| Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16375] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 20:09  |
Steve
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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Hello... im new this forum, and Macs so bear with me here. I have a Mac
Plus (this counts as a vintage mac, right?) that i got at a yard sale.
fired right up and ran great as soon as i plugged it in, mouse, keyboard,
and computer are all in great shape. came with one floppy in it that has
some old MSWorks documents, MSworks, etc. I didnt use it for the first few
months but it did work 100% fine.... could open whatever document i wanted,
word process, use the finder, etc. it recently regained my interest and
i've been upgrading/building it up... got a printer, fresh paper, new ink,
all the cables, etc. decided to upgrade the RAM as well. i read the RAM
Upgrade article here
http://lowendmac.com/ram/plus.shtml
got some RAM on ebay, and put it in the other day. Im not a novice when it
comes to computer/electronics repair and tinkering, and everything went
pretty swimmingly. was nice and gentle, didnt have to get agressive, old
ram came out, new ram went in. the only discrepancy was that the guide
says to clip resistors 8 and 9... my mac only had one of those resistors in
it (cant remember which one), so i clipped it anyways. I fired it up
before I put it all together, and it booted up fine so i figured it was
good to go. I just got my printer cable in the mail so i started the Mac
up to print my first document! I was so excited! when I opened up a
document that was saved on the floppy disk, it started to open as usual,
made the typical processing noises, and then finally went quiet at the
MSWorks 1.1 intro window, with the wristwatch cursor staring me in the
face. wtf. the computer has pretty much stalled, although the date and
calendar does flash and stay current. the screensaver comes on too, but
wont turn off because it is not accepting any of my inputs. i powered off
and powered on (i hate doing that, is there any good way to power down in
the event of a stall?) and tried again once or twice more with different
documents. no go. tried to open MSWorks straight up, instead of opening
individual files. nothing. i just tried to navigate to the Finder, and
even that stalled it.
so any idea what gives? i guess i can take it apart and try to reseat the
ram, but im pretty confident it went in properly. i read somewhere a quick
little blurb about having to adjust the 12v voltage supply after making
upgrades. does that sound relevant/reasonable?
kinda bummed here. love the computer but dont like it not working on me.
any ideas would be great.
-Steve
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16387 is a reply to message #16375] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 21:21  |
Clark Martin
Messages: 156
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:09 PM, Steve wrote:
> Hello... im new this forum, and Macs so bear with me here. I have a Mac Plus (this counts as a vintage mac, right?) that i got at a yard sale. fired right up and ran great as soon as i plugged it in, mouse, keyboard, and computer are all in great shape. came with one floppy in it that has some old MSWorks documents, MSworks, etc. I didnt use it for the first few months but it did work 100% fine.... could open whatever document i wanted, word process, use the finder, etc. it recently regained my interest and i've been upgrading/building it up... got a printer, fresh paper, new ink, all the cables, etc. decided to upgrade the RAM as well. i read the RAM Upgrade article here
>
> http://lowendmac.com/ram/plus.shtml
>
> got some RAM on ebay, and put it in the other day. Im not a novice when it comes to computer/electronics repair and tinkering, and everything went pretty swimmingly. was nice and gentle, didnt have to get agressive, old ram came out, new ram went in. the only discrepancy was that the guide says to clip resistors 8 and 9... my mac only had one of those resistors in it (cant remember which one), so i clipped it anyways. I fired it up before I put it all together, and it booted up fine so i figured it was good to go. I just got my printer cable in the mail so i started the Mac up to print my first document! I was so excited! when I opened up a document that was saved on the floppy disk, it started to open as usual, made the typical processing noises, and then finally went quiet at the MSWorks 1.1 intro window, with the wristwatch cursor staring me in the face. wtf. the computer has pretty much stalled, although the date and calendar does flash and stay current. the screensaver comes on too, but wont turn off because it is not accepting any of my inputs. i powered off and powered on (i hate doing that, is there any good way to power down in the event of a stall?) and tried again once or twice more with different documents. no go. tried to open MSWorks straight up, instead of opening individual files. nothing. i just tried to navigate to the Finder, and even that stalled it.
>
> so any idea what gives? i guess i can take it apart and try to reseat the ram, but im pretty confident it went in properly. i read somewhere a quick little blurb about having to adjust the 12v voltage supply after making upgrades. does that sound relevant/reasonable?
>
Actually you need to adjust the 5V supply. One symptom of that problem is during the boot process, when the floppy drive starts up the machine reboots. There is another possible scenario, I don't know the specifics but it result in the computer rebooting. Your description doesn't include rebooting so this isn't the problem.
> kinda bummed here. love the computer but dont like it not working on me. any ideas would be great.
Two things come to mind. Either the system isn't correctly reading the available RAM or the software on that floppy is messed up.
Do you know how much RAM it had when you got it?
Do you know how much RAM the system reported it had when you got it?
Do you know how much RAM it has now?
Can you check on how much RAM the system is reporting it has now?
The missing resistor likely means it was already upgraded to 2.5Mb at some time in the past.
By clipping the resistor you told it has 4Mb.
I don't know just what happens in a Mac Plus when the actual memory and indicated memory sizes don't agree. But the problems you describe could fit. But I'm more inclined to think it would through a boot error (a Mac ICON centered on the screen with a set of hexadecimal numbers below it.
Note that it's also possible that any memory upgrade got removed at some point and replaced with 256K SIMMs.
A corrupted system on the floppy could certainly cause those problems. I would recommend getting a clean system for it in any event. A system of unknown origin could have any number of problems in it.
AFAIK you can still download installers for older systems from Apple (although it may take some work.) The biggest problem may be getting it on to the appropriate floppy. It generally requires downloading it on a relatively modern Mac then moving the disk image over to an old enough Mac with a working 800K capable floppy drive (sometimes requiring one or more intermediate Macs) and then writing the system image to a floppy disk.
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Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16388 is a reply to message #16387] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 21:31 |
Steve
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
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Thanks for the reply. ill answer your questions:
it had 1 MB of RAM. i did not verify this by checking the system specs,
but it says 1 MB on the back, and 4 sticks of the stock ram, presumably 256
kb a piece.
it has 4 MB of RAM now, and the system reports 4096 kb. so that worked.
i read elsewhere that the plus didnt ship with the resistor R9... it does
not look clipped. if the resistor was clipped, the guy went thru the
trouble of desoldering the legs of the resistor and resoldering the holes.
looks stock, from the factory, unlikely that anyone has ever opened this
computer before me.
the computer has no trouble booting up, or rebooting, etc. i hate shutting
it off and turning it on, but I am trying to explore what 'trips' this
stalling behavior. as of now trying to open a word document, MSWorks 1.1,
or the finder will crash it.
i have it all apart again cause id like to throw the R8 resistor back in
there, revert to stock ram, and try it out again for troubleshooting. I
pretty much ditched the R8 resistor when i took it out which was foolish,
now i dont know the resistance value and cant find that info anywhere.
Thanks for the help... hopefully i can get somewhere with this.
-Steve
On Monday, September 17, 2012 9:21:42 PM UTC-4, Clark Martin wrote:
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:09 PM, Steve wrote:
>
> Hello... im new this forum, and Macs so bear with me here. I have a Mac
> Plus (this counts as a vintage mac, right?) that i got at a yard sale.
> fired right up and ran great as soon as i plugged it in, mouse, keyboard,
> and computer are all in great shape. came with one floppy in it that has
> some old MSWorks documents, MSworks, etc. I didnt use it for the first few
> months but it did work 100% fine.... could open whatever document i wanted,
> word process, use the finder, etc. it recently regained my interest and
> i've been upgrading/building it up... got a printer, fresh paper, new ink,
> all the cables, etc. decided to upgrade the RAM as well. i read the RAM
> Upgrade article here
>
> http://lowendmac.com/ram/plus.shtml
>
> got some RAM on ebay, and put it in the other day. Im not a novice when
> it comes to computer/electronics repair and tinkering, and everything went
> pretty swimmingly. was nice and gentle, didnt have to get agressive, old
> ram came out, new ram went in. the only discrepancy was that the guide
> says to clip resistors 8 and 9... my mac only had one of those resistors in
> it (cant remember which one), so i clipped it anyways. I fired it up
> before I put it all together, and it booted up fine so i figured it was
> good to go. I just got my printer cable in the mail so i started the Mac
> up to print my first document! I was so excited! when I opened up a
> document that was saved on the floppy disk, it started to open as usual,
> made the typical processing noises, and then finally went quiet at the
> MSWorks 1.1 intro window, with the wristwatch cursor staring me in the
> face. wtf. the computer has pretty much stalled, although the date and
> calendar does flash and stay current. the screensaver comes on too, but
> wont turn off because it is not accepting any of my inputs. i powered off
> and powered on (i hate doing that, is there any good way to power down in
> the event of a stall?) and tried again once or twice more with different
> documents. no go. tried to open MSWorks straight up, instead of opening
> individual files. nothing. i just tried to navigate to the Finder, and
> even that stalled it.
>
> so any idea what gives? i guess i can take it apart and try to reseat the
> ram, but im pretty confident it went in properly. i read somewhere a quick
> little blurb about having to adjust the 12v voltage supply after making
> upgrades. does that sound relevant/reasonable?
>
>
> Actually you need to adjust the 5V supply. One symptom of that problem is
> during the boot process, when the floppy drive starts up the machine
> reboots. There is another possible scenario, I don't know the specifics
> but it result in the computer rebooting. Your description doesn't include
> rebooting so this isn't the problem.
>
> kinda bummed here. love the computer but dont like it not working on me.
> any ideas would be great.
>
>
> Two things come to mind. Either the system isn't correctly reading the
> available RAM or the software on that floppy is messed up.
>
> Do you know how much RAM it had when you got it?
>
> Do you know how much RAM the system reported it had when you got it?
>
>
> Do you know how much RAM it has now?
>
> Can you check on how much RAM the system is reporting it has now?
>
> The missing resistor likely means it was already upgraded to 2.5Mb at some
> time in the past.
>
> By clipping the resistor you told it has 4Mb.
>
> I don't know just what happens in a Mac Plus when the actual memory and
> indicated memory sizes don't agree. But the problems you describe could
> fit. But I'm more inclined to think it would through a boot error (a Mac
> ICON centered on the screen with a set of hexadecimal numbers below it.
>
>
> Note that it's also possible that any memory upgrade got removed at some
> point and replaced with 256K SIMMs.
>
>
> A corrupted system on the floppy could certainly cause those problems. I
> would recommend getting a clean system for it in any event. A system of
> unknown origin could have any number of problems in it.
>
> AFAIK you can still download installers for older systems from Apple
> (although it may take some work.) The biggest problem may be getting it on
> to the appropriate floppy. It generally requires downloading it on a
> relatively modern Mac then moving the disk image over to an old enough Mac
> with a working 800K capable floppy drive (sometimes requiring one or more
> intermediate Macs) and then writing the system image to a floppy disk.
>
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| RE: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16400 is a reply to message #16388] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 22:56 |
Jason Johnson
Messages: 131
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
You don't need to replace the resistor to put the original ram back in.
My guess like previously stated is floppy drive is the issue or the new ram. I've had my plus for 17 years and did the upgrade back then. Speed of the ram is an issue. Old pc ram that isn't faster than 100 ns, which a lot wasn't will cause issues. Remember Mac used better stuff especially with ram. That's why we had a 128 first instead of a 256 Mac as to keep cost down.
Good luck.
Jason
Rainier, Or
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:31:59 -0700
From: portcitypeds@gmail.com
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade
Thanks for the reply. ill answer your questions:
it had 1 MB of RAM. i did not verify this by checking the system specs, but it says 1 MB on the back, and 4 sticks of the stock ram, presumably 256 kb a piece.
it has 4 MB of RAM now, and the system reports 4096 kb. so that worked.
i read elsewhere that the plus didnt ship with the resistor R9... it does not look clipped. if the resistor was clipped, the guy went thru the trouble of desoldering the legs of the resistor and resoldering the holes. looks stock, from the factory, unlikely that anyone has ever opened this computer before me.
the computer has no trouble booting up, or rebooting, etc. i hate shutting it off and turning it on, but I am trying to explore what 'trips' this stalling behavior. as of now trying to open a word document, MSWorks 1.1, or the finder will crash it.
i have it all apart again cause id like to throw the R8 resistor back in there, revert to stock ram, and try it out again for troubleshooting. I pretty much ditched the R8 resistor when i took it out which was foolish, now i dont know the resistance value and cant find that info anywhere. Thanks for the help... hopefully i can get somewhere with this.
-Steve
On Monday, September 17, 2012 9:21:42 PM UTC-4, Clark Martin wrote:
On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:09 PM, Steve wrote:
Hello... im new this forum, and Macs so bear with me here. I have a Mac Plus (this counts as a vintage mac, right?) that i got at a yard sale. fired right up and ran great as soon as i plugged it in, mouse, keyboard, and computer are all in great shape. came with one floppy in it that has some old MSWorks documents, MSworks, etc. I didnt use it for the first few months but it did work 100% fine.... could open whatever document i wanted, word process, use the finder, etc. it recently regained my interest and i've been upgrading/building it up... got a printer, fresh paper, new ink, all the cables, etc. decided to upgrade the RAM as well. i read the RAM Upgrade article here
http://lowendmac.com/ram/plus.shtml
got some RAM on ebay, and put it in the other day. Im not a novice when it comes to computer/electronics repair and tinkering, and everything went pretty swimmingly. was nice and gentle, didnt have to get agressive, old ram came out, new ram went in. the only discrepancy was that the guide says to clip resistors 8 and 9... my mac only had one of those resistors in it (cant remember which one), so i clipped it anyways. I fired it up before I put it all together, and it booted up fine so i figured it was good to go. I just got my printer cable in the mail so i started the Mac up to print my first document! I was so excited! when I opened up a document that was saved on the floppy disk, it started to open as usual, made the typical processing noises, and then finally went quiet at the MSWorks 1.1 intro window, with the wristwatch cursor staring me in the face. wtf. the computer has pretty much stalled, although the date and calendar does flash and stay current. the screensaver comes on too, but wont turn off because it is not accepting any of my inputs. i powered off and powered on (i hate doing that, is there any good way to power down in the event of a stall?) and tried again once or twice more with different documents. no go. tried to open MSWorks straight up, instead of opening individual files. nothing. i just tried to navigate to the Finder, and even that stalled it.
so any idea what gives? i guess i can take it apart and try to reseat the ram, but im pretty confident it went in properly. i read somewhere a quick little blurb about having to adjust the 12v voltage supply after making upgrades. does that sound relevant/reasonable?
Actually you need to adjust the 5V supply. One symptom of that problem is during the boot process, when the floppy drive starts up the machine reboots. There is another possible scenario, I don't know the specifics but it result in the computer rebooting. Your description doesn't include rebooting so this isn't the problem.
kinda bummed here. love the computer but dont like it not working on me. any ideas would be great.
Two things come to mind. Either the system isn't correctly reading the available RAM or the software on that floppy is messed up.
Do you know how much RAM it had when you got it?
Do you know how much RAM the system reported it had when you got it?
Do you know how much RAM it has now?
Can you check on how much RAM the system is reporting it has now?
The missing resistor likely means it was already upgraded to 2.5Mb at some time in the past.
By clipping the resistor you told it has 4Mb.
I don't know just what happens in a Mac Plus when the actual memory and indicated memory sizes don't agree. But the problems you describe could fit. But I'm more inclined to think it would through a boot error (a Mac ICON centered on the screen with a set of hexadecimal numbers below it.
Note that it's also possible that any memory upgrade got removed at some point and replaced with 256K SIMMs.
A corrupted system on the floppy could certainly cause those problems. I would recommend getting a clean system for it in any event. A system of unknown origin could have any number of problems in it.
AFAIK you can still download installers for older systems from Apple (although it may take some work.) The biggest problem may be getting it on to the appropriate floppy. It generally requires downloading it on a relatively modern Mac then moving the disk image over to an old enough Mac with a working 800K capable floppy drive (sometimes requiring one or more intermediate Macs) and then writing the system image to a floppy disk.
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Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/
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Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16402 is a reply to message #16388] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 23:30 |
Clark Martin
Messages: 156
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
On Sep 17, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Steve <portcitypeds@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply. ill answer your questions:
>
> it had 1 MB of RAM. i did not verify this by checking the system specs, but it says 1 MB on the back, and 4 sticks of the stock ram, presumably 256 kb a piece.
All Mac Pluses said 1Mb, there were no other versions.
>
> it has 4 MB of RAM now, and the system reports 4096 kb. so that worked.
>
> i read elsewhere that the plus didnt ship with the resistor R9... it does not look clipped. if the resistor was clipped, the guy went thru the trouble of desoldering the legs of the resistor and resoldering the holes. looks stock, from the factory, unlikely that anyone has ever opened this computer before me.
>
My Plus had both resistors. It was an early one, in fact it was an upgraded 512K Mac.
One hint for future reference: cut the resistor lead mid way on one end only and push the leads apart. This way you can solder the lead back together if needed.
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16403 is a reply to message #16400] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 23:31 |
Clark Martin
Messages: 156
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
On Sep 17, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Jason Johnson <havokalien@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You don't need to replace the resistor to put the original ram back in.
>
> My guess like previously stated is floppy drive is the issue or the new ram. I've had my plus for 17 years and did the upgrade back then. Speed of the ram is an issue. Old pc ram that isn't faster than 100 ns, which a lot wasn't will cause issues. Remember Mac used better stuff especially with ram. That's why we had a 128 first instead of a 256 Mac as to keep cost down.
Uh, standard RAM for the Plus was 150 nS.
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| RE: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16404 is a reply to message #16403] |
Mon, 17 September 2012 23:49 |
Jason Johnson
Messages: 131
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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150 ns really? My SE accelerated and my plus both had 100 ns and the accelerated SE required 70 ns or better for more than 4 megabytes to be used. Thats great if that's true, which I don't doubt as I was not the pluses first owner, but I still believe the speed of the ram or just age of it or handling could cause the ram not be function in the plus correctly.
Subject: Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade
From: cmmac@sonic.net
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:31:55 -0700
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
On Sep 17, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Jason Johnson <havokalien@hotmail.com> wrote:
You don't need to replace the resistor to put the original ram back in.
My guess like previously stated is floppy drive is the issue or the new ram. I've had my plus for 17 years and did the upgrade back then. Speed of the ram is an issue. Old pc ram that isn't faster than 100 ns, which a lot wasn't will cause issues. Remember Mac used better stuff especially with ram. That's why we had a 128 first instead of a 256 Mac as to keep cost down.
Uh, standard RAM for the Plus was 150 nS.
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16437 is a reply to message #16402] |
Tue, 18 September 2012 08:45 |
Steve
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
thanks for the tip. i would have clipped and bent but i was dealing with
minimal tools. my set of dikes was just whatever my leatherman had. by
the time i got one lead clipped it was all kinda haggard and i really dont
like leaving things dangling. haha im a mechanic and im used to working on
stuff that moves! so the idea of a resistor just hanging out on one leg
bothered me, so i cut it off completely.
On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:30:16 PM UTC-4, Clark Martin wrote:
>
>
>
> Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
>
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 6:31 PM, Steve <portci...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the reply. ill answer your questions:
>>
>> it had 1 MB of RAM. i did not verify this by checking the system specs,
> but it says 1 MB on the back, and 4 sticks of the stock ram, presumably 256
> kb a piece.
>
> All Mac Pluses said 1Mb, there were no other versions.
>>
>> it has 4 MB of RAM now, and the system reports 4096 kb. so that worked.
>>
>> i read elsewhere that the plus didnt ship with the resistor R9... it
> does not look clipped. if the resistor was clipped, the guy went thru the
> trouble of desoldering the legs of the resistor and resoldering the holes.
> looks stock, from the factory, unlikely that anyone has ever opened this
> computer before me.
>>
>
> My Plus had both resistors. It was an early one, in fact it was an
> upgraded 512K Mac.
>
> One hint for future reference: cut the resistor lead mid way on one end
> only and push the leads apart. This way you can solder the lead back
> together if needed.
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16438 is a reply to message #16404] |
Tue, 18 September 2012 08:48 |
Steve
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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well i think this is the problem. shoulda read the ebay ad closer. the
speed of my ram isssss (drumroll) 80 ns! so i expect that is a problem.
strange that it does read the ram well enough to boot up, and even
recognizes that i have 4096kb in there. isnt till you start utilizing it,
i guess, that the machine malfunctions. back to the old ram for now i
suppose.
-Steve
On Monday, September 17, 2012 11:49:43 PM UTC-4, havok...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> 150 ns really? My SE accelerated and my plus both had 100 ns and the
> accelerated SE required 70 ns or better for more than 4 megabytes to be
> used. Thats great if that's true, which I don't doubt as I was not the
> pluses first owner, but I still believe the speed of the ram or just age of
> it or handling could cause the ram not be function in the plus correctly.
>
> ------------------------------
> Subject: Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade
> From: cm...@sonic.net <javascript:>
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 20:31:55 -0700
> To: vintag...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
>
>
>
> Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
>
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Jason Johnson <havok...@hotmail.com<javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
> You don't need to replace the resistor to put the original ram back in.
>
> My guess like previously stated is floppy drive is the issue or the new
> ram. I've had my plus for 17 years and did the upgrade back then. Speed of
> the ram is an issue. Old pc ram that isn't faster than 100 ns, which a lot
> wasn't will cause issues. Remember Mac used better stuff especially with
> ram. That's why we had a 128 first instead of a 256 Mac as to keep cost
> down.
>
>
> Uh, standard RAM for the Plus was 150 nS.
>
> --
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16471 is a reply to message #16438] |
Tue, 18 September 2012 14:26 |
Clark Martin
Messages: 156
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
On Sep 18, 2012, at 5:48 AM, Steve <portcitypeds@gmail.com> wrote:
> well i think this is the problem. shoulda read the ebay ad closer. the speed of my ram isssss (drumroll) 80 ns! so i expect that is a problem. strange that it does read the ram well enough to boot up, and even recognizes that i have 4096kb in there. isnt till you start utilizing it, i guess, that the machine malfunctions. back to the old ram for now i suppose.
Er, 80 nS IS faster than 150 nS.
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #16749 is a reply to message #16400] |
Tue, 18 September 2012 08:51 |
Steve
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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really? i like that idea, but are you pretty sure about that? i dont
wanna fry something. if this is the case i can simply go back to the old
ram and use it until the new stuff comes in.
On Monday, September 17, 2012 10:56:58 PM UTC-4, havok...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> You don't need to replace the resistor to put the original ram back in.
>
> My guess like previously stated is floppy drive is the issue or the new
> ram. I've had my plus for 17 years and did the upgrade back then. Speed of
> the ram is an issue. Old pc ram that isn't faster than 100 ns, which a lot
> wasn't will cause issues. Remember Mac used better stuff especially with
> ram. That's why we had a 128 first instead of a 256 Mac as to keep cost
> down.
>
> Good luck.
> Jason
> Rainier, Or
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2012 18:31:59 -0700
> From: portci...@gmail.com <javascript:>
> To: vintag...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> Subject: Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade
>
> Thanks for the reply. ill answer your questions:
>
> it had 1 MB of RAM. i did not verify this by checking the system specs,
> but it says 1 MB on the back, and 4 sticks of the stock ram, presumably 256
> kb a piece.
>
> it has 4 MB of RAM now, and the system reports 4096 kb. so that worked.
>
> i read elsewhere that the plus didnt ship with the resistor R9... it does
> not look clipped. if the resistor was clipped, the guy went thru the
> trouble of desoldering the legs of the resistor and resoldering the holes.
> looks stock, from the factory, unlikely that anyone has ever opened this
> computer before me.
>
> the computer has no trouble booting up, or rebooting, etc. i hate
> shutting it off and turning it on, but I am trying to explore what 'trips'
> this stalling behavior. as of now trying to open a word document, MSWorks
> 1.1, or the finder will crash it.
>
> i have it all apart again cause id like to throw the R8 resistor back in
> there, revert to stock ram, and try it out again for troubleshooting. I
> pretty much ditched the R8 resistor when i took it out which was foolish,
> now i dont know the resistance value and cant find that info anywhere.
> Thanks for the help... hopefully i can get somewhere with this.
> -Steve
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 17, 2012 9:21:42 PM UTC-4, Clark Martin wrote:
>
>
> On Sep 17, 2012, at 5:09 PM, Steve wrote:
>
> Hello... im new this forum, and Macs so bear with me here. I have a Mac
> Plus (this counts as a vintage mac, right?) that i got at a yard sale.
> fired right up and ran great as soon as i plugged it in, mouse, keyboard,
> and computer are all in great shape. came with one floppy in it that has
> some old MSWorks documents, MSworks, etc. I didnt use it for the first few
> months but it did work 100% fine.... could open whatever document i wanted,
> word process, use the finder, etc. it recently regained my interest and
> i've been upgrading/building it up... got a printer, fresh paper, new ink,
> all the cables, etc. decided to upgrade the RAM as well. i read the RAM
> Upgrade article here
>
> http://lowendmac.com/ram/plus.shtml
>
> got some RAM on ebay, and put it in the other day. Im not a novice when
> it comes to computer/electronics repair and tinkering, and everything went
> pretty swimmingly. was nice and gentle, didnt have to get agressive, old
> ram came out, new ram went in. the only discrepancy was that the guide
> says to clip resistors 8 and 9... my mac only had one of those resistors in
> it (cant remember which one), so i clipped it anyways. I fired it up
> before I put it all together, and it booted up fine so i figured it was
> good to go. I just got my printer cable in the mail so i started the Mac
> up to print my first document! I was so excited! when I opened up a
> document that was saved on the floppy disk, it started to open as usual,
> made the typical processing noises, and then finally went quiet at the
> MSWorks 1.1 intro window, with the wristwatch cursor staring me in the
> face. wtf. the computer has pretty much stalled, although the date and
> calendar does flash and stay current. the screensaver comes on too, but
> wont turn off because it is not accepting any of my inputs. i powered off
> and powered on (i hate doing that, is there any good way to power down in
> the event of a stall?) and tried again once or twice more with different
> documents. no go. tried to open MSWorks straight up, instead of opening
> individual files. nothing. i just tried to navigate to the Finder, and
> even that stalled it.
>
> so any idea what gives? i guess i can take it apart and try to reseat the
> ram, but im pretty confident it went in properly. i read somewhere a quick
> little blurb about having to adjust the 12v voltage supply after making
> upgrades. does that sound relevant/reasonable?
>
>
> Actually you need to adjust the 5V supply. One symptom of that problem is
> during the boot process, when the floppy drive starts up the machine
> reboots. There is another possible scenario, I don't know the specifics
> but it result in the computer rebooting. Your description doesn't include
> rebooting so this isn't the problem.
>
> kinda bummed here. love the computer but dont like it not working on me.
> any ideas would be great.
>
>
> Two things come to mind. Either the system isn't correctly reading the
> available RAM or the software on that floppy is messed up.
>
> Do you know how much RAM it had when you got it?
>
> Do you know how much RAM the system reported it had when you got it?
>
>
> Do you know how much RAM it has now?
>
> Can you check on how much RAM the system is reporting it has now?
>
> The missing resistor likely means it was already upgraded to 2.5Mb at some
> time in the past.
>
> By clipping the resistor you told it has 4Mb.
>
> I don't know just what happens in a Mac Plus when the actual memory and
> indicated memory sizes don't agree. But the problems you describe could
> fit. But I'm more inclined to think it would through a boot error (a Mac
> ICON centered on the screen with a set of hexadecimal numbers below it.
>
>
> Note that it's also possible that any memory upgrade got removed at some
> point and replaced with 256K SIMMs.
>
>
> A corrupted system on the floppy could certainly cause those problems. I
> would recommend getting a clean system for it in any event. A system of
> unknown origin could have any number of problems in it.
>
> AFAIK you can still download installers for older systems from Apple
> (although it may take some work.) The biggest problem may be getting it on
> to the appropriate floppy. It generally requires downloading it on a
> relatively modern Mac then moving the disk image over to an old enough Mac
> with a working 800K capable floppy drive (sometimes requiring one or more
> intermediate Macs) and then writing the system image to a floppy disk.
>
>
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> netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #17132 is a reply to message #16749] |
Fri, 21 September 2012 10:56 |
Dr. Hawkins
Messages: 22
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On Tuesday, September 18, 2012, Steve wrote:
> really? i like that idea, but are you pretty sure about that? i dont
> wanna fry something. if this is the case i can simply go back to the old
> ram and use it until the new stuff comes in.
> On Monday, September 17, 2012 10:56:58 PM UTC-4, havok...@hotmail.com<javascript:_e({}, 'cvml', 'havok...@hotmail.com');>wrote:
>>
>> My guess like previously stated is floppy drive is the issue or the new
>> ram. I've had my plus for 17 years and did the upgrade back then. Speed of
>> the ram is an issue. Old pc ram that isn't faster than 100 ns, which a lot
>> wasn't will cause issues. Remember Mac used better stuff especially with
>> ram. That's why we had a 128 first instead of a 256 Mac as to keep cost
>> down.
>>
>
actually, the memory size was an artifact of the notion that it should have
a single bank of memory.
early prototypes were on a 6809, but the 8 bit word meant 64k, and the
screen used too much of thT--so it got the 68k used in the Lisa
--
The Hawkins Law Firm
Richard E. Hawkins, Esq.
(702) 508-8462
HawkinsLawFirm@gmail.com
3025 S. Maryland Parkway
Suite A
Las Vegas, NV 89109
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #17161 is a reply to message #16471] |
Tue, 25 September 2012 17:49 |
Steve
Messages: 22
Registered: April 2008
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
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well shoot. i didnt read that till just now. 80ns is faster than 150ns.
Didnt really understand what the rating meant anyways, i was thinking
"bigger is better". that being said, after putting the original RAM back
in, the computer functions as normal. Havent addressed the ram issue since
then. any ideas? I left more leg on the resistor this time so i can
rejoin it easier if i have to.
-Steve
On Tuesday, September 18, 2012 2:26:24 PM UTC-4, Clark Martin wrote:
>
>
>
> Sent from an iPhone, don't ask whose.
>
> On Sep 18, 2012, at 5:48 AM, Steve <portci...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
> wrote:
>
>> well i think this is the problem. shoulda read the ebay ad closer. the
> speed of my ram isssss (drumroll) 80 ns! so i expect that is a problem.
> strange that it does read the ram well enough to boot up, and even
> recognizes that i have 4096kb in there. isnt till you start utilizing it,
> i guess, that the machine malfunctions. back to the old ram for now i
> suppose.
>
> Er, 80 nS IS faster than 150 nS.
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| Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade [message #17175 is a reply to message #17161] |
Tue, 25 September 2012 19:48 |
Gregg Eshelman
Messages: 111
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
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|
DRAM can't be "too fast". Depending on how the memory read/write timing is controlled, using faster than specified memory can make the computer slightly faster.
One example, in PC's and clones at least into the early 90's, memory timing was rather "loose". The specifications had a rather wide access window where the RAM had to be ready by a certain time but no later than another certain time in the cycle, with each cycle starting immediately after the rear or write was done, no matter where in the timing window it happened.
The original specification on speed usually put the ready time close to the middle of the window. Using faster than specified RAM enabled the computer to rear or write data sooner, then start the next cycle.
With user adjustable settings (or jumpers in earlier systems) using faster RAM allowed the number of wait states to be reduced, speeding it up even more. It's especially noticeable on PCs slower than 100Mhz with a visual (and audible) memory count up test. Going from the speed specified in a 286 I had to the fastest I could get (IIRC original spec was 100 or 150ns and I put 70ns in it) made the test sound go from easily countable clicks to a short and fast BZZZZZZT noise. The OEM spec must have had RAM access right at the end of the timing window. 70ns likely had it right at the front.
For systems with fixed RAM timing where reads and writes happen at exactly the same time in each cycle, no matter how fast the RAM is, using faster RAM won't make a difference but slower RAM will not be ready to be read or written when the memory controller expects it. If the RAM is ready early it will not be read or written one nanosecond sooner than the system design calls for.
How tightly controlled is the RAM timing in the older Macintosh computers? Any leeway at all or do they used a fixed timing system.
When it comes to later RAM technology like SDRAM you can't always use a faster speed on a slower system. Until the later years of SDRAM it was all made compatible with any slower speed but quite a bit of the last of the PC133 and PC100 will only work at those speeds. DDR and its later revisions are supposed to work at any lower speed in the same socket but I've run into some that will only run at its rated speed or one step slower.
--- On Tue, 9/25/12, Steve <portcitypeds@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Steve <portcitypeds@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Having Trouble With Mac Plus after RAM Upgrade
To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
Date: Tuesday, September 25, 2012, 3:49 PM
well shoot. i didnt read that till just now. 80ns is faster than 150ns. Didnt really understand what the rating meant anyways, i was thinking "bigger is better". that being said, after putting the original RAM back in, the computer functions as normal. Havent addressed the ram issue since then. any ideas? I left more leg on the resistor this time so i can rejoin it easier if i have to.
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| LC III problems [message #30122 is a reply to message #17132] |
Thu, 27 December 2012 14:07 |
Gorka Luis Martinez M
Messages: 2
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
|
|
In 2010 I bought a mint condition Macintosh LCIII, CPU, 12in color monitor, keyboard and mouse off eBay. It came with System 7 loaded onto the HD and otherwise clean. I used it regularly without problems for a few months until I had a problem during shutting down, as I would get a system error and would have to switch it off manually.
Due to personal and work related reasons I have had my vintage collection a bit neglected for a few months and did not really got into troubleshooting the shutting off problem. The LC sat on my desk, plugged to the wall and I fired it off today taking advantage of a few days off for Xmas….. The green light on the monitor comes on and I can hear it and the CPU makes the usual noises start up noises but I get no video. I tried the brightness and contrast knobs and I couldn' t see a thing. The screen seems to be completely blank. I have both a DB-15 to VGA adapter and another vintage 15in monitor to try if the computer itself works, but looks like the monitor definitively isn't working. I had a similar problem with a much modern monitor (it came with a PowerMac G3 223MHz) with the same symptoms and I discarded it. But I would really liked to keep the 12in one as it fits perfectly over the pizza box LC.
Anyone with experience can give me some leads? Is the monitor salvageable?
Thanks,
Gorka from Spain
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| Re: LC III problems [message #30123 is a reply to message #30122] |
Thu, 27 December 2012 14:34 |
Britt Dodd
Messages: 26
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Junior Member |
|
|
Check the voltage of the PRAM battery...If the LC III acts anything like my
Performa 6100 when the PRAM battery is dead, you'll get fan noises but no
video.
On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Gorka Luis Martinez Mezo <glmm@gmx.net>wrote:
> In 2010 I bought a mint condition Macintosh LCIII, CPU, 12in color
> monitor, keyboard and mouse off eBay. It came with System 7 loaded onto the
> HD and otherwise clean. I used it regularly without problems for a few
> months until I had a problem during shutting down, as I would get a system
> error and would have to switch it off manually.
>
> Due to personal and work related reasons I have had my vintage collection
> a bit neglected for a few months and did not really got into
> troubleshooting the shutting off problem. The LC sat on my desk, plugged to
> the wall and I fired it off today taking advantage of a few days off for
> Xmas….. The green light on the monitor comes on and I can hear it and the
> CPU makes the usual noises start up noises but I get no video. I tried the
> brightness and contrast knobs and I couldn' t see a thing. The screen seems
> to be completely blank. I have both a DB-15 to VGA adapter and another
> vintage 15in monitor to try if the computer itself works, but looks like
> the monitor definitively isn't working. I had a similar problem with a much
> modern monitor (it came with a PowerMac G3 223MHz) with the same symptoms
> and I discarded it. But I would really liked to keep the 12in one as it
> fits perfectly over the pizza box LC.
>
> Anyone with experience can give me some leads? Is the monitor salvageable?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gorka from Spain
>
> --
> -----
> You received this message because you are a member of the Vintage Macs
> group.
> The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/vintagemacs.shtml and our
> netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml
> To post to this group, send email to vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
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> For more options, visit this group at
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>
> Support for older Macs: http://lowendmac.com/services/
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| RE: LC III problems [message #30124 is a reply to message #30122] |
Thu, 27 December 2012 20:53 |
Jason Johnson
Messages: 131
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I would guess the motherboard needs new caps on the cpu tather than the monitor crapping out. If it got a signal to turn on but no display I wouldtest it with another mac if possible but after two decades the caps on the motherboard in an LC (low cost im thinking) the capacitors are just finished. I just had all my LC's recapped (goo all over) and so I am told (havent got thembackyet) they are good to go. JasonRainier, Oregon U.S.A.
> Subject: LC III problems
> From: glmm@gmx.net
> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 20:07:20 +0100
> To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
>
> In 2010 I bought a mint condition Macintosh LCIII, CPU, 12in color monitor, keyboard and mouse off eBay. It came with System 7 loaded onto the HD and otherwise clean. I used it regularly without problems for a few months until I had a problem during shutting down, as I would get a system error and would have to switch it off manually.
>
> Due to personal and work related reasons I have had my vintage collection a bit neglected for a few months and did not really got into troubleshooting the shutting off problem. The LC sat on my desk, plugged to the wall and I fired it off today taking advantage of a few days off for Xmas….. The green light on the monitor comes on and I can hear it and the CPU makes the usual noises start up noises but I get no video. I tried the brightness and contrast knobs and I couldn' t see a thing. The screen seems to be completely blank. I have both a DB-15 to VGA adapter and another vintage 15in monitor to try if the computer itself works, but looks like the monitor definitively isn't working. I had a similar problem with a much modern monitor (it came with a PowerMac G3 223MHz) with the same symptoms and I discarded it. But I would really liked to keep the 12in one as it fits perfectly over the pizza box LC.
>
> Anyone with experience can give me some leads? Is the monitor salvageable?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Gorka from Spain
>
> --
> -----
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| Re: LC III problems [message #30125 is a reply to message #30122] |
Fri, 28 December 2012 02:00 |
Gregg Eshelman
Messages: 111
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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--- On Thu, 12/27/12, Gorka Luis Martinez Mezo <glmm@gmx.net> wrote:
> Anyone with experience can give me some leads? Is the
> monitor salvageable?
The LCIII works but the monitor doesn't?
Best bet is to find an older TV and electronics repair shop, especially with an equally older person running the soldering irons. ;-)
Hopefully it's a problem with a common component, not something that was used only in that monitor or only that one and a few of its contemporaries. Parts like flyback transformers can be a very common version used by many manufacturers or they may be a special design used in only a few or just one model.
There was one site, in Japanese, about hacking the 12" monitor to run 640x480, like the much less stylish 13". The hack is very different from the 640x480 hack for the Color Classic.
I used to have a 12" and contemplated doing the hack but without good English directions and better photos of all the steps I didn't want to try it.
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| Re: LC III problems [message #30126 is a reply to message #30123] |
Fri, 28 December 2012 06:18 |
Josh Watson
Messages: 1
Registered: December 2012
Karma: 0
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Junior Member |
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On 27 Dec 2012, at 19:34, Britt Dodd <brittman914@gmail.com> wrote:
> Check the voltage of the PRAM battery...If the LC III acts anything like my Performa 6100 when the PRAM battery is dead, you'll get fan noises but no video.
>
My Performa 450 (rebadged LC III) has done this too, and it was the PRAM battery both times, i'd recommend replacing that too.
Josh
>
> On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Gorka Luis Martinez Mezo <glmm@gmx.net> wrote:
>> In 2010 I bought a mint condition Macintosh LCIII, CPU, 12in color monitor, keyboard and mouse off eBay. It came with System 7 loaded onto the HD and otherwise clean. I used it regularly without problems for a few months until I had a problem during shutting down, as I would get a system error and would have to switch it off manually.
>>
>> Due to personal and work related reasons I have had my vintage collection a bit neglected for a few months and did not really got into troubleshooting the shutting off problem. The LC sat on my desk, plugged to the wall and I fired it off today taking advantage of a few days off for Xmas….. The green light on the monitor comes on and I can hear it and the CPU makes the usual noises start up noises but I get no video. I tried the brightness and contrast knobs and I couldn' t see a thing. The screen seems to be completely blank. I have both a DB-15 to VGA adapter and another vintage 15in monitor to try if the computer itself works, but looks like the monitor definitively isn't working. I had a similar problem with a much modern monitor (it came with a PowerMac G3 223MHz) with the same symptoms and I discarded it. But I would really liked to keep the 12in one as it fits perfectly over the pizza box LC.
>>
>> Anyone with experience can give me some leads? Is the monitor salvageable?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Gorka from Spain
>>
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| Re: LC III problems [message #30128 is a reply to message #30125] |
Fri, 28 December 2012 08:17 |
James Fraser
Messages: 66
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
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Member |
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Hello,
--- On Thu, 12/27/12, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@yahoo.com> wrote:
> There was one site, in Japanese, about hacking the 12"
> monitor to run 640x480, like the much less stylish 13". The
> hack is very different from the 640x480 hack for the Color
> Classic.
>
> I used to have a 12" and contemplated doing the hack but
> without good English directions and better photos of all the
> steps I didn't want to try it.
If you could throw the URL* out to the list, someone with a spare monitor sucking up space can check out the page and attempt the hack for themselves despite the language/picture barrier.
(Alternately, someone might take a look at it and be "inspired" to put together an English language version of the page.)
NB: I'm not about to claim that I would be that "someone," only that you never know who reads this stuff, so posting the URL can't do any harm. :)
Best,
James Fraser
*Archive.org's Wayback Machine makes it possible to pull up many (though not all) dead sites, too, just in case it's no longer up: http://archive.org/web/web.php
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| 12" M1296 640x480 hack. Re: LC III problems [message #30129 is a reply to message #30128] |
Fri, 28 December 2012 08:46 |
Gregg Eshelman
Messages: 111
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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--- On Fri, 12/28/12, James Fraser <wheresthatistanbul-pcilist@yahoo.com> wrote:
> From: James Fraser <wheresthatistanbul-pcilist@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: LC III problems
> To: vintage-macs@googlegroups.com
> Date: Friday, December 28, 2012, 6:17 AM
> Hello,
>
> --- On Thu, 12/27/12, Gregg Eshelman <g_alan_e@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> There was one site, in Japanese, about hacking the 12"
>> monitor to run 640x480, like the much less stylish 13".
> The
>> hack is very different from the 640x480 hack for the
> Color
>> Classic.
>>
>> I used to have a 12" and contemplated doing the hack
> but
>> without good English directions and better photos of
> all the
>> steps I didn't want to try it.
>
> If you could throw the URL* out to the list, someone with a
> spare monitor sucking up space can check out the page and
> attempt the hack for themselves despite the language/picture
> barrier.
>
> (Alternately, someone might take a look at it and be
> "inspired" to put together an English language version of
> the page.)
>
> NB: I'm not about to claim that I would be that "someone,"
> only that you never know who reads this stuff, so posting
> the URL can't do any harm. :)
I just tried Google and Yahoo, couldn't find the site. :( The model number of that monitor is M1296.
Someone with a lot of knowledge about how monitors work should be able to figure it out. It's been done once, it can be done again.
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