| appple 2 wiki ? [message #183504] |
Sun, 17 November 2013 15:49  |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
I have been starting to look around, and it looks as if all the interesting information about the Apple 2 is dispersed on a lot of dedicated web servers, none of which i found to have particularily easy or encouraging methods to add content for outside contributors.
Is this not a risk for long term proliferation of apple 2 knowledge/documentation ? There already are a lot of places that go stale and dropp off the Internet when the domains are not being paid for. How old are the folks that own some of those really nice web pages ? Are they starting to get into an age where they should worry about an exit strategy that would have their output survive their active engagement better ?
Just wondering.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #183506 is a reply to message #183505] |
Sun, 17 November 2013 16:35  |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
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"Antoine Vignau" <antoine.vignau@laposte.net> wrote:
> Dreaming of a lemon6502 site...
Never trust anyone under 60... especially if they spell apple with three P's
in the subject line of their messages.
Seriously, the whole world is the same. There is no single source for
everything except the Internet itself. Newbs and their notions can come and
go, and so can I, but the Apple II is Forever.
Understanding freedom, like understanding the Apple II, is a lifelong quest.
Apparently...
History cannot be erased.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #183507 is a reply to message #183506] |
Sun, 17 November 2013 17:32 |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 1:35:26 PM UTC-8, Bill Buckels wrote:
> Never trust anyone under 60... especially if they spell apple with three P's
> in the subject line of their messages.
Indeed. Once i turn 60 i promise to produce fewer typos ;-)
> Seriously, the whole world is the same. There is no single source for
> everything except the Internet itself.Newbs and their notions can come and
> go, and so can I
I just think that there is a lot of great information that would be easier to access, maintain and improve if it was put into a shared wiki. Like Asimov for the data.
> Understanding freedom, like understanding the Apple II, is a lifelong quest.
> Apparently...
Indeed.
> History cannot be erased.
But easily forgotten without a good effort to record it.
> but the Apple II is Forever.
Make it so ;-)
Toerless
>
>
>
> Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #183622 is a reply to message #183507] |
Sun, 17 November 2013 19:27 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
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<toerless.eckert@gmail.com> wrote:
> Make it so ;-)
You don't get to be Picard... but I'm doing my best to preserve what I have
learned. And many others here are doing so as well.
Perhaps in time you will too. It wasn't for ourselves alone that we invented
the Internet.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #183847 is a reply to message #183622] |
Sun, 17 November 2013 22:39 |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
On Sunday, November 17, 2013 4:27:06 PM UTC-8, Bill Buckels wrote:
> You don't get to be Picard... but I'm doing my best to preserve what I have
> learned. And many others here are doing so as well.
Having searched through google and seeing a lot of dead links, i just wonder how much may have already been lost by folks that had their own web pages which then went dead.
> Perhaps in time you will too. It wasn't for ourselves alone that we invented
> the Internet.
Well, having been inventing and using the Internet since the end of the eighties and experiencing the changes it has undergone since then, sometimes i wish we had. But as you said: Understanding freedom is a lifelong quest. Quite interesting to watch how pervasive passive monitoring meets generation facebook now. Oh well, i digress.
Toerless
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184078 is a reply to message #183847] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 03:42 |
Michael J. Mahon
Messages: 1767
Registered: October 2012
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<toerless.eckert@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, November 17, 2013 4:27:06 PM UTC-8, Bill Buckels wrote:
>> You don't get to be Picard... but I'm doing my best to preserve what I have
>> learned. And many others here are doing so as well.
>
> Having searched through google and seeing a lot of dead links, i just
> wonder how much may have already been lost by folks that had their own
> web pages which then went dead.
You make a good point.
The Apple II community has no "repository" that is fail-safe against
someone being hit by a bus.
This would be good to remedy, though it may require some structure...and
some money.
Or perhaps it can be done with distributed control, like the internet
itself. ;-) Perhaps as a "web" of mutually synced mirrored sites, with
alternate sites becoming "visible" only when a primary becomes unreachable
for x days.
Of course, for it to work, maintenance would have to be script-based and
automatic...
--
-michael - NadaNet 3.1 and AppleCrate II: http://home.comcast.net/~mjmahon
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184417 is a reply to message #183504] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 09:54 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
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<toerless.eckert@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been starting to look around...
Look around here if it's a wiki you want:
http://apple2info.net
My long-time experience with websites disappearing and broken-links
generally hasn't much to do with my death (the rumours have been greatly
exagerrated) or my occasional (now ubiquituous) hiatus from the Internet.
It has had more to do with ISP's going out of business (getting gobbled-up
by other ISP's, or vanishing altogether), or by my own need to change
service providers and therefore losing "free" websites thrown-in with the
previous ISP package. This occurred more in the early to mid-90's when we
moved from dial-up to cable modems and DSL.
I learned early that the offers of "free" webspace do not guarantee future
availability. The decline and fall of tripod-like services is now itself a
matter of computing history.
When I moved from the University System to my first (dial-up) ISP and
subsequently dismantled my BBS, initially apache web service with cgi
support, server-side includes and shell accounts were available (and the
norm) and came with user accounts along with news service. But around Y2K
things had changed and shell accounts were something you needed to do on
your own server. Gradually people used the Internet less and their browsers
more.
Netscrape followed Mosaic and IE, and others had joined the fray.
User packages deteriorated to their present state and now people use their
telephones instead of their computers to access the web (like Dick Tracy's
wrist-radio) and don't use the Internet much, but they use what they use
often. We don't need to turn images-off anymore to speed-up browsing (to say
the least).
My own solution to preserve my pervasive online presense has been to
contract with a large ISP and to purchase my own many domains and webspace.
Perhaps I shall include post-humunguous continuance of my online presense in
my last will and testament, with the appropriately required bequest of
funds.
But like others, my focus is to preserve the information that I place and
share online by engaging communities which in turn broadcast through search
engines. I also contribute to Wikipedia. Like any history, some will be lost
because on-exit people move-on with their lives (and to new neighborhoods)
and don't necessarily share the same interests.
Grandma's treasured table-cloth ends-up in a thrift shop or is stripped into
rags for wiping-up paint spills and wiping-off dipsticks.
The good is oft interred with their bones.
Since the online demographic and social media and so forth is constantly
devolving, the best continuance is to continuously evolve and to re-invent
web archives for the user access of the day, targeted at the youngest common
denominator. In a smaller world one was bigger and needed to know more. When
we are younger we know everything. Later we know more and don't know
anything.
But I think websites will persist for the near future, and since I don't
have crystal balls and can't see around corners, the road ahead of me and
others like me (if there are others like me who still remain) can only be
paved with good intentions.
Distributed redundant information has worked so far though. I think the real
problem is being comfortable with fuzzy virtual archives that use servers
like google for an interface to access distributed data over websites, using
html as an interface.
Our field of dreams seems to have become a reality... we built-it and they
came. What more could an old techie want?
I acknowledge of course that P.J. Plauger once indicated to us that we
should continue to polish our code; a methodology and best-practice that can
be applied outside of C Language Programming into every interface we build.
But I think we need to balance our tweaking and our "feature-creep" with
proper requirements analysis and I would put it to you then (all kidding
aside now):
With all of the Apple II Information so complete and still being actively
accessed and continuously added to, and with many of us actively maintaining
our sites, developing for the Apple II, and making copies of each others
contributions, should we worry about an exit strategy. Apple II history is
not over; we are in-it, despite the ashes we have already scattered.
And DOS 3.3 and ProDOS haven't died yet. I've always had them here along
with MS-DOS and my Commodore 64. The Vic20 is in the box right now. Unix
never died either... Linus saw to that! Windows versions abound at my house,
and the G4 sits with the iMac and the eMac, by the GS and the //e. It's a
great big world and I am sure I have been assimilated like my fellow borg.
But of course, do something yourself, although it would be a shame if you
started something with high hopes and then abandoned it like so many of us
have. But in real-life as in cyberspace people and personnas are always
coming and going because at the end of the day the bills and the piper must
be paid.
I was going to ask you if you are an undertaker in real-life, but I have
been cheeky enough already:) Everyday is Judgement Day for a computer
historian; I understand that completely.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184418 is a reply to message #184078] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 10:18 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
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"Michael J. Mahon" <mjmahon@aol.com> wrote:
> You make a good point.
Several sincere points it seems.
> The Apple II community has no "repository" that is fail-safe against
> someone being hit by a bus.
If google went down csa2 would not vanish. I was at a real-life conference
recently with Water Management and Environmental Mangement colleagues and
our guest speaker (from the UN)pointed-out that with Climate Change we have
no historical predictive model for disaster recovery. This is like the
Internet.
Our speaker also indicated that with the severity of ever larger scale
disasters, governments and people need to adjust expectations to rebuild
functionally and not to necessarily replace what they have lost. Life is
like that.
> maintenance would have to be script-based and automatic...
Like any good programmer you have jumped to the implementation from the
design phase, Michael. But I am still at the requirements analysis, and I am
not convinced that we have a requirement, or rather a reuirement that has
not already been implictly fulfilled.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184419 is a reply to message #183504] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 10:19 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
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On Sun, 17 Nov 2013, toerless.eckert@gmail.com wrote:
> I have been starting to look around, and it looks as if all the
> interesting information about the Apple 2 is dispersed on a lot of
> dedicated web servers, none of which i found to have particularily easy
> or encouraging methods to add content for outside contributors.
>
> Is this not a risk for long term proliferation of apple 2
> knowledge/documentation ? There already are a lot of places that go
> stale and dropp off the Internet when the domains are not being paid
> for. How old are the folks that own some of those really nice web pages
> ? Are they starting to get into an age where they should worry about an
> exit strategy that would have their output survive their active
> engagement better ?
>
> Just wondering.
>
And what happens when the wiki drops off the internet, becuase someone
hasn't paid the bill?
The reality has always been that you are your own archive. I've gone to
used book sales since I was 16 years old, and I buy books often "just in
case", because it migh be something I'd be interested in in the future or
I can't count on a copy when it might be useful. I keep buying reference
books, despite "the web", a long ago need to be self sufficient. The
internet changes that, but I don't go along with it completely.
I save less nowadays, but circa 1996 when I first go full internet access,
I tended to save a lot, because I worried about maybe I'd not have
internet access in the future, or unsure of the reliability of it all. My
saving things locally doesn't make it available to all, but the funny
thing is, my saving it locally is a form of a decentralized back up. Not
complete, but it's there.
The computer magazines that are now online, that's because someone didn't
throw the magazines out when "he was supposed to". 15 years ago, there'd
be plenty of questions I could answer in various newsgroups because I kept
a large library of books about electronics. That was before so much was
online, or people had lost interest. I still have those books, people ask
less, maybe because more of it's online, maybe because it's too dated for
a lot of people now. We have seen a shift, where it used to be people
interacting, "how do I do this?" and "you get this and do that with it..."
to "check the web", an insistence that the information is online and
people should be looking there first. That beats typing in long
paragraphs, but I'm not sure it's a good change for the better. It's
about "authorized information" rather than "some guy" helping someone
else.
People who have knowledge share it, either by answering questions or
writing articles about it.
Wikis lower the bar. Anyone can participate, but most can only do so by
simply compying from somewhere else. They lack the larger background to
be critical, to compare two bits of information and wonder why they
differ, and "which one is right?" The notion is completely dependent on
others actually doing the work, writing the original articles that get
referenced. The original articles are way more important.
Michael
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184549 is a reply to message #183504] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 12:14 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
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toerless.eckert wrote:
>
> information about the Apple 2 is dispersed on a lot of dedicated web
> servers, none of which i found to have particularily easy or encouraging
> methods to add content for outside contributors.
Upload a .txt file with interesting Apple II information to the FTP asimov
site, and that will get it copied around to the various Asimov mirrors.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184707 is a reply to message #184549] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 15:06 |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
On Monday, November 18, 2013 9:14:47 AM UTC-8, D Finnigan wrote:
> Upload a .txt file with interesting Apple II information to the FTP asimov
> site, and that will get it copied around to the various Asimov mirrors.
Well.. asimov does not have a lot of mirrors due to its size and its badly searchable and readable.
IMHO:
ftp is ideal as data storage, but fairly bad for metadata.
web pages are best when you must do some unique interaction. Virtual apple 2 is a great example. But pretty much anything that ftp or wiki are not good enough for is best done with a web page.
wiki IMHO is ideal just to create static information pages about stuff. The big benefit over web pages is that it creates less scatter&gather storage, therefore easier mirroring than lots of web-pages, consistent user-experience, and through the aggregation also makes it easier to spot and avoid duplication and inconsistencies in documentation. And allows it easier for folks to contribute (who is willing and able to create another web page and try to go around promoting it on other wewb pages so its found). Sure, web rings.. They're all fairly partial too).
Sorry, didn't want to sound preachy. I know how much pain a wiki is as well compared to owning a web page and being able to do everything there as you like. I wouldn't have brought this up if it wasn't for the greater good of remembering "the apple 2 is forever" ;-))
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184838 is a reply to message #184707] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 16:00 |
Victor Appleton
Messages: 3
Registered: May 2013
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toerless.eckert wrote:
> On Monday, November 18, 2013 9:14:47 AM UTC-8, D Finnigan wrote:
>> Upload a .txt file with interesting Apple II information to the FTP
>> asimov
>> site, and that will get it copied around to the various Asimov mirrors.
>
> Well.. asimov does not have a lot of mirrors due to its size
Oh no? This is just a suspicion, but I suspect that there are many copies of
Asimov all around the world. Not all of them are on the public Internet,
though.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184839 is a reply to message #184707] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 16:18 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
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toerless.eckert wrote:
> On Monday, November 18, 2013 9:14:47 AM UTC-8, D Finnigan wrote:
>> Upload a .txt file with interesting Apple II information to the FTP
>> asimov
>> site, and that will get it copied around to the various Asimov mirrors.
>
> Well.. asimov does not have a lot of mirrors due to its size and its badly
> searchable and readable.
>
> IMHO:
> ftp is ideal as data storage, but fairly bad for metadata.
>
> web pages are best when you must do some unique interaction. Virtual
> apple 2 is a great example. But pretty much anything that ftp or wiki
> are
> not good enough for is best done with a web page.
>
> wiki IMHO is ideal just to create static information pages about stuff.
> The big benefit over web pages is that it creates less scatter&gather
> storage, therefore easier mirroring than lots of web-pages, consistent
> user-experience, and through the aggregation also makes it easier to
> spot and avoid duplication and inconsistencies in documentation. And
> allows it easier for folks to contribute (who is willing and able to
> create another web page and try to go around promoting it on other wewb
> pages so its found). Sure, web rings.. They're all fairly partial too).
>
> Sorry, didn't want to sound preachy. I know how much pain a wiki is as
> well
> compared to owning a web page and being able to do everything there as you
> like. I wouldn't have brought this up if it wasn't for the greater good of
> remembering "the apple 2 is forever" ;-))
>
That's a good point about Asimov's size. Those PDFs are huuuuge! But
excepting one's own Apple site IMO it's the best way to get files out
quickly and to a lot of people.
One of the many, many flaws of Mac GUI Vault is that I don't have the
infrastructure in place to do real-time updates, so I compromise by making
huge batch updates about twice a year. It's on my to-do list. Someday I'll
write the code for accepting anyone's files and having them live on-site
within seconds.
Back to Asimov, If you ignore the documentation folder, the images/ isn't
actually too big so mirroring it for public or private use isn't so bad.
--
]DF$
Apple II Book: http://macgui.com/newa2guide/
Usenet: http://macgui.com/usenet/ <-- get posts by email!
Apple II Web & Blog hosting: http://a2hq.com/
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184840 is a reply to message #183504] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 16:18 |
Nathan Griffith
Messages: 14
Registered: July 2013
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So, let's summarize:
Apple2 has members who a.) actively criticize attempts to wiki-ize and centralize information, and b.) tolerate a paywall on important (30 year old!) documents and software. By the standards of a contemporary software hobbyist it's difficult not to interpret this as a somewhat blighted community.
You say that the existing infrastructure is enough, and as someone who recently completed a complicated Apple 2 project I'm here to tell you: You're right... but juuuuuuust barely. In reality correlating many disparate documents from MANY different servers was an agonizing process that often left me struggling to remember the trail of breadcrumbs that lead me to a particular piece of information. Getting the correct education was possible, but I had to fight for every inch of the know-how I needed to complete my animation project.
Now, for some brain-damaged individuals like myself (and many of you fine folks), this is all part of the fun. But if you want to lower the barrier to entry and grow the hobby (more crucial now than ever) -- centralization of knowledge is critically important. People like to see somewhere obvious to start.
In short: Make a dang wiki! I will gladly contribute some 6502 tutorials and HiRes know-how.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184841 is a reply to message #184840] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 16:33 |
D Finnigan
Messages: 1154
Registered: October 2012
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nategri wrote:
> So, let's summarize:
>
> Apple2 has members who a.) actively criticize attempts to wiki-ize and
> centralize information, and b.) tolerate a paywall on important (30 year
> old!) documents and software.
Are we all entitled to have whatever we want for free?
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184843 is a reply to message #184838] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 17:28 |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:00:50 PM UTC-8, Tom Appleton wrote:
> Oh no? This is just a suspicion, but I suspect that there are many copies of
> Asimov all around the world. Not all of them are on the public Internet,
> though.
Definitely. I meant to say "public".
Btw: I still have a tar.gz of asimov from April 1997. Is that obsolete by now or where there actually challenges of removal of content in the meantime ? (yeah, i'll do a diff myself one time, but asking is easier ;-)
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184844 is a reply to message #184840] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 17:47 |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
On Monday, November 18, 2013 1:18:36 PM UTC-8, nategri wrote:
> Apple2 has members who a.) actively criticize attempts to wiki-ize and centralize information.
Really ? I may be missing context, but so far i only saw indifference to the idea. If eg: Somebody copied the content of folks who shown indifference over to a Wiki, do you think they would mind ?
> and b.) tolerate a paywall on important (30 year old!) documents and software.
Haven't seen that either. Whats an example paywall we have today (any specific web you're thinking off ?)
> By the standards of a contemporary software hobbyist it's difficult not to interpret this as a somewhat blighted community.
In defense of this community: My experience with other communities has been much worse. Eg: Trying to figure out how to root an android phone is an exercise in triangulating hundreds of pages long forum threads in potential multiple forums. But i bet they are young and don't know better, and bringing order to chaos doesn't matter if you're not planning for eternity but if everything you do is obsolete in 18 months ;-)
> Now, for some brain-damaged individuals like myself (and many of you fine folks), this is all part of the fun. But if you want to lower the barrier to entry and grow the hobby (more crucial now than ever) -- centralization of knowledge is critically important. People like to see somewhere obvious to start.
It was definitely an very interesting adventure to navigate in the last week. And if folks don't like wiki, how about a ZIL implementation:
You are on memory lane. You see a doctors house on the left and a strange building to your right. In the distance ahead you can see lot more strange houses.
> Right
You are in front of what looks like an Aztec ruin. There is a jacuzzi in front of the house.
etc. pp ;-))
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #184973 is a reply to message #184841] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 19:01 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
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"D Finnigan" <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote:
> Are we all entitled to have whatever we want for free?
I once thought so...
http://www.semantikon.com/StealThisBookbyAbbieHoffman.pdf
But after puberty and by the time started developing software I was prepared
to buy licenced copies of compilers and developers kits and to join
developer associations which included MSDN and APDA.
Subscription costs have come down considerably since the days of CompuServe
Book Clubs helped me fill my shelves and I looked forward to new books from
the Waite Group and others like them every month. I couldn't afford much
beer, and the kids wore clean hand-me-downs but I paid for and eagerly
awaited my monthly disks from Shareware Libraries.
One company that I worked for back then billed me at $200 per hour. Today
almost 3 decades later I had a recent offer of $75.00 per hour which I
dismissed.
I have absolutely no problem in my adult life both today and yesterday, both
paying for those things that have value to me and refusing to sell myself
short. I also value the work of others.
Hobbies cost money too. Retro-computing is still a hell of a lot
less-expensive than drinking oneself into a stupor on the golf course every
evening.
Check-out the link David. Your comment made me smile, so I thought I'd
better return the favour. I think some kids grow-up a little slower, but
kids are kids until they grow-up.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #185242 is a reply to message #184841] |
Mon, 18 November 2013 23:28 |
Nathan Griffith
Messages: 14
Registered: July 2013
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Junior Member |
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D Finnigan wrote:
> Are we all entitled to have whatever we want for free?
If that's the case I'm making, it's news to me :)
My point is simple: This hobby is due for a major existential crisis, and in light of this, maintaining -any- barriers to the tools of creation is downright pathological. It would be bad news for any creative community, and it's doubly so for this small and dwindling one.
I've put my not-money where my mouth is here. I could have charged for the Apple ][ Vidplayer. And I probably would have made a little money. But it would be bad for the community, and it'd be bad for me, so up on the github it stays. I'll spare everyone the obvious lessons from recent history, but it's safe to say that this variety of altruism /works/.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #185370 is a reply to message #184839] |
Tue, 19 November 2013 00:40 |
Bill Garber
Messages: 507
Registered: December 2011
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"D Finnigan" <dog_cow@macgui.com> wrote in message
news:dog_cow-1384809482@macgui.com...
> toerless.eckert wrote:
>> On Monday, November 18, 2013 9:14:47 AM UTC-8, D Finnigan wrote:
>>> Upload a .txt file with interesting Apple II information to the FTP
>>> asimov
>>> site, and that will get it copied around to the various Asimov mirrors.
>>
>> Well.. asimov does not have a lot of mirrors due to its size and its
>> badly
>> searchable and readable.
>>
>> IMHO:
>> ftp is ideal as data storage, but fairly bad for metadata.
>>
>> web pages are best when you must do some unique interaction. Virtual
>> apple 2 is a great example. But pretty much anything that ftp or wiki
>> are
>> not good enough for is best done with a web page.
>>
>> wiki IMHO is ideal just to create static information pages about
>> stuff.
>> The big benefit over web pages is that it creates less scatter&gather
>> storage, therefore easier mirroring than lots of web-pages, consistent
>> user-experience, and through the aggregation also makes it easier to
>> spot and avoid duplication and inconsistencies in documentation. And
>> allows it easier for folks to contribute (who is willing and able to
>> create another web page and try to go around promoting it on other
>> wewb
>> pages so its found). Sure, web rings.. They're all fairly partial
>> too).
>>
>> Sorry, didn't want to sound preachy. I know how much pain a wiki is as
>> well
>> compared to owning a web page and being able to do everything there as
>> you
>> like. I wouldn't have brought this up if it wasn't for the greater good
>> of
>> remembering "the apple 2 is forever" ;-))
>>
>
> That's a good point about Asimov's size. Those PDFs are huuuuge! But
> excepting one's own Apple site IMO it's the best way to get files out
> quickly and to a lot of people.
>
> One of the many, many flaws of Mac GUI Vault is that I don't have the
> infrastructure in place to do real-time updates, so I compromise by making
> huge batch updates about twice a year. It's on my to-do list. Someday I'll
> write the code for accepting anyone's files and having them live on-site
> within seconds.
>
> Back to Asimov, If you ignore the documentation folder, the images/ isn't
> actually too big so mirroring it for public or private use isn't so bad.
>
> --
> ]DF$
> Apple II Book: http://macgui.com/newa2guide/
> Usenet: http://macgui.com/usenet/ <-- get posts by email!
> Apple II Web & Blog hosting: http://a2hq.com/
If it's legal, I will attempt a mirror of Asimov soon. I have some stuff to
catch up on before I can let my computer just sit and transfer all of it.
Bill Garber
http://www.sepa-electronics.com
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #186400 is a reply to message #184839] |
Tue, 19 November 2013 18:12 |
Christopher G. Mason
Messages: 156
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 11/18/2013 4:18 PM, D Finnigan wrote:
> That's a good point about Asimov's size. Those PDFs are huuuuge! But
> excepting one's own Apple site IMO it's the best way to get files out
> quickly and to a lot of people.
>
Pretty much all of those PDFs are now in The Internet Archive's Apple II
documentation collection.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #186401 is a reply to message #185242] |
Tue, 19 November 2013 18:30 |
Christopher G. Mason
Messages: 156
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 11/18/2013 11:28 PM, nategri wrote:
> D Finnigan wrote:
>> Are we all entitled to have whatever we want for free?
>
> If that's the case I'm making, it's news to me :)
>
> My point is simple: This hobby is due for a major existential crisis, and in light of this, maintaining -any- barriers to the tools of creation is downright pathological. It would be bad news for any creative community, and it's doubly so for this small and dwindling one.
>
> I've put my not-money where my mouth is here. I could have charged for the Apple ][ Vidplayer. And I probably would have made a little money. But it would be bad for the community, and it'd be bad for me, so up on the github it stays. I'll spare everyone the obvious lessons from recent history, but it's safe to say that this variety of altruism /works/.
>
This is very apparent with regards to Apple IIgs development. The tools
and documentation remain locked away for a price that makes no sense
given the demand. That and the one legal place left that is selling the
stuff is taking money and not shipping any products.
The developers of the ORCA line of products even throws them in a
section of his website called "The Morgue"!
<http://www.byteworks.us/Byte_Works/Morgue.html>
The fact is, hardly anyone going to be dropping $200+ on programming
tools and reference manuals for a 20+ year old dead platform. Meanwhile,
I can be programming on an Amiga or Atari ST series tonight with all the
documentation or compilers I need.
Heck even Microsoft knew this in the late-80s/early-90s. Nobody would
develop for IBM's OS/2 because they wanted $2000 or so for the SDK and
development tools. Microsoft practically gave away their stuff for a few
hundred dollars and still does to this day. (see Microsoft Dreamspark
and Academic Alliance, most everything is *free* if you attend a
participating institution)
Now you know why the platform receives very little attention compared to
the 8-bit Apple II and its contemporary platforms. The barrier of entry
is simply too high for a hobbyist.
For the TL:DR crowd: high cost of entry == no development on a platform
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #186402 is a reply to message #186401] |
Tue, 19 November 2013 19:38 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Tue, 19 Nov 2013, Christopher G. Mason wrote:
> This is very apparent with regards to Apple IIgs development. The tools and
> documentation remain locked away for a price that makes no sense given the
> demand. That and the one legal place left that is selling the stuff is taking
> money and not shipping any products.
>
> The developers of the ORCA line of products even throws them in a section of
> his website called "The Morgue"!
>
> <http://www.byteworks.us/Byte_Works/Morgue.html>
>
> The fact is, hardly anyone going to be dropping $200+ on programming tools
> and reference manuals for a 20+ year old dead platform. Meanwhile, I can be
> programming on an Amiga or Atari ST series tonight with all the documentation
> or compilers I need.
>
> Heck even Microsoft knew this in the late-80s/early-90s. Nobody would develop
> for IBM's OS/2 because they wanted $2000 or so for the SDK and development
> tools. Microsoft practically gave away their stuff for a few hundred dollars
> and still does to this day. (see Microsoft Dreamspark and Academic Alliance,
> most everything is *free* if you attend a participating institution)
>
> Now you know why the platform receives very little attention compared to the
> 8-bit Apple II and its contemporary platforms. The barrier of entry is simply
> too high for a hobbyist.
>
> For the TL:DR crowd: high cost of entry == no development on a platform
This is exactly I'm locked out of the GS.
That kind of money would set me back for a year - is it really worth it
for the GS? *The cost of entry is high enough to keep potential
developers away.* I *want* to work with the GS. I can't afford it.
-uso.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #187112 is a reply to message #186744] |
Wed, 20 November 2013 08:34 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<toerless.eckert@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ok, i am clueless. What GS software is still only available for $$$ ?
The compilers and developer kits including manuals to write software for the
GS are still sold as commercial products.
Specifically visit the following link:
http://store.16sector.com/
While these products are offered at what I think are very low prices, to
those who have no money at all to spend on this hobby and who have become
accustomed to paying nothing for the work of others this is apparently too
much to spend.
As I write this I reached across to one of my many bookshelves and opened
Mike Westerfield's excellent 382 page ORCA/C Manual, a well-written and
comprehensive guide to what I think is a beautiful product.
Try the link below:
http://store.16sector.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&a mp;cPath=1&products_id=203
ORCA/C is only one of the many developer tools available for the GS and it
is only $80.00
Considering the quality of these products and the work that Sheppy and now
Tony Diaz are doing to continue to make this and other products available, I
find it impossible to believe that anyone can argue that these types of
tools are beyond their means.
If so, the follwing link is recommended instead:
http://www.semantikon.com/StealThisBookbyAbbieHoffman.pdf
According to the US Department of Labour Statistics:
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
In 1991 when the ORCA/C manual that I have in my hand last went to print,
$80.00 in 2013 was worth $46.53 then. In 1991 if any serious GS developer on
the planet could have purchased the OPUS II package for $46.53 without
paying for shipping and for immediate delivery they would have been unlikely
to have not have done so.
As a long time shareware author who hardly received any money for his
shareware but spent countless hours supporting frivolous requests from
unregistered users, my take on these type of complaints is quite different.
Nothing that I have ever written in my lifetime comes close to products like
ORCA/C in terms of value or excellence.
I will leave it to others to reach their own conclusions about the
credibility of the words of those who complain about such things. I have my
own devils (we all do) so I am not about to condemn the frustration of one
guy.
But IMNSHO the price of GS development is well within the reach of most of
us.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #187114 is a reply to message #184419] |
Wed, 20 November 2013 09:18 |
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Originally posted by: toerless.eckert
On Monday, November 18, 2013 7:19:57 AM UTC-8, Michael Black wrote:
> And what happens when the wiki drops off the internet, becuase someone
> hasn't paid the bill?
From that perspective a wiki is just like any other web site. Either its built out highly redundant in ownership/servership or it just needs to get mirrored.
> The computer magazines that are now online, that's because someone didn't
> throw the magazines out when "he was supposed to". 15 years ago, there'd
> be plenty of questions I could answer in various newsgroups because I kept
> a large library of books about electronics.
I have seen quite a bit of information vanish from the Internet. For example there where communities hmm.. 10 years ago on hacking DVD players with maybe a few sites / forums at best for specific vendors back then. For one brand i checked recently, i couldn't find anything anymore, not even via google anymore.
> Wikis lower the bar. Anyone can participate, but most can only do so by
> simply copying from somewhere else. They lack the larger background to
> be critical, to compare two bits of information and wonder why they
> differ, and "which one is right?" The notion is completely dependent on
> others actually doing the work, writing the original articles that get
> referenced. The original articles are way more important.
You are confusing the possible benits/uses of the tool "wiki" with the content policy of sites like wikipedia.org. Wikipedia.org does not want what they call "original research". There are a lot of wikis out there that primarily include original research and are meant to do so.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #187269 is a reply to message #187114] |
Wed, 20 November 2013 11:02 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<toerless.eckert@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wikipedia.org does not want what they call "original research". There are a
> lot of wikis out there that primarily include original research and are
> meant to do so.
But some of those other Wikis exist for other purposes and may not be the
best place to put things (for many reasons):
http://www.aboutus.org/William_Buckels
As far as original research, that has not entirely been my experience with
Wikipedia. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibbing
More examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_compiler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec_C
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bridges_(software_developer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GRASP_(multimedia_authoring_software)
One original research contribution that I provided for Wikipedia (that
originally came from the help file that I wrote for my ClipShop program
http://www.clipshop.ca ) went viral... I assume because nobody citable had
ever bothered much with the topic...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSAVE_(graphics_image_format)
This original research's propagation across repositories ensures some
continuance of its information.
As I continued with a number of original research contributions to Wikipedia
I expanded more and more into providing rare but useful topics and I am
certain that others like me make similar efforts. For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PICtor_PIC_image_format
For that contribution I provided code examples that also seemed to go
somewhat viral across repositories:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example_Pictor_Decoder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Example_Pictor_Encoder
I am not against Wikis as you can see. But to me, they are just another
website except for Wikipedia, which I personally treasure. Of course not
everyone is citable, and an expert, and we need to rigidly control who we
accept information from to preserve our credibility as citable experts on
treasured sites like Wikipedia.
The Apple II community is a little more relaxed. But many of the fellows of
this community are not. I assume that could be one of the reasons why people
like Steven Weyhrich guard their work closely on their own websites. I've
had some very bone-headed junior programmers that worked for me change
entire programs that I wrote without changing the program name or comments
or copyright information. One learns that respect for the correctness of the
work of others is not guaranteed.
Changing the topic somewhat, I would also argue that "tunnel-vision" fails
to see enough scope about any particular problem domain to devise a solution
that works for anyone and everyone... when considering your idea, it is
really not a matter of "appetite" to emabark upon yet another attempt to
organize the internet in ones own image.
That's a good thing. One doesn't need to look far.... Look at David
Finnigan's monstrous and excellent contributions to the Apple II
Community...
http://www.macgui.com/
Of course I could go-on ad nauseum... far be-it for me to presume that I
have more than a passing understanding of the huge brain-trust that is the
Apple II community, leave-alone the ability to devise a plan to preserve
more than a partial snapshot in time of what amounts to a bunch of downloads
that are already on countless computers world-wide.
But of course I would contribute my work to such a thing anyway. FWIW
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #187429 is a reply to message #187112] |
Wed, 20 November 2013 14:06 |
Bill Buckels
Messages: 1418
Registered: November 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Bill Buckels" <bbuckels@mts.net> wrote:
> Specifically visit the following link:
> http://store.16sector.com/
I visited the above link and I attempted to login, but had forgot my
password. The website said it would email my password to me but never did.
I tried both of the emails that I use to make purchases online, but neither
worked, and I got the same lack of response form both of these.
At that point I was not comfortable with making the purchase of OPUS II from
this website.
I then phoned the phone number that is listed for this website in the whois
registery. I was told that Tony Diaz doesn't work there anymore and they
don't have a number where he can be reached.
So I don't know whether or not the OPUS II download is still available from
that link.
Bill
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #191565 is a reply to message #186402] |
Sat, 23 November 2013 20:20 |
Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 11/19/13 5:38 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> This is exactly I'm locked out of the GS.
All the docs you need can be had from archive.org. Just search for
Apple IIgs.
cc65 and asl can be used to cross-assemble 65816 code for the IIgs.
Both free.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #191566 is a reply to message #191565] |
Sat, 23 November 2013 20:33 |
Steve Nickolas
Messages: 2036
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Egan Ford wrote:
> On 11/19/13 5:38 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
>> This is exactly I'm locked out of the GS.
>
> All the docs you need can be had from archive.org. Just search for Apple
> IIgs.
>
> cc65 and asl can be used to cross-assemble 65816 code for the IIgs. Both
> free.
>
They don't do *C* for the GS though. AFAIK, nothing does except Orca.
-uso.
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| Re: appple 2 wiki ? [message #191567 is a reply to message #191566] |
Sat, 23 November 2013 20:43 |
Egan Ford
Messages: 304
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 11/23/13 6:33 PM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> They don't do *C* for the GS though. AFAIK, nothing does except Orca.
True, however floating around the Net is a port of ORCA/C to the Mac
(68K) for use with MPW. Or something like that.
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