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Anime and incest [message #246116] Tue, 04 March 2014 17:42 Go to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

There are some anime that have incest as their them (for example KisXSix,
Koi Kaze, etc.). That kinda skeeves me out, but I also think that things
that skeeve me out can be legitimate plot elements as well.

In KxS, they seem to be attempting comedy. My standards are not
stratospheric, or even really that high, but they did not even reach them.

Much of the point of the show seems to be the fan service. If that was
the point, they should have put the girls on the swim team like in Kenko
Zenrakei Suieibu Umisho. Or perhaps contrive a reason for the girls to
run around in just their pantsu like in Strike Witches.

They use the excuse that the protagonists are not really siblings and are
step siblings, and thus the attraction is just fine, however, it is not
explained (to my satisfaction, anyway).

Are the girls just majorly horny, but at the same time too lazy to do
more than walk down the hall to get their groove on. The show shows
something about how the girls protect their little brother, but it does
not really explain how this crazy sexual attraction. I gave up after the
first few episodes, so perhaps a more detailed explanation is given in
the shows I did not watch.

In Koi Kaze, the show is not an attempt at comedy, nor is there any fan
service, if I recall correctly. Instead it is sort of a psychological
study (in as much as a cartoon can be a psychological study) about what
happens when such an attraction starts developing.

For example, if the protagonists start developing these feelings before
they know they are brother and sister, do they keep developing, or do
they come to an abrupt stop with an epiphany like "eww ick, not with my
sister/brother."

I personally would have had an ephiphany like "eww, ick, not with a 16-
year-old," but I understand that relationships between older guys and
little girls are more acceptable in Japan, at least based on the reaction
of the other characters.

Many things about the show skeeve me out, such as the guy sniffing the
bra (eww ick) or thinking about her when engaged in certain private
activities (eww, ick, double ick, so much ickiness, I have to resort to a
euphemism to describe the activity), but I do think KK was a legitimate
exploration of these issues and not just an excuse for fanservice and
"comedic situations."

Brian Christiansen















'
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246121 is a reply to message #246116] Tue, 04 March 2014 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arne Luft is currently offline  Arne Luft
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Brian
<brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:

> There are some anime that have incest as their them

Try "Yosuga no Sora". When you have finished it, it is a good idea to
watch it again with the knowledge you have then.



Btw, in many countries of this planet incest between minors will not
be punished, even if it is forbidden, if both had agreed to it out of
their own free will. Also there are many countries, where incest
between adults is allowed.

Countries, which follow French law are more liberal in this case than
those, which follow Anglo-Saxon law.

The fear of degeneration as a result of incest is a problem, which has
nothing to do with incest or endogamous marriages itself. The
degeneration comes as a result of the exogamous impact in
(theoretical) pure endogamous societies. That means, the ban of incest
is a necessity of exogamous societies, and not of incest itself. That
is one view (Levi-Strauss) of science.

Well, I don't have a sister. :-)
I just was looking into the matter out of interest, after I had
watched "Yosuga no sora".
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246128 is a reply to message #246116] Tue, 04 March 2014 20:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:27:23 +0100, Arne Luft wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Brian
> <brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There are some anime that have incest as their them
>
> Try "Yosuga no Sora". When you have finished it, it is a good idea to
> watch it again with the knowledge you have then.
>
I have, I just didn't think talking about it would really add that much
to what I said.

I thought it was pretty OK up to episode 9, then the last 3 descended
into "eww ick"-dom pretty rapidly, at least in my judgment it did.

Even so, they didn't use it for an excuse for forced fanservice like KxS
did.

Brian Christiansen
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246130 is a reply to message #246128] Tue, 04 March 2014 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On 03/04/2014 05:50 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 00:27:23 +0100, Arne Luft wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 4 Mar 2014 22:42:27 +0000 (UTC), Brian
>> <brian_christians@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> There are some anime that have incest as their them
>>
>> Try "Yosuga no Sora". When you have finished it, it is a good idea to
>> watch it again with the knowledge you have then.
>>
> I have, I just didn't think talking about it would really add that much
> to what I said.
>
> I thought it was pretty OK up to episode 9, then the last 3 descended
> into "eww ick"-dom pretty rapidly, at least in my judgment it did.
>
> Even so, they didn't use it for an excuse for forced fanservice like KxS
> did.
>
> Brian Christiansen
>

Still it will be a theme in what was a feudal nation some 146 years ago
in which endogamous marriage was a frequent matter with overly
close individuals married to each other to keep property in the
family. It is clear from Japanese history that a specific small group
of families intermarried to produce Emperors and Empresses and that
these families thought so much of this that when a new family tried
to join the upper ranks of the aristocracy in the 1600s the family
was rejected because the founder of the new line was not aristocratic.
I speak of course of Toyotomi Hideyoshi who achieved the first feudal
unification of Japan. His family was extirpated by the Tokugawa
Ieyoshi(sic) at the beginning of the Tokugawa shogunate. This of course
had little to to with anything but Ieyoshi's desire to protect the
government he had founded from a future threat. But samurai families
did their best to keep power and inheritance from diffusion and
frequently married close cousins.
Incest (in Western terms) was modeled by the Imperial family
with only about 6 houses from which brides or consorts could be
chosen, The fact that the Emperor and many high nobility were
polygamous helped deal with the problems of genetic re-inforcement of
bad genes. Event the Meji Emperor of the 19th Century had multiple
wives and the tradition of the wives being from those important families
was written into law. This changed after WW II and the current tenno
is the first to marry outside of the traditional families.
Remember too that the Tale of Genji is taught in Japanese schools and
its multiple sexual arrangements are a model for harem
comedies.
So incest as a theme or plot device is going to linger in
popular entertainment for some time to come, despite legal changes
after WW II. I was really surprised when I started reading English
novels as to the frequency of the use of incest as a plot device.

bliss
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246148 is a reply to message #246116] Wed, 05 March 2014 02:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Brian is currently offline  Brian
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Registered: February 2012
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:05:32 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:

> Still it will be a theme in what was a feudal nation some 146
years ago
> in which endogamous marriage was a frequent matter with overly close
> individuals married to each other to keep property in the family.

That may have been how the ruling class and the landed gentry (or
whatever the Japnese word for that is), but what about the peasants and
serfs who worked, but did not actually own, the land. I am pretty sure
that class greatly outnumbered the ruling class.

Brian Christiansen
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246174 is a reply to message #246148] Wed, 05 March 2014 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On 03/04/2014 11:39 PM, Brian wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:05:32 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>
>> Still it will be a theme in what was a feudal nation some 146
> years ago
>> in which endogamous marriage was a frequent matter with overly close
>> individuals married to each other to keep property in the family.
>
> That may have been how the ruling class and the landed gentry (or
> whatever the Japnese word for that is), but what about the peasants and
> serfs who worked, but did not actually own, the land. I am pretty sure
> that class greatly outnumbered the ruling class.
>
> Brian Christiansen
>
Who wrote the stories that the literate part of every class soaked up?
The educated whether from upper most class or merchant.

The literate people recited stories to the lowest classes
and the servants of the landed were likely from the lower classes
which provided a degree of social ideal spreading thru the lower
classes.
What did the literate learn? Religious texts and genealogies,
Things like the tale of the Heiki (Taira) were for consumption by the
literate in Edo/Kyoto/Osaka. Both the Taira and the Genji families
orginated in the endogamous families of the Imperial court, The
culture was saturated with such stuff and everyone(who became
prominent)claimed descent from Taira and the Genji families which
were originally founded by the Imperial family's rejects who were
given the names by the Emperor and removed from the possibility
of succession to the because they had mothers who were not noble
enough. Even the sword saint Musashi was able to claim descent
from the Minamoto.
[Considering the habits of upper class use of the lower
classes they are now likely all cousins at some remove just like
the rest of the human race.]
In modern society we have middle class families trying
to live the lives of the wealthy to put up the front rather than
to live within their means. In Edo we had merchants who despite
the sumptuary laws limiting their dress and arms still did their
best to imitate the upper(samurai) classes. We had farmer's sons
like Kondo Isamu (shinsengummi) adopted by childless samurai in
order to continue the name and the prayers to the ancestral
spirits and merchants would marry into samurai families which
favor was obtained by paying off family debts. So the classes
mixed and the lower classes picked up bad habits from their
"betters".

Oh and the annoying panty shots are an off-shoot of the
ancient upper class tradition of peeping which was trying to
catch a glimpse of upper class women to see what they looked
like. If you got a glimpse of them you might try for closer
contact. But people who peep are likely to see other things
which might influence their immediate and future behaviors.

Right now reading manga "Hi Izuru Tokoro no Tenshi"
which is about the famous Prince Shotoko and his love for
a man. His so-called Constitution is matter of mention in
several modern stories which I have watched, KOR among them.

The Japanese are a sexy people who haven't bothered
much about hiding the details.

bliss
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246417 is a reply to message #246174] Thu, 06 March 2014 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1140
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From Newsgroup: rec.arts.anime.misc

On 03/05/2014 07:33 AM, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
> On 03/04/2014 11:39 PM, Brian wrote:
>> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 19:05:32 -0800, Bobbie Sellers wrote:
>>
>>> Still it will be a theme in what was a feudal nation some 146
>> years ago
>>> in which endogamous marriage was a frequent matter with overly close
>>> individuals married to each other to keep property in the family.
>>
>> That may have been how the ruling class and the landed gentry (or
>> whatever the Japnese word for that is), but what about the peasants and
>> serfs who worked, but did not actually own, the land. I am pretty sure
>> that class greatly outnumbered the ruling class.
>>
>> Brian Christiansen
>>
> Who wrote the stories that the literate part of every class soaked
> up? The educated whether from upper most class or merchant.
>
> The literate people recited stories to the lowest classes
> and the servants of the landed were likely from the lower classes
> which provided a degree of social ideal spreading thru the lower
> classes.
> What did the literate learn? Religious texts and genealogies,
> Things like the tale of the Heiki (Taira) were for consumption by the
> literate in Edo/Kyoto/Osaka. Both the Taira and the Genji families
> orginated in the endogamous families of the Imperial court, The
> culture was saturated with such stuff and everyone(who became
> prominent)claimed descent from Taira and the Genji families which
> were originally founded by the Imperial family's rejects who were
> given the names by the Emperor and removed from the possibility
> of succession to the because they had mothers who were not noble
> enough. Even the sword saint Musashi was able to claim descent
> from the Minamoto.
> [Considering the habits of upper class use of the lower
> classes they are now likely all cousins at some remove just like
> the rest of the human race.]
> In modern society we have middle class families trying
> to live the lives of the wealthy to put up the front rather than
> to live within their means. In Edo we had merchants who despite
> the sumptuary laws limiting their dress and arms still did their
> best to imitate the upper(samurai) classes. We had farmer's sons
> like Kondo Isamu (shinsengummi) adopted by childless samurai in
> order to continue the name and the prayers to the ancestral
> spirits and merchants would marry into samurai families which
> favor was obtained by paying off family debts. So the classes
> mixed and the lower classes picked up bad habits from their
> "betters".
>
> Oh and the annoying panty shots are an off-shoot of the
> ancient upper class tradition of peeping which was trying to
> catch a glimpse of upper class women to see what they looked
> like. If you got a glimpse of them you might try for closer
> contact. But people who peep are likely to see other things
> which might influence their immediate and future behaviors.
>
> Right now reading manga "Hi Izuru Tokoro no Tenshi"
> which is about the famous Prince Shotoko and his love for
> a man. His so-called Constitution is matter of mention in
> several modern stories which I have watched, KOR among them.
>
> The Japanese are a sexy people who haven't bothered
> much about hiding the details.
>
> bliss

Well I am learning more from the manga than I expected.
The polygamous men frequently married their half sister and married
their sons to the daughters of different mothers. So any of the
surviving families are lucky to be around.

bliss
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246610 is a reply to message #246417] Fri, 07 March 2014 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Galen is currently offline  Galen
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On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:10:49 -0800, Bobbie Sellers
<bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:

>
> Well I am learning more from the manga than I expected.
> The polygamous men frequently married their half sister and married
> their sons to the daughters of different mothers. So any of the
> surviving families are lucky to be around.
>
> bliss

You seem to be assuming that the children of the wives were
descended from their husbands; I'd bet otherwise.

-Galen
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Re: Anime and incest [message #246616 is a reply to message #246610] Fri, 07 March 2014 22:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sellers is currently offline  sellers
Messages: 1140
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On 03/07/2014 06:52 PM, Galen wrote:
> On Thu, 06 Mar 2014 19:10:49 -0800, Bobbie Sellers
> <bliss-sf4ever@dslextreme.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well I am learning more from the manga than I expected.
>> The polygamous men frequently married their half sister and married
>> their sons to the daughters of different mothers. So any of the
>> surviving families are lucky to be around.
>>
>> bliss
>
> You seem to be assuming that the children of the wives were
> descended from their husbands; I'd bet otherwise.
>
> -Galen
>
From what I have read you are probably right.

bliss
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Re: Anime and incest [message #355269 is a reply to message #246116] Sat, 11 November 2017 00:52 Go to previous message
Andrew is currently offline  Andrew
Messages: 12
Registered: May 2012
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Junior Member
On Tuesday, March 4, 2014 at 2:42:27 PM UTC-8, Brian wrote:
> There are some anime that have incest as their them (for example KisXSix,
> Koi Kaze, etc.). That kinda skeeves me out, but I also think that things
> that skeeve me out can be legitimate plot elements as well.
>
> In KxS, they seem to be attempting comedy. My standards are not
> stratospheric, or even really that high, but they did not even reach them.
>
> Much of the point of the show seems to be the fan service. If that was
> the point, they should have put the girls on the swim team like in Kenko
> Zenrakei Suieibu Umisho. Or perhaps contrive a reason for the girls to
> run around in just their pantsu like in Strike Witches.
>
> They use the excuse that the protagonists are not really siblings and are
> step siblings, and thus the attraction is just fine, however, it is not
> explained (to my satisfaction, anyway).
>
> Are the girls just majorly horny, but at the same time too lazy to do
> more than walk down the hall to get their groove on. The show shows
> something about how the girls protect their little brother, but it does
> not really explain how this crazy sexual attraction. I gave up after the
> first few episodes, so perhaps a more detailed explanation is given in
> the shows I did not watch.
>
> In Koi Kaze, the show is not an attempt at comedy, nor is there any fan
> service, if I recall correctly. Instead it is sort of a psychological
> study (in as much as a cartoon can be a psychological study) about what
> happens when such an attraction starts developing.
>
> For example, if the protagonists start developing these feelings before
> they know they are brother and sister, do they keep developing, or do
> they come to an abrupt stop with an epiphany like "eww ick, not with my
> sister/brother."
>
> I personally would have had an ephiphany like "eww, ick, not with a 16-
> year-old," but I understand that relationships between older guys and
> little girls are more acceptable in Japan, at least based on the reaction
> of the other characters.
>
> Many things about the show skeeve me out, such as the guy sniffing the
> bra (eww ick) or thinking about her when engaged in certain private
> activities (eww, ick, double ick, so much ickiness, I have to resort to a
> euphemism to describe the activity), but I do think KK was a legitimate
> exploration of these issues and not just an excuse for fanservice and
> "comedic situations."
>
> Brian Christiansen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Galaxy Express has incest.

Andrew Kieswetter
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> '
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