| rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198938] |
Sun, 01 March 2009 11:33  |
rusure
Messages: 1030
Registered: March 2012
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I saw this on cable. Some guy wrote critical evidence in his wife's
murder on 5.25 disks. Couldn't have been a Commodore hauncho, must
have been an Apple brain. While the disks were in the possession of
the police, the guy managed to cut up the disks into 5 or 10 pieces
each with pinking shears. The police were pretty bright too. Anyway,
the police tried to piece together the disk puzzles with special
scotch tape. The program mentioned the adhesive on postit notes.
Only the disks side B was taped. The first attempt to read the disks
destroyed the drive head because the tape was too thick. On the
second try, thinner tape was used and enough evidence was retrieved to
convict the guy.
Can data be retrieved when disks are exposed to magnetic fields like
those used iat airport security gates?
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198939 is a reply to message #198938] |
Sun, 01 March 2009 12:01  |
Clocky
Messages: 1212
Registered: December 2011
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rusure wrote:
> I saw this on cable. Some guy wrote critical evidence in his wife's
> murder on 5.25 disks. Couldn't have been a Commodore hauncho, must
> have been an Apple brain. While the disks were in the possession of
> the police, the guy managed to cut up the disks into 5 or 10 pieces
> each with pinking shears. The police were pretty bright too. Anyway,
> the police tried to piece together the disk puzzles with special
> scotch tape. The program mentioned the adhesive on postit notes.
> Only the disks side B was taped. The first attempt to read the disks
> destroyed the drive head because the tape was too thick. On the
> second try, thinner tape was used and enough evidence was retrieved to
> convict the guy.
>
> Can data be retrieved when disks are exposed to magnetic fields like
> those used iat airport security gates?
Yep, not a problem.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198945 is a reply to message #198938] |
Sun, 01 March 2009 20:53 |
Joe Forster/STA
Messages: 371
Registered: March 2013
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> Can data be retrieved when disks are exposed to magnetic fields like
> those used iat airport security gates?
Kürt Ltd. in Hungary (http://www.kurt.hu , also has English pages) is
a world-wide known data rescue company. They can restore data from
much more damaged stuff, they're just not cheap at all (e.g. about 100
Euros per floppy disk).
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198946 is a reply to message #198945] |
Sun, 01 March 2009 23:11 |
rusure
Messages: 1030
Registered: March 2012
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On Mar 1, 6:53 pm, "Joe Forster/STA" <s...@c64.org> wrote:
>> Can data be retrieved when disks are exposed to magnetic fields like
>> those used iat airport security gates?
>
> Kürt Ltd. in Hungary (http://www.kurt.hu, also has English pages) is
> a world-wide known data rescue company. They can restore data from
> much more damaged stuff, they're just not cheap at all (e.g. about 100
> Euros per floppy disk).
That's about the cost of the restoration of the cut up disks. The
reason why I thought exposure to magnetic fields would have been
better for the murderer isbe there was a subplot line in the Randy
Quaide movie THE BIG EASY where evidence on a VHS tape was destroyed
by a STRONG magnet.
It seems to me that newer optical data on CDs and DVDs are more
susceptible to destruction by pinkig shears. Maybe a lighter would
also work on CDs/DVDs as well as on 5.25s as well.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198949 is a reply to message #198946] |
Mon, 02 March 2009 07:17 |
Joe Forster/STA
Messages: 371
Registered: March 2013
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> The
> reason why I thought exposure to magnetic fields would have been
> better for the murderer isbe there was a subplot line in the Randy
> Quaide movie THE BIG EASY where evidence on a VHS tape was destroyed
> by a STRONG magnet.
1. Don't believe in what movies say (especially if they're from the
USA).
2. "Destroyed" is a bit too strong in this context, perhaps,
"weakened" or "unrestorable for the average person" would be more
appropriate. _I_ can restore data from a _logically_ "destroyed" hard
disk, e.g. when a friend or colleague of mine manages to get a virus
onto it or the system goes haywire and overwrites some system area
(MBR, boot sector, FAT, MFT, root directory etc.). But professional
companies like Kürt Ltd. can go much beyond that: they can restore
data from _physically_ "destroyed hard disks", e.g. when the R/W head
gets loose or rips off and scratches all over the disk or "just" the
electronics blow up.
> It seems to me that newer optical data on CDs and DVDs are more
> susceptible to destruction by pinkig shears. Maybe a lighter would
> also work on CDs/DVDs as well as on 5.25s as well.
Oh, definitely: you need to completely destroy the media to be safe
against the restoration of its contents! Once I read that the British
government or army gets rid of hard disks by wiping the data multiple
times with some software, then smashing the wretched things into metal
dust and then pouring the dust into strong acid.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198953 is a reply to message #198949] |
Mon, 02 March 2009 10:12 |
Payton Byrd
Messages: 1198
Registered: December 2011
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> Once I read that the British
> government or army gets rid of hard disks by wiping the data multiple
> times with some software, then smashing the wretched things into metal
> dust and then pouring the dust into strong acid.
That'll teach those traitorous hard drives!
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198958 is a reply to message #198949] |
Mon, 02 March 2009 15:31 |
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Originally posted by: adric22
> Oh, definitely: you need to completely destroy the media to be safe
> against the restoration of its contents! Once I read that the British
> government or army gets rid of hard disks by wiping the data multiple
> times with some software, then smashing the wretched things into metal
> dust and then pouring the dust into strong acid.
We do something almost as bad at the company i work for. We upgrade 1
or 2 servers per year, typically. The old servers are usually 5 to 7
years old or so. These older ones used SCSI RAID arrays with 4.3 or
9.1 GB SCSI hard drives. The drives are essentially worthless in
today's world. So the boss tells me to take them out to the shop and
have the workers cut them in half or torch them, whichever is more
convenient at the time. When I'm throwing those cut in half hard
drives in the trash I'm usually pretty confident that nobody would
ever read the data. It never occurred to me I might need to grind
them into dust and pour them into acid too.. Wouldn't it actually
be cheaper just to melt them down? Or throw them into the lava of an
active volcano or something?
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198960 is a reply to message #198949] |
Mon, 02 March 2009 17:06 |
Wolfgang Moser
Messages: 632
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Hi Joe,
Joe Forster/STA schrieb:
>
> 2. "Destroyed" is a bit too strong in this context, perhaps,
> "weakened" or "unrestorable for the average person" would be more
> appropriate. _I_ can restore data from a _logically_ "destroyed" hard
> disk, e.g. when a friend or colleague of mine manages to get a virus
> onto it or the system goes haywire and overwrites some system area
> (MBR, boot sector, FAT, MFT, root directory etc.). But professional
> companies like Kürt Ltd. can go much beyond that: they can restore
> data from _physically_ "destroyed hard disks", e.g. when the R/W head
> gets loose or rips off and scratches all over the disk or "just" the
> electronics blow up.
maybe you should have a read in this paper (only the
abstract is publically available for free):
http://www.springerlink.com/content/408263ql11460147/fulltex t.pdf?page=1
For modern harddisk ranging from 1GB to 2TB in size,
even people with access to bleeding edge magnetic
force microscopes aren't able to reliably reconstruct
more than just some bits, when the whole disk was
overwritten with zeroes for only one time.
It seems that the old Gutmann paper was valid for
floppy disks and old (MFM) harddisks only.
Womo
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198962 is a reply to message #198960] |
Mon, 02 March 2009 21:45 |
Payton Byrd
Messages: 1198
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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> http://www.springerlink.com/content/408263ql11460147/fulltex t.pdf?page=1
>
> For modern harddisk ranging from 1GB to 2TB in size,
> even people with access to bleeding edge magnetic
> force microscopes aren't able to reliably reconstruct
> more than just some bits, when the whole disk was
> overwritten with zeroes for only one time.
>
> It seems that the old Gutmann paper was valid for
> floppy disks and old (MFM) harddisks only.
>
> Womo
Oh, yeah. Just leave us the abstract. We should "trust" the
abstract. Yeah, and it just happens to come from government forensic
folks. Theeey don't have any reason to misinform the people. No,
siree, Bob! If they say it's good enough to just do one pass, then by
golly one pass is all you need, sir! Those boys at NSA are just goofs
and would never have access to a time machine to go back and read your
hard drive before you "erased" your data.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198963 is a reply to message #198938] |
Mon, 02 March 2009 23:44 |
Rick Youngman
Messages: 549
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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On Mar 1, 9:33 am, rusure <r_u_s...@mybluelight.com> wrote:
> I saw this on cable. Some guy wrote critical evidence in his wife's
> murder on 5.25 disks. Couldn't have been a Commodore hauncho, must
## snip ##
Even if it was possible to recover parts, doubtfull it would hold up
in court.
But, destroying a flopie, a CD, or a hard drives platters is fairly
easy.
Physically, a belt sander or grinding stone works well
But here is tip, that many don't think about, when destroying software
or CUTTING UP OLD CREDIT CARDS !!
Never -- ever --- throw the pieces in the SAME waste container !!! at
the same time !!!.... wait at least two garbage pickups before you
dispose of the second half of the pieces.
But lets get real...... if someone is dumpster diving... that won't
make a difference..... so .... after you cut up credit cards,
floppies, or CD's... toss 1/2 of the peices away at home, and take the
other 1/2 and toss them in a dumpster at a public place like a park
( or work) or anywhere , far away from the 1/2 you tossed at home.
No one will ever match up pieces at the landfill
floppies, and anything plastic like a CD, are easy to destroy...
platters on a hard disk take more effort, but aluminum, has a low
melting temperature
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198965 is a reply to message #198949] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 00:55 |
dowcom
Messages: 773
Registered: July 2003
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Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Mon, Mar 2, 2009, 4:17am (CST-2) From:
sta@c64.org (Joe Forster/STA)
script:
>
Once I read that the British government
> or army gets rid of hard disks by wiping
> the data multiple times with some
> software, then smashing the wretched
> things into metal dust and then pouring
> the dust into strong acid.
When it comes to security, the military likes to use 2 or 3 methods,
any one of which should suffice in ordinary circumstances. This is to
offset the 'F-U' factor, wherein the soldier forgets to perform one
procedure correctly.
So, we have: "The right way, the wrong way, and the (military) way."
((-;
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
The fact that 'conventional wisdom' is indeed 'conventional',
does not, in any way, imply that it is wise.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198971 is a reply to message #198953] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 01:00 |
dowcom
Messages: 773
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Mon, Mar 2, 2009, 7:12am (CST-2) From:
plbyrd@gmail.com (Payton Byrd)
script:
>> smashing the wretched things into
>> metal dust and then pouring the
>> dust into strong acid.
>
> That'll teach those traitorous hard drives!
Without the acid, [somebody] might put the dust under their pillow, and
reconstruct the data 'in their dreams'. ((-;
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
The fact that 'conventional wisdom' is indeed 'conventional',
does not, in any way, imply that it is wise.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198973 is a reply to message #198963] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 01:13 |
dowcom
Messages: 773
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Mon, Mar 2, 2009, 8:44pm (CST-2) From:
wlbbs@commspeed.net (Rick Youngman)
script:
> Even if it was possible to recover parts,
> doubtfull it would hold up in court.
But it did. It _was_ a (US) military court, so was easier, maybe. Yes,
true story.
One government agency wanted a million bucks and a year to do the job.
AFCIS did it in a month, or less, for $100. (Which included the cost of
the first FDD that got broken.)
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
The fact that 'conventional wisdom' is indeed 'conventional',
does not, in any way, imply that it is wise.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198977 is a reply to message #198973] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 08:04 |
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Originally posted by: adric22
Actually, the reason we destroy the drives is a combination of two
issues:
1) they are old and worthless.
2) It is easier than writing zeros to the drives.
But I might add that sometimes it is fun.. But we never do it
because we're afraid that writing zeros isn't good enough.
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198978 is a reply to message #198958] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 08:13 |
Clocky
Messages: 1212
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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adric22 wrote:
>> Oh, definitely: you need to completely destroy the media to be safe
>> against the restoration of its contents! Once I read that the British
>> government or army gets rid of hard disks by wiping the data multiple
>> times with some software, then smashing the wretched things into
>> metal dust and then pouring the dust into strong acid.
>
> We do something almost as bad at the company i work for. We upgrade 1
> or 2 servers per year, typically. The old servers are usually 5 to 7
> years old or so. These older ones used SCSI RAID arrays with 4.3 or
> 9.1 GB SCSI hard drives. The drives are essentially worthless in
> today's world. So the boss tells me to take them out to the shop and
> have the workers cut them in half or torch them, whichever is more
> convenient at the time. When I'm throwing those cut in half hard
> drives in the trash I'm usually pretty confident that nobody would
> ever read the data. It never occurred to me I might need to grind
> them into dust and pour them into acid too.. Wouldn't it actually
> be cheaper just to melt them down? Or throw them into the lava of an
> active volcano or something?
Don't believe everything that you read about British governments and armed
forces would be my suggestion ;-)
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198982 is a reply to message #198958] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 12:39 |
Joe Forster/STA
Messages: 371
Registered: March 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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> Wouldn't it actually
> be cheaper just to melt them down? Or throw them into the lava of an
> active volcano or something?
It worked for The One Ring so it should work damn well for anything
else, too, shouldn't it? ;-)
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198984 is a reply to message #198962] |
Tue, 03 March 2009 15:59 |
Wolfgang Moser
Messages: 632
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi,
> Oh, yeah. Just leave us the abstract. We should "trust" the
> abstract. Yeah, and it just happens to come from government forensic
> folks. Theeey don't have any reason to misinform the people. No,
> siree, Bob! If they say it's good enough to just do one pass, then by
> golly one pass is all you need, sir! Those boys at NSA are just goofs
> and would never have access to a time machine to go back and read your
> hard drive before you "erased" your data.
Sure Payton, find an extended abstract here:
http://sansforensics.wordpress.com/2009/01/15/overwriting-ha rd-drive-data/
Womo
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198993 is a reply to message #198971] |
Wed, 04 March 2009 14:15 |
Payton Byrd
Messages: 1198
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Mar 3, 12:00 am, dow...@webtv.net (bud) wrote:
> Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Mon, Mar 2, 2009, 7:12am (CST-2) From:
> plb...@gmail.com (Payton Byrd)
>
> script:
>
>>> smashing the wretched things into
>>> metal dust and then pouring the
>>> dust into strong acid.
>
>> That'll teach those traitorous hard drives!
>
> Without the acid, [somebody] might put the dust under their pillow, and
> reconstruct the data 'in their dreams'. ((-;
And if you get that then you've been reading this newsgroup for way
too long. :)
BTW, has anyone heard from Mr. Panks lately?
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #198996 is a reply to message #198993] |
Thu, 05 March 2009 02:13 |
Marc 'BlackJack' Rint
Messages: 115
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 04 Mar 2009 11:15:16 -0800, Payton Byrd wrote:
> On Mar 3, 12:00 am, dow...@webtv.net (bud) wrote:
>> Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Mon, Mar 2, 2009, 7:12am (CST-2) From:
>> plb...@gmail.com (Payton Byrd)
>>
>> script:
>>
>>>> smashing the wretched things into
>>>> metal dust and then pouring the
>>>> dust into strong acid.
>>
>>> That'll teach those traitorous hard drives!
>>
>> Without the acid, [somebody] might put the dust under their pillow, and
>> reconstruct the data 'in their dreams'. ((-;
>
> And if you get that then you've been reading this newsgroup for way too
> long. :)
>
> BTW, has anyone heard from Mr. Panks lately?
Maybe he slept over some hard disk metal dust and now one of those
agencies is holding him for questioning. ;-)
Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #199038 is a reply to message #198958] |
Sun, 08 March 2009 21:15 |
Sam Gillett
Messages: 2422
Registered: June 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"adric22" <adric22@yahoo.com> wrote ...
> When I'm throwing those cut in half hard
> drives in the trash I'm usually pretty confident that nobody would
> ever read the data. It never occurred to me I might need to grind
> them into dust and pour them into acid too.. Wouldn't it actually
> be cheaper just to melt them down? Or throw them into the lava of an
> active volcano or something?
Throwing any drive into a volcano that is not a virgin drive is asking for
very bad trouble. You could be cursed for years to come. Not only will your
data be stolen, but your Windows will crash and your Java will vaporize.
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
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| Re: rescuing cut up 5.25 disks [message #199045 is a reply to message #199038] |
Mon, 09 March 2009 00:46 |
dowcom
Messages: 773
Registered: July 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Group: comp.sys.cbm Date: Mon, Mar 9, 2009, 1:15am (CDT+5) From:
sgillettnospam@diespammergte.net (Sam Gillett)
script:
> Throwing any drive into a volcano
> that is not a virgin drive is asking
> for very bad trouble. You could be
> cursed for years to come. Not only
> will your data be stolen, but your
> Windows will crash and your Java
> will vaporize.
Too true. Volcanos only accept Virgins. Be very, _very_, careful!
Don't be fooled by a drive that has been wiped. The volcano won't be!
salaam,
dowcom
To e-mail me, add the character zero to "dowcom". i.e.:
dowcom(zero)(at)webtv(dot)net.
The fact that 'conventional wisdom' is indeed 'conventional',
does not, in any way, imply that it is wise.
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