| Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200676] |
Sat, 20 June 2009 15:31  |
dunric
Messages: 729
Registered: December 2004
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I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
some other opinions of Jack?
Paul
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200678 is a reply to message #200676] |
Sat, 20 June 2009 23:09  |
Sam Gillett
Messages: 2422
Registered: June 2003
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"dunric" <lumberjacks76@lycos.com> wrote ...
> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
> some other opinions of Jack?
I am sure that some will have a less favorable opinion of Jack than yours.
For example, he could be called stubborn and hardheaded. However, no matter
what anyone's opinion of Jack Tramiel is, he made Commodore what it was in
the days of its greatest glory. He made Commodore the greatest 8-bit home
computer that was ever on the face of this ball of rock and dirt we call
Earth.
Then Irving Gould came along and made Commodore what it is today. Bankrupt!
And gone... Except for fond memories in the minds of the faithful few. Many
of whom can be found in this newsgroup.
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200680 is a reply to message #200676] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 04:58 |
Anssi Saari
Messages: 327
Registered: January 2012
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dunric <lumberjacks76@lycos.com> writes:
> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
> some other opinions of Jack?
I think I first heard of the guy when he went to Atari and an Atari
using friend tried to show how Atari rules supreme because of that. In
my teenage fog back then I wasn't impressed, some old fart getting a
new job seemed completely irrelevant to anything...
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200681 is a reply to message #200676] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 07:43 |
jon
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2013
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dunric wrote:
> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
> some other opinions of Jack?
>
> Paul
I think Chuck Peddle is more important, his MOS 6502 stared the whole
thing (Commodore AND Apple!).
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200682 is a reply to message #200681] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 09:49 |
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Originally posted by: lyricalnanoha
On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, jon wrote:
> dunric wrote:
>> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>> some other opinions of Jack?
>>
>> Paul
>
> I think Chuck Peddle is more important, his MOS 6502 stared the whole thing
> (Commodore AND Apple!).
>
And Atari, not? Plus the NES had a 6502 derivative, and the SNES used a
65816.
(and the 6502's easier to fully grok than the Z80 everyone else used. :P)
-uso.
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200683 is a reply to message #200682] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 12:04 |
jon
Messages: 30
Registered: May 2013
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lyricalnanoha wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, jon wrote:
>
>> dunric wrote:
>>> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>>> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>>> some other opinions of Jack?
>>>
>>> Paul
>>
>> I think Chuck Peddle is more important, his MOS 6502 stared the whole
>> thing (Commodore AND Apple!).
>>
>
> And Atari, not? Plus the NES had a 6502 derivative, and the SNES used a
> 65816.
>
> (and the 6502's easier to fully grok than the Z80 everyone else used. :P)
>
> -uso.
Peddle is a genus, and the true father of the Personal Computer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Peddle
http://www.commodore.ca/history/people/chuck_peddle/chuck_pe ddle.htm
He's doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200688 is a reply to message #200676] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 14:28 |
Christian Brandt
Messages: 97
Registered: April 2012
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dunric schrieb:
> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
> some other opinions of Jack?
I remember him being being a pocket size dictator whose weird ethics
are directly responsible for building highly incompatible computer lines
with a shady argument like "then we can sell our software twice". Why
was a PET2001 incompatible to a C64?
After Tramiel left CBM saw the light and tried to stay compatible, the
C128 is the first non-Tramiel-Solution, the C65 was bare of any Tramiel
ethics, the Amiga line was Tramiels Arch Enemy and so on. As he didn't
have any influence on the commercial success of the amiga I tend to
ignore him.
Even in the Atari theatre Tramiel tried his compability tricks first
and only took care of compability after the PC and Amiga market showed
him the light. Ever tried to run very early software written for the
260ST at bigger machines and visa versa? Later on he saw the light but
like most closed architectures his ideas usually came too little and too
late though all in all he seemed quite competent struggling in a dieing
home computer market.
Christan Brandt
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200698 is a reply to message #200678] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 23:15 |
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Originally posted by: Joe Cassara
On Jun 20, 11:09 pm, "Sam Gillett" <sgillettnos...@diespammergte.net>
wrote:
> "dunric" <lumberjack...@lycos.com> wrote ...
>
>> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>> some other opinions of Jack?
>
> I am sure that some will have a less favorable opinion of Jack than yours..
> For example, he could be called stubborn and hardheaded. However, no matter
> what anyone's opinion of Jack Tramiel is, he made Commodore what it was in
> the days of its greatest glory. He made Commodore the greatest 8-bit home
> computer that was ever on the face of this ball of rock and dirt we call
> Earth.
Hear, hear!
> Then Irving Gould came along and made Commodore what it is today. Bankrupt!
> And gone... Except for fond memories in the minds of the faithful few. Many
> of whom can be found in this newsgroup.
Let's not forget how Gould kept Commodore solvent. Though had he
stuck to finances and not forced Jack out (or, perhaps, not later
dumped Rattigan), events might have played out differently.
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200699 is a reply to message #200683] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 23:20 |
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Originally posted by: Joe Cassara
On Jun 21, 12:04 pm, jon <j...@invalid.com> wrote:
> lyricalnanoha wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, jon wrote:
>
>>> dunric wrote:
>>>> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>>>> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>>>> some other opinions of Jack?
>
>>>> Paul
>
>>> I think Chuck Peddle is more important, his MOS 6502 stared the whole
>>> thing (Commodore AND Apple!).
>
>> And Atari, not? Plus the NES had a 6502 derivative, and the SNES used a
>> 65816.
>
>> (and the 6502's easier to fully grok than the Z80 everyone else used. :P)
>
>> -uso.
>
> Peddle is a genus, and the true father of the Personal Computer.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Peddle
>
> http://www.commodore.ca/history/people/chuck_peddle/chuck_pe ddle.htm
>
> He's doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
I'm not fond of handing out titles like "father of" to anything,
especially the personal computer. I think we all agree Steve Woznaik
gets a little too much credit among the Apple Revisionists and Chuck
Peddle deserves a brighter spotlight on his contributions. But Woz
was a massive trailblazer. And what about the work of Lee
Felsenstein? Ed Roberts? What about the fathers of the first killer
app, Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston?
No, the personal computer was a group effort, born from the labor and
passion of many great men and women.
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200700 is a reply to message #200699] |
Sun, 21 June 2009 23:27 |
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Originally posted by: winston19842005
On 6/21/09 11:20 PM, in article
40d3d790-53fc-49df-b319-22bdf2ac5232@l21g2000vba.googlegroups.com, "Joe
Cassara" <joe.j.cassara@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 21, 12:04 pm, jon <j...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> lyricalnanoha wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, jon wrote:
>>
>>>> dunric wrote:
>>>> > I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>>>> > to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>>>> > some other opinions of Jack?
>>
>>>> > Paul
>>
>>>> I think Chuck Peddle is more important, his MOS 6502 stared the whole
>>>> thing (Commodore AND Apple!).
>>
>>> And Atari, not? Plus the NES had a 6502 derivative, and the SNES used a
>>> 65816.
>>
>>> (and the 6502's easier to fully grok than the Z80 everyone else used. :P)
>>
>>> -uso.
>>
>> Peddle is a genus, and the true father of the Personal Computer.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Peddle
>>
>> http://www.commodore.ca/history/people/chuck_peddle/chuck_pe ddle.htm
>>
>> He's doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
>
> I'm not fond of handing out titles like "father of" to anything,
> especially the personal computer. I think we all agree Steve Woznaik
> gets a little too much credit among the Apple Revisionists and Chuck
> Peddle deserves a brighter spotlight on his contributions. But Woz
> was a massive trailblazer. And what about the work of Lee
> Felsenstein? Ed Roberts? What about the fathers of the first killer
> app, Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston?
>
> No, the personal computer was a group effort, born from the labor and
> passion of many great men and women.
Jack Kilby, the father of the integrated circuit? Imagine a computer made
out of transistors instead...
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200702 is a reply to message #200681] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 01:07 |
dowcom
Messages: 773
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Sun, Jun 21, 2009, 12:43pm (CDT+6) From:
jon@invalid.com (jon)
script:
> I think Chuck Peddle is more important,
> his MOS 6502 stared the whole thing
> (Commodore AND Apple!).
Interesting. I had been aware of Bill Mensch having a (big) hand in the
6502, and thought that Peddle was more important to the PET.
Of course, we might remember that MOS might not have been able to
capitalize on the 6502 if Jack had not bought them.
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
The fact that 'conventional wisdom' is indeed 'conventional',
does not, in any way, imply that it is wise.
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200706 is a reply to message #200688] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 04:33 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Christian Brandt wrote:
> dunric schrieb:
>> I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>> to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>> some other opinions of Jack?
>
> I remember him being being a pocket size dictator whose weird ethics
> are directly responsible for building highly incompatible computer lines
> with a shady argument like "then we can sell our software twice". Why
> was a PET2001 incompatible to a C64?
A "pocket size dictator"??? Jack Tramiel must have weighed 300 pounds!!!
>
> After Tramiel left CBM saw the light and tried to stay compatible, the
> C128 is the first non-Tramiel-Solution, the C65 was bare of any Tramiel
> ethics, the Amiga line was Tramiels Arch Enemy and so on. As he didn't
> have any influence on the commercial success of the amiga I tend to
> ignore him.
I believe that what I considered the viciousness of Jack Tramiel was
"post traumatic stress" from being a Holocaust survivor. ISTM that he
and his father were the only two in his immediate family that survived
the Holocaust.
>
> Even in the Atari theatre Tramiel tried his compability tricks first
> and only took care of compability after the PC and Amiga market showed
> him the light. Ever tried to run very early software written for the
> 260ST at bigger machines and visa versa? Later on he saw the light but
> like most closed architectures his ideas usually came too little and too
> late though all in all he seemed quite competent struggling in a dieing
> home computer market.
>
Jack Tramiel *screwed* his dealers by some of his business actions with
the Atari ST. Microsoft would *not* even develop software for the ST
because of his business policies.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------- -----+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------- -----+
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200707 is a reply to message #200699] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 04:34 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Joe Cassara wrote:
> On Jun 21, 12:04 pm, jon <j...@invalid.com> wrote:
>> lyricalnanoha wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009, jon wrote:
>>>> dunric wrote:
>>>> > I saw him as a leader and visionary who brought affordable computing
>>>> > to the masses ("Computers for the masses, not the classes"). What are
>>>> > some other opinions of Jack?
>>>> > Paul
>>>> I think Chuck Peddle is more important, his MOS 6502 stared the whole
>>>> thing (Commodore AND Apple!).
>>> And Atari, not? Plus the NES had a 6502 derivative, and the SNES used a
>>> 65816.
>>> (and the 6502's easier to fully grok than the Z80 everyone else used. :P)
>>> -uso.
>> Peddle is a genus, and the true father of the Personal Computer.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Peddle
>>
>> http://www.commodore.ca/history/people/chuck_peddle/chuck_pe ddle.htm
>>
>> He's doesn't get the recognition he deserves.
>
> I'm not fond of handing out titles like "father of" to anything,
> especially the personal computer. I think we all agree Steve Woznaik
> gets a little too much credit among the Apple Revisionists and Chuck
> Peddle deserves a brighter spotlight on his contributions. But Woz
> was a massive trailblazer. And what about the work of Lee
> Felsenstein? Ed Roberts? What about the fathers of the first killer
> app, Dan Bricklin and Bob Frankston?
>
> No, the personal computer was a group effort, born from the labor and
> passion of many great men and women.
And on the business end of microcomputers, don't forget Adam Osborne.
--
+----------------------------------------------------------- -----+
| Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net |
+----------------------------------------------------------- -----+
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200708 is a reply to message #200688] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 06:01 |
Miika Seppanen
Messages: 11
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:28:28 +0200, Christian Brandt
<brandtc@psi5.com> wrote:
> After Tramiel left CBM saw the light and tried to stay compatible, the
> C128 is the first non-Tramiel-Solution, the C65 was bare of any Tramiel
> ethics, the Amiga line was Tramiels Arch Enemy and so on. As he didn't
> have any influence on the commercial success of the amiga I tend to
> ignore him.
Keeping the compatibility with Amiga-line was rather easy because the
development of it after initial launch was close to zero. One of the
main reasons to its failure.
-Miika
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200710 is a reply to message #200709] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 08:19 |
Ronald J. Hall
Messages: 98
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Member |
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On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:02:25 +0000, Miika Seppanen wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 03:33:04 -0500, Charles Richmond
> <frizzle@tx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>> the Atari ST. Microsoft would *not* even develop software for the ST
>> because of his business policies.
>
> So there was something good in those policies after all. :)
>
> -Miika
<ROFLOL>
--
Welcome To DarkForce! www.darkforce.org "The Fuji Lives.!"
An Atari SW/HW based BBS - Telnet:darkforce-bbs.dyndns.org
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200714 is a reply to message #200706] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 17:08 |
Anssi Saari
Messages: 327
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charles Richmond <frizzle@tx.rr.com> writes:
> Jack Tramiel *screwed* his dealers by some of his business actions
> with the Atari ST. Microsoft would *not* even develop software for the
> ST because of his business policies.
Hehe, so Atari ST is "Wintel free" then, nothing from Microsoft and
nothing from Intel? I guess later Amigas are the same, those without
MS Basic in them...
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200717 is a reply to message #200706] |
Mon, 22 June 2009 21:58 |
Sam Gillett
Messages: 2422
Registered: June 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Charles Richmond" <frizzle@tx.rr.com> wrote ...
>
> Jack Tramiel *screwed* his dealers by some of his business actions with the
> Atari ST. Microsoft would *not* even develop software for the ST because of
> his business policies.
Maybe Microsoft remembered how Jack Tramiel screwed them on the Commodore
BASIC deal. ;-) Way to go Jack!!
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200747 is a reply to message #200714] |
Tue, 23 June 2009 23:51 |
Kelli Halliburton
Messages: 132
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Anssi Saari wrote:
> Charles Richmond <frizzle@tx.rr.com> writes:
>
>> Jack Tramiel *screwed* his dealers by some of his business actions
>> with the Atari ST. Microsoft would *not* even develop software for the
>> ST because of his business policies.
>
> Hehe, so Atari ST is "Wintel free" then, nothing from Microsoft and
> nothing from Intel? I guess later Amigas are the same, those without
> MS Basic in them...
Amigas do not have MS BASIC in ROM like so many earlier computers did.
You had to load it from disk. And it was notoriously picky about being
installed on a hard disk. One could go so far as to say that only those
few who managed to get it installed on a hard disk could be said to have
MS BASIC *in* their Amigas. Otherwise, it was just on a removable floppy.
The IBM world did benefit from Microsoft's experience with the Amiga.
Many of the characteristics of MS AmigaBASIC were carried over into
Qbasic, Quick BASIC (they really are two separate products), BASIC
Professional Development System, and even Visual BASIC for DOS.
The PET contained a version of MS BASIC, and every Commodore 8-bit
computer from that point on carried a derivative or expansion of that code.
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| Re: Who was Jack Tramiel to you? [message #200748 is a reply to message #200708] |
Wed, 24 June 2009 00:09 |
Kelli Halliburton
Messages: 132
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Miika Seppanen wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 20:28:28 +0200, Christian Brandt
> <brandtc@psi5.com> wrote:
>
>> After Tramiel left CBM saw the light and tried to stay compatible, the
>> C128 is the first non-Tramiel-Solution, the C65 was bare of any Tramiel
>> ethics, the Amiga line was Tramiels Arch Enemy and so on. As he didn't
>> have any influence on the commercial success of the amiga I tend to
>> ignore him.
>
> Keeping the compatibility with Amiga-line was rather easy because the
> development of it after initial launch was close to zero. One of the
> main reasons to its failure.
>
> -Miika
The developments in the Amiga line after the 1000:
500 - Kickstart in ROM
2000 - multiple Zorro slots; also video slot, CPU slot, bridge slots
Bridgeboard - 8086, 80286, 80386SX
2500 - 68020, 68851, 68881, 68030, 68882
3000 - ECS, SCSI onboard, 31kHz RGB
3000T - 68040
3000UX - Amiga Unix SVR4
2024 - high resolution monitor
2410 - 24-bit graphics card
4000 - AGA, IDE onboard, industry standard SIMMs
1200 - PCMCIA slot, 2.5" hard drive bay
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