:46 PM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote
>>> You can also send it it me via email. Thanks very much in advance.
>>
>> supermon+64.src has been uploaded to and should be downloadable from
>>
>> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80L9cEZ8YnvTE5nWFMwWEZQam8 /edit?usp=sharing
>>
>> It's petsci text so NOTEPAD can almost read it. I don't have the
>> slightest idea what C64 SW can be used to assemble it, but those with
>> any programming skills should be able to adapt the source to their
>> assembler.
>>
>> I uploaded it as a file available to anybody. That way, I only needed
>> one operation so that all interested parties can acquire the source.
>
> Curious. Looks like the man himself said (in this group, way back) that
> his original source was in basic format to be assembled with an
> assembler called PAL. Clearly this isn't in that format. Still,
> interesting file.

I downloaded it and found out, it's actually very simple. Do the following:

- convert from DOS to Unix format (line endings)
- replace all ".asc" with ".text" (carefull with regexp "." when doing
this on Unix)
- replace all colons with newlines

et voila., you now have a perfect fine version which can be pumped
through Style's tmpx. :-) I just did that on a Mac and it worked fine.
I'm also doing a little code formatting on my version so that the code
becomes a little easier to read. Now, if it only had a little more
comments. It's really hard to read. :(
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251173 is a reply to message #251172] Tue, 06 May 2014 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lawless.jim is currently offline  lawless.jim
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Thanks for that source file!

That does look like someone LISTed a PAL file to another file without the line-numbers.

I changed the CR's to CRLF's and did a little reformatting ( indented and changed most of the colons to new lines. )

Here's the result:

http://www.mailsend-online.com/supermon.zip

In the above archive you'll find:

supermon.asm - Source with Windows/DOS CRLF's
smonunx.asm - Source with only Unix LF's
supermon.p00 - an assembled binary org'ed at $c000

I used C64ASM to assemble the above and had no issues ( although I had intended to do some more formatting... )

I didn't really put it through its paces ... I would be interested to know if there are any bugs.

Note that I changed the origin to $c000 so a SYS 49152 should activate the one above. If you'd like it assembled to some other locations, please let me know.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251184 is a reply to message #251152] Tue, 06 May 2014 23:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 11:18:48 AM UTC-6, rusure wrote:
> On Monday, May 5, 2014 6:11:46 PM UTC-6, Paul Förster wrote
>
>> You can also send it it me via email. Thanks very much in advance.
>
>
>
> supermon+64.src has been uploaded to and should be downloadable from
>
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80L9cEZ8YnvTE5nWFMwWEZQam8 /edit?usp=sharing
>
>
>
> It's petsci text so NOTEPAD can almost read it. I don't have the slightest idea what C64 SW can be used to assemble it, but those with any programming skills should be able to adapt the source to their assembler.
>
>
>
> I uploaded it as a file available to anybody. That way, I only needed one operation so that all interested parties can acquire the source.

My Macro Assembler Developement System (MADS) expects source containing machine instructions in petscii lower case letters. Simply adding a line feed to a Commodore end of line carriage return will change the petscii lower case letters to ASCII upper case letters. OK for people reading a NOTEPAD display or printout. MADS chokes on line feeds added to end of line carriage returns. Other Commodore assemblers may also choke on files with petscii end of lines changed to ASCII end of lines.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251185 is a reply to message #251184] Wed, 07 May 2014 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rusure is currently offline  rusure
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J uploaded my adaptation of Mr. Butterfield's Supermon source to work with the Macro Assembler Devekoepment System (MADS). The adaptation can be found below and may be easier to deal with than Butterfield's original.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B80L9cEZ8YnvUll6UFk5TndtMUk /edit?usp=sharing

In the unlikely event that some may be interested, MADS can be found here :

http://www.haddewig.de/nogames64/tools.html

Click on the Commodore Assembler entry. The MADS files from the WEB site are 1 byte longer than those on my original Commodore system disk, except for the DOS WEDGE booting programs. Both WEDGE booters appear to perform equivalent operations. The MADS docs are here:

http://project64.c64.org/misc/index.html
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? - MLMON64.ZIP [message #251226 is a reply to message #250868] Wed, 07 May 2014 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
George is currently offline  George
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Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251234 is a reply to message #251172] Wed, 07 May 2014 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Paul Förster <paul.foerster@gmx.net> writes:

>> Curious. Looks like the man himself said (in this group, way back) that
>> his original source was in basic format to be assembled with an
>> assembler called PAL. Clearly this isn't in that format. Still,
>> interesting file.
>
> I downloaded it and found out, it's actually very simple. Do the following:
>
> - convert from DOS to Unix format (line endings)
> - replace all ".asc" with ".text" (carefull with regexp "." when doing
> this on Unix)
> - replace all colons with newlines

All but one I think? There's a CMP #":" in there too...

I used xa to assemble this. There were some snags, I converted the
original to ASCII with petcat (included with Vice). Looks like xa's fine
with the colons and understands .asc but it didn't like "lsr a" type of
commands then, it complained there's no label 'a' so I had to change
those to plain lsrs, same for and asls and rots too.

Then I also realized everything inside "" was converted by petcat to
lower case ASCII which wasn't the greatest idea so had to convert those
back. But after that xa built an identical binary compared to what tmpx
created when the original was modified as you say.

> et voila., you now have a perfect fine version which can be pumped
> through Style's tmpx. :-) I just did that on a Mac and it worked
> fine. I'm also doing a little code formatting on my version so that
> the code becomes a little easier to read. Now, if it only had a little
> more comments. It's really hard to read. :(

Yeah. One wonders if there were more comments in the basic-like
original.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251241 is a reply to message #251234] Wed, 07 May 2014 15:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Anssi,

> All but one I think? There's a CMP #":" in there too...

hmmm, yes. That's the colon command, I guess. :)

> But after that xa built an identical binary compared to what tmpx
> created when the original was modified as you say.

that's comforting. It always feels good if someone else could verify
the things one does.

> Yeah. One wonders if there were more comments in the basic-like
> original.

I strongly doubt that because those are the programs that get written
and never get changed or maintained. So developers don't "waste" their
time commenting the code. I always do with mine, no matter whether I
know I will have to look at it some time in the future or not. Comments
are just vitally important.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251254 is a reply to message #250868] Thu, 08 May 2014 06:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Aaron Daughtry is currently offline  Aaron Daughtry
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On 2014-05-02 11:14:02 +0000, Paul Förster said:


> most ML monitor programs for the C64 seem to be 8 KB in size. Is there
> any halfway usable alternative that fits in 4 KB or at most 6 KB?
[...]
> Is there such thing? Or is there a source for a monitor program which I
> could adapt for my needs?

I recall many of such things, usually placed at $C000 but some where
also available in different versions, run-able at different addresses
($1000, $4000, ...) a nice one I recall typing myself in. I took the
effort as it was able to work with "illegal" opcodes. Even this one sat
fully in the 4KiB at $C000. I should be able to find it still.

--
SD!
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251255 is a reply to message #251105] Thu, 08 May 2014 06:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Martijn van Buul is currently offline  Martijn van Buul
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* Paul Förster:
> Hi Anssi,
>
>> Anyways, one can see there the apparently unconditional print of the B*
>> after the break label in this code:
>>
>> ldx #$42
>> lda #$2a
>> jsr wrtwo
>
> which makes it kind of an arbitrary welcome message...

My guess is that it's a relic of the past. On the old PET monitor, the
welcome message would be B* when the monitor was entered because of a BRK
instruction, or C* if it was entered because of a call.

See page 4 of

http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/pdfs/PET_Machine_Language_Mo nitor.pdf

My guess is that Supermon merely tried to offer a familiar welcome message..

--
Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251263 is a reply to message #251255] Thu, 08 May 2014 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi Martijn,

> My guess is that it's a relic of the past. On the old PET monitor, the
> welcome message would be B* when the monitor was entered because of a BRK
> instruction, or C* if it was entered because of a call.
> See page 4 of
> http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/pdfs/PET_Machine_Language_Mo nitor.pdf
> My guess is that Supermon merely tried to offer a familiar welcome message..

ah, so that's the reason. And I kept wondering for about 30 years
because I never had any monitor instructions. :) Thanks for the pointer.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251264 is a reply to message #251254] Thu, 08 May 2014 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi SD!,

On 2014-05-08 10:36:45 +0000, SD! said:
> I recall many of such things, usually placed at $C000 but some where
> also available in different versions, run-able at different addresses
> ($1000, $4000, ...) a nice one I recall typing myself in. I took the
> effort as it was able to work with "illegal" opcodes. Even this one sat
> fully in the 4KiB at $C000. I should be able to find it still.

I have a number of monitors already with Supermon+64 being the smalles
with only 2.7K :)
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251270 is a reply to message #251255] Thu, 08 May 2014 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anssi Saari is currently offline  Anssi Saari
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Martijn van Buul <pino@dohd.org> writes:

> My guess is that Supermon merely tried to offer a familiar welcome message..

Cool, mystery solved :) In fact, the perhaps older Supermon 1.2 we most
recently fiddled with greets with its start address, "..SYS 38169" by
default when called, with brk it prints nothing except the register
contents.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251272 is a reply to message #251264] Thu, 08 May 2014 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dott.Piergiorgio is currently offline  dott.Piergiorgio
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Il 08/05/2014 14:55, Paul Förster ha scritto:
> Hi SD!,
>
> On 2014-05-08 10:36:45 +0000, SD! said:
>> I recall many of such things, usually placed at $C000 but some where
>> also available in different versions, run-able at different addresses
>> ($1000, $4000, ...) a nice one I recall typing myself in. I took the
>> effort as it was able to work with "illegal" opcodes. Even this one
>> sat fully in the 4KiB at $C000. I should be able to find it still.
>
> I have a number of monitors already with Supermon+64 being the smalles
> with only 2.7K :)

side question, considering that today there's plenty of emulator, ASM
sources and excellent *ROM programmers, someone has tinkered about a
"composite EPROM", having on it not only monitor, but also LM utilities,
not necessarily onlyfor asm programming/debugging ?

to me seems an excellent thing to hack around...
(sadly age and time don't allow me to do serious hacking/tinkering...)

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251279 is a reply to message #251272] Thu, 08 May 2014 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi dott. Piergiorgio

> side question, considering that today there's plenty of emulator, ASM
> sources and excellent *ROM programmers, someone has tinkered about a
> "composite EPROM", having on it not only monitor, but also LM
> utilities, not necessarily onlyfor asm programming/debugging ?
>
> to me seems an excellent thing to hack around...
> (sadly age and time don't allow me to do serious hacking/tinkering...)

well, it should be quite easy to do the standard CBM80 card type EPROM.
See here:
http://ar.c64.org/rrwiki/images/6/67/The_Transactor_Vol05_01 _1984_Jul_How_Carts_work.pdf

All you have to do is exec the proper init sequence for video stuff,
etc. and then you can put into the EPROM anything you want, with a
little tinkering, even a BASIC program. :)

If you have a ready (and tested by you) image, then I can burn an 27C64
(8K) EPROM for you if you don't have access to an EPROM burner. But
you'd have to have a cart to put it on, though. I only have one and I
will keep that. :)

If you send me the programs you want in the EPROM, you can drop me a
mail with them attached and I see what I can do. But beware, this is no
promise that I actually a) get it done and b) if so, that it's done
particularly quickly. Burning an EPROM doesn't take much time, but
putting the stuff properly together requires some time which I'm also
short of.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251284 is a reply to message #251279] Thu, 08 May 2014 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dott.Piergiorgio is currently offline  dott.Piergiorgio
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Il 08/05/2014 20:56, Paul Förster ha scritto:
> Hi dott. Piergiorgio
>
>> side question, considering that today there's plenty of emulator, ASM
>> sources and excellent *ROM programmers, someone has tinkered about a
>> "composite EPROM", having on it not only monitor, but also LM
>> utilities, not necessarily onlyfor asm programming/debugging ?
>>
>> to me seems an excellent thing to hack around...
>> (sadly age and time don't allow me to do serious hacking/tinkering...)
>
> well, it should be quite easy to do the standard CBM80 card type EPROM.
> See here:
> http://ar.c64.org/rrwiki/images/6/67/The_Transactor_Vol05_01 _1984_Jul_How_Carts_work.pdf
>
> All you have to do is exec the proper init sequence for video stuff,
> etc. and then you can put into the EPROM anything you want, with a
> little tinkering, even a BASIC program. :)
>
> If you have a ready (and tested by you) image, then I can burn an 27C64
> (8K) EPROM for you if you don't have access to an EPROM burner. But
> you'd have to have a cart to put it on, though. I only have one and I
> will keep that. :)

well, today I do 8-bit coding/programming activities exclusively with
emulators... but if I someday put together a good toolbox (literal !)
binary, I'll surely sent to you the binary (and/or the sources/patches)
to look on :)

out of curiosity on hardware, the voltage signals (data *and* address)
to the upper nybbles of C64's color ram are also on the expansion port ?
these non-existant upper nybbles of RAM looks to me like the best place
for mapping a "write to loc" discrete logic type of external cart
bankswitching....

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.
Re: 4 KB or 6 KB ML monitor? [message #251294 is a reply to message #251284] Thu, 08 May 2014 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Paul Förster is currently offline  Paul Förster
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Hi dott. Piergiorgio,

> well, today I do 8-bit coding/programming activities exclusively with
> emulators...

same here. I do the final testing, or testing of special features which
I cannot really test in an emu, on the real thing.

> but if I someday put together a good toolbox (literal !) binary, I'll
> surely sent to you the binary (and/or the sources/patches) to look on :)

ok.

> out of curiosity on hardware, the voltage signals (data *and* address)
> to the upper nybbles of C64's color ram are also on the expansion port
> ? these non-existant upper nybbles of RAM looks to me like the best
> place for mapping a "write to loc" discrete logic type of external cart
> bankswitching....

AFAIR, the whole 64K of address lines is available on the expansion
port. As for the high nybbles of the color RAM. Those are not wired,
not even INSIDE the C64, so they're surely also not available on the
expansion port. You should take a look at the schematics on zimmers.net
for exact schematics.
--
cul8er

Paul
paul.foerster@gmx.net
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