Article-I.D.: rayssd.682
Posted: Wed Apr  3 12:11:30 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 5-Apr-85 02:36:03 EST
Organization: Raytheon Co., Portsmouth RI
Lines: 15


	Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully)
topic.  Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio.  (I know
that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...)  For instance,
why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
to help the ship without endangering the entire crew.  If things
seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.

	Anyone else care to comment?


Joe Barone,		{allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b
Raytheon Co,		 Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI  02871

Article-I.D.: hou2d.527
Posted: Thu Apr  4 09:31:46 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 5-Apr-85 03:43:26 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Labs, Holmdel NJ
Lines: 11

How many centuries would it take the shuttle to get to the
location of the ship in distress??  No warp drive on the shuttles
(at least in Kirk's days at the Academy!!).


Al Baldwin
AT&T-Bell Labs
...!ihnp4!hou2d!afb3


[These opinions are my own....Who else would want them!!!]

Article-I.D.: moncol.247
Posted: Fri Apr  5 12:09:19 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 6-Apr-85 03:17:13 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
Organization: Monmouth College, West Long Branch, NJ 07764
Lines: 42

 > From: m1b@rayssd.UUCP
 > Message-ID: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
 > 
 > 	Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully)
 > topic.  Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
 > to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
 > the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio.  (I know
 > that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...)  For instance,
 > why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
 > to help the ship without endangering the entire crew.  If things
 > seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.

How far inside the neutral zone is the Kobayashi Maru and what do you
consider the capabilities of the standard Enterprise shuttlecraft?

As I seem to recall, they were not blessed with the greatest range (the
ones from "The Menagerie" and "Let This be Your Last Battlefield" may have
had longer range, but both were from starbases.)

Also, if you load them with crew and supplies, what do you do if you have
to evacuate the ship in a hurry? (runaway matter/antimatter reaction,
radiation, etc.)

Lastly, suppose things aren't kosher (remember they weren't in the movie).
You've just wasted several shuttles and valuable personnel. Now what? Do
you go in anyway to rescue everyone? Leave them to die? Use the Guardian of
Forever?



No, this seems to be one of those do-or-die times when nothing less than a
starship will do.


-- 
Name:		John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:	Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:		(201) 222-6600 x366
UUCP:		...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john	...!princeton!moncol!john
						   ...!pesnta!moncol!john
Silly Quote:
		"Ah, but what is a dream but reality without a backbone?"

Article-I.D.: ssc-vax.590
Posted: Thu Apr  4 15:58:35 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 6-Apr-85 03:34:16 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
Organization: Boeing Aerospace Co., Seattle, WA
Lines: 23

*** YOUR MESSAGE ***

 >  Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
 >  to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
 >  the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio.  (I know
 >  that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...)  For instance,
 >  why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
 >  to help the ship without endangering the entire crew.  If things
 >  seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.

This assumes that you know that you've just entered a no-win situation.  I
interpreted it as a normal simulation that they've done many times, but
this particular time, they threw in the K.M. twist.  In other words, the
point was not the strategy that she chose, but how she reacted to losing.
That's exactly what Kirk told her later.

Seems that if you invent alternate courses of action, you also have to
figure out how she would have lost.

					-- Mark A.
					...uw-beaver!ssc-vax!adolph

 "When a fly lands on the ceiling, does it do a half roll or a half loop?"

Article-I.D.: wjh12.560
Posted: Fri Apr  5 15:50:33 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 7-Apr-85 09:29:24 EST
Distribution: net
Organization: Harvard MicroWizards HQ
Lines: 27

Some shuttles DID have warp drive, or could have it installed.  This is
mentioned in _Spock Must Die_ (SMD/n?) and a couple of the Star Trek Logs.

And what's effective transporter range?  A messier solution would be to send
out a shuttle with warp drive and most of its seats torn out and replaced
with a cargo transporter.  Then they approach to minimum range, beam who they
can out, and warp the hell out of there!

There's also another possibility in a Star Trek Log; the Enterprise could
try deploying a decoy Excelsior (or dreadnought or whatever).  This should
give the Klingons pause (if the simulation is good enough), and might give
the Enterprise the time to warp away. (I think this is from "The Practical
Joker".)

And of course, there's my last offering.  The "Wounded Sky" method.  Maneuver
like a madman, forcing the Klingons to hold fire so they don't hit each other
(although it's no loss if they do).  Get into transporter range for the KM
at least briefly and beam what can be beamed out.  Then run.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:		G. T. Samson
ARPA:		gts@wjh12 [preferred] OR samson%h-sc4@harvard
USMail:		Lowell H-41, Harvard U., Cambridge, MA 02138
Quote:		"No matter where you go...there you are" -- B. Banzai
Other_Quote:	"You speak treason!"
		"Fluently!"  --- The Doctor

Article-I.D.: dartvax.2896
Posted: Fri Apr  5 23:36:16 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 7-Apr-85 10:17:48 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
Organization: Dartmouth College, Hanover, NH
Lines: 34

 >  
 >  	Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully)
 >  topic.  Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
 >  to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
 >  the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio.  (I know
 >  that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...)  For instance,
 >  why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
 >  to help the ship without endangering the entire crew.  If things
 >  seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.
 >  
 >  	Anyone else care to comment?
 >  
 >  
 >  Joe Barone,		{allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b
 >  Raytheon Co,		 Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI  02871

Could be a problem because:

a) Shuttles tend not be as fast as Starships.  The Kobayashi Maru could have
   gone poof while the shuttle putty-chugged out.
b) Shuttles look like they need some nice airy place to land.  If this ship
   was that trashed, the shuttle wouldn't have been able to disgorge it's
   medical technicians.
c) Operating in zero gravity, I would think, would be an incredible 
   horrorshow.  I also have my doubts as to how well the Medical Techs
   have been trained in zero-g operations.  Bones might be able to pull it
   off ("I'm a doctor, not a feather!"), but I don't know about the rest of
   the crowd.

Besides, from the look of Kobayashi Maru test, it was designed to fail.
In fact, Saavik almost did it.  They had to throw in another cruiser to
keep her from pulling it off.
--
"Damn!"  -- Saavik                        Peter Merchant

Article-I.D.: sdcc7.1388
Posted: Sun Apr  7 23:57:03 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 9-Apr-85 02:07:37 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <2896@dartvax.UUCP>
Reply-To: li63sdl@sdcc7.UUCP (David L. Smith)
Organization: U.C. San Diego, Academic Computer Center
Lines: 18

In article <2896@dartvax.UUCP> merchant@dartvax.UUCP (Peter Merchant) writes:
 > c) Operating in zero gravity, I would think, would be an incredible 
 >    horrorshow.  I also have my doubts as to how well the Medical Techs
 >    have been trained in zero-g operations.  Bones might be able to pull it
 >    off ("I'm a doctor, not a feather!"), but I don't know about the rest of
 >    the crowd.
 > --
 > "Damn!"  -- Saavik                        Peter Merchant

    Star Fleet medical techs would *HAVE* to be trained to cope with
zero-g.  They are (at least partially) a military force and
a battle is always a worse case scenario.  It's highly likely that
the gravity generators or what nots (I've never seen a discussion of
those anywhere) would be damaged during a battle.  Therefore they'd
*better* be trained to work in zero-g.

			  David L. Smith
			  sdcc7!li63sdl

Article-I.D.: acf4.1660008
Posted: Sun Apr  7 20:45:00 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 9-Apr-85 03:21:44 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
Organization: New York University
Lines: 17

GT:  Amazing!  I was about to suggest SMD but I was afraid that it would
have been too trekkie-nerdie!  How silly of me!  (I remember someone saying
something like "The shuttle just went into warp drive" and Kirk saying
that none of the shuttles had warp drive (I was a LONG LONG time ago that
I read the book, and I never really did understand it))

Here's an extension of the shuttle idea you suggested.  Instead of just
one shuttle, send 'em all out, each with a transporter.  Just relay the
people over like a bucket brigade.

Whoops, how many shuttles did the enterprise have besides the Galileo and
the Columbus?

Furthermore, I used to have the Enterprise blueprints and they indicate
that there are onlyt four transporter rooms on the enterprise.  (Although
there are emergency large-capacity transporters on deck 10 or 11.)  Scotty
might be hard-pressed for parts.

Article-I.D.: rayssd.684
Posted: Tue Apr  9 12:21:20 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 11-Apr-85 03:56:30 EST
Organization: Raytheon Co., Portsmouth RI
Lines: 42


	This is a response to my original posting.  Keep in mind
that I am not the originator.  Mail to deneb:ccrdave rather than
using 'r'.

Date: Fri, 5 Apr 85 19:05:38 pst
From: allegra!gamma!sabre!decvax!ucbvax!ucdavis!deneb:ccrdave (Lord Kahless)
Message-Id: <8504060305.AA00229@deneb.DAVIS>
To: ucbvax!decvax!bellcore!sabre!zeta!epsilon!gamma!ulysses!allegra!rayssd!m1b
Subject: Re: Kobayashi Maru
In-Reply-To: your article <682@rayssd.UUCP>

We can't post anything yet, so could you post this for me?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
 >  
 >  	Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully)
 >  topic.  Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
 >  to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
 >  the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio.  (I know
 >  that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...)  For instance,
 >  why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
 >  to help the ship without endangering the entire crew.  If things
 >  seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.
 >  
 >  	Anyone else care to comment?
 >  
 >  
 >  Joe Barone,		{allegra, decvax!brunix, linus, ccice5}!rayssd!m1b
 >  Raytheon Co,		 Submarine Signal Div., Portsmouth, RI  02871

1)  To enter the neutral zone was an act of war.  The Enterprise had
no business being there.  The Kobiyashi Maru had no business being there.
2)  Why didn't they sit on the border and use long range scanners to
peek at what was going on?
3)  Why did Kirk say Klingons never take prisoners?  In Elaan of
Troyius, the Klingon commander requested the surrender of the
Enterprise?  In Day of the Dove, Kirk and the landing party was
captured by Kang's party.

		Lord Kahless, Founder of the Klingon Empire
		Now studying at U.C. Davis
		Computer Center, U.C. Davis, CA, 95617

Article-I.D.: moncol.253
Posted: Thu Apr 11 09:31:04 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 13-Apr-85 03:25:46 EST
References: <1660008@acf4.UUCP>
Organization: Monmouth College, West Long Branch, NJ 07764
Lines: 44

 > From: hkr4627@acf4.UUCP (Hedley K. J. Rainnie)
 > Message-ID: <1660008@acf4.UUCP>
 > 
 > GT:  Amazing!  I was about to suggest SMD but I was afraid that it would
 > have been too trekkie-nerdie!  How silly of me!  (I remember someone saying
 > something like "The shuttle just went into warp drive" and Kirk saying
 > that none of the shuttles had warp drive (I was a LONG LONG time ago that
 > I read the book, and I never really did understand it))

In SPOCK MUST DIE, the replicate Spock specially modifies a standard
shuttle so as to allow it to have a warp dirve. As I recall, it was an odd
procedure that did not use matter and antimatter. (I think it might have
used interstellar hydrogen.)

 > Here's an extension of the shuttle idea you suggested.  Instead of just
 > one shuttle, send 'em all out, each with a transporter.  Just relay the
 > people over like a bucket brigade.
 > 
 > Whoops, how many shuttles did the enterprise have besides the Galileo and
 > the Columbus?

Even so, given the range and reliability of a transporter, would *you* want
to have your atoms scattered that many times over that long a distance.
Besides, just given the reliability of the transporter, one good shot from
a baddie and one or more links in the chain would be broken.

 > Furthermore, I used to have the Enterprise blueprints and they indicate
 > that there are onlyt four transporter rooms on the enterprise.  (Although
 > there are emergency large-capacity transporters on deck 10 or 11.)  Scotty
 > might be hard-pressed for parts.

According to the blueprints, there are four "standard" (as seen on TV)
transporter rooms in the saucer section. There are three mass transporters
(capacity something like 36) on the lower decks and two or three cargo
transporters. (As I recall from SPOCK MESSAIH, you don't want to be beamed
up in one of the latter.)
-- 
Name:		John Ruschmeyer
US Mail:	Monmouth College, W. Long Branch, NJ 07764
Phone:		(201) 222-6600 x366
UUCP:		...!vax135!petsd!moncol!john	...!princeton!moncol!john
						   ...!pesnta!moncol!john
Silly Quote:
		"Ah, but what is a dream but reality without a backbone?"

Article-I.D.: psivax.393
Posted: Thu Apr 11 15:53:58 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 14-Apr-85 02:35:40 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <247@moncol.UUCP>
Reply-To: friesen@psivax.UUCP (Stanley friesen)
Organization: Pacesetter Systems Inc., Sylmar, CA
Lines: 33
Summary: 

In article <247@moncol.UUCP> john@moncol.UUCP (John Ruschmeyer) writes:
 >> From: m1b@rayssd.UUCP
 >> Message-ID: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
 >> 
 >> 	Hope no one minds if I try to introduce a new (hopefully)
 >> topic.  Having just watched STII for the umpteenth time, I started
 >> to formulate alternative actions that Saavik (or whoever was taking
 >> the test) could have taken in the Kobayashi Maru Scenerio.  (I know
 >> that it is a no win situation, but why not suppose...)  For instance,
 >> why not load all the shuttles with medical and engineering personnel
 >> to help the ship without endangering the entire crew.  If things
 >> seemed kosher, the Enterprise could then follow.
 > 
 > Also, if you load them with crew and supplies, what do you do if you have
 > to evacuate the ship in a hurry? (runaway matter/antimatter reaction,
 > radiation, etc.)
 > 
 > Lastly, suppose things aren't kosher (remember they weren't in the movie).
 > You've just wasted several shuttles and valuable personnel. Now what? Do
 > you go in anyway to rescue everyone? Leave them to die? Use the Guardian of
 > Forever?
 > 
	Not only that, but if you lose the shuttle craft, you have
lost the most important part of your crew, *engineering* and
*medical*, not to mention all the supplies. Then there is *still*
the problem of rescuing the Kobayashi Maru, without technical
support!
-- 

				Sarima (Stanley Friesen)

{trwrb|allegra|cbosgd|hplabs|ihnp4|aero!uscvax!akgua}!sdcrdcf!psivax!friesen
or {ttdica|quad1|bellcore|scgvaxd}!psivax!friesen

Article-I.D.: t12tst.310
Posted: Fri Apr 12 13:24:12 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 14-Apr-85 03:59:47 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP>
Organization: Intel Microprocessor Mfg, Santa Clara
Lines: 14


	    Why not try something like the corbamite trick that
	    Kirk played on the romulans?  

	    The shuttle craft idea, I'm sorry to say, really isn't 
	    that good of an idea.  As well as the range, and speed
	    problems mentioned in other articles, I don't recall the
	    shuttle crafts having a very good (if any) ability to protect
	    themselves.  


		-C. Paull

"Aye, Sir"

Article-I.D.: nmtvax.421
Posted: Wed Apr 17 19:20:46 1985
Date-Received: Mon, 22-Apr-85 06:43:14 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <>
Reply-To: guads@nmtvax.UUCP (Steven Lautzenheiser)
Organization: New Mexico Tech, Socorro
Lines: 16
Summary: 

In article <> chris@t12tst.UUCP (Christopher Paull) writes:
 > 
 > 	    Why not try something like the corbamite trick that
 > 	    Kirk played on the romulans?  
 > 
 > 		-C. Paull

   Arggghh!  Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he 
played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked
like a baby.  (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.)

-- 

                                -Lautzy (Romulan)

"Herbert, you are STIFF!"...

Article-I.D.: whuxlm.749
Posted: Wed Apr 24 18:40:11 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 25-Apr-85 04:26:51 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <> <421@nmtvax.UUCP>
Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Whippany
Lines: 22

 >  In article <> chris@t12tst.UUCP (Christopher Paull) writes:
 >> 
 >> 	    Why not try something like the corbamite trick that
 >> 	    Kirk played on the romulans?  
 >> 
 >> 		-C. Paull
 >  
 >     Arggghh!  Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he 
 >  played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked
 >  like a baby.  (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.)
 >  
 >  -- 
 >  
 >                                  -Lautzy (Romulan)
 >  
 >  "Herbert, you are STIFF!"...

You are half right.  He did play it on the big blinking-light ship,
(The Corbomite Maneuver) but then played it on the Romulans in
"The Deadly Years".

Bill Stoll, ..!whuxlm!wws

Article-I.D.: petfe.234
Posted: Wed Apr 24 13:26:05 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 25-Apr-85 07:41:40 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <>, <421@nmtvax.UUCP>
Organization: Perkin-Elmer DSG, Tinton Falls, N.J.
Lines: 18

Regarding the Corbomite bluff, it was done twice, once was against the 
Romulans.  In the deadly years, when the commodore had taken over the
helm, as Kirk and party were senile, he got the ship surrounded by
Romulans.  Just in the nick of time, Kirk reappeared on the Bridge,
and, using Code 2, the Code the Romulans had broken, told them about
the Corbomite capability.

The other time it was done against the kid who played along side Gentle 
Ben on the epic old show.  (Now seen in reruns on CBN.)

--Evan Marcus

-- 

{ucbvax|decvax}|vax135|petsd|pedsgd|pedsga|evan

There are two kinds of people in the world, those who divide people into two
kinds, and those who don't.

Article-I.D.: wudma.248
Posted: Wed Apr 24 22:10:26 1985
Date-Received: Thu, 25-Apr-85 08:34:36 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <> <421@nmtvax.UUCP>
Organization: Washington U. in St. Louis, CS Dept. DMA Project
Lines: 18

 >> 
 >> 	    Why not try something like the corbamite trick that
 >> 	    Kirk played on the romulans?  
 >  
 >     Arggghh!  Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he 
 >  played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked
 >  like a baby.  (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.)

	Okay, Kirk first used the corbomite bluff on Balok, captain of
	the First Federation ship in The Corbomite Maneuver.  *However*,
	he *also* used it in The Deadly Years to get some Romulans to
	back off far enough so that the Enterprise could make a break
	for it.
						--pH
/*
 *	"Pardon me for breathing, which I don't do anyway so I don't
 *	know why I bother apologising for it, oh GOD I'm so depressed."
 */

Article-I.D.: fred.107
Posted: Tue Apr 23 00:03:13 1985
Date-Received: Fri, 26-Apr-85 06:22:48 EST
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <> <421@nmtvax.UUCP>
Organization: NBI,Inc, Boulder CO
Lines: 9

 >     Arggghh!  Kirk didn't play the corbomite (sp!) trick on the Romulans; he 
 >  played it on the captain of that enormous blinking-light ship who looked
 >  like a baby.  (I don't remember the race's name, or if they even said.)

But didn't Kirk use this trick again against the Romulans? It was at
the very end of the episode that had all the officers very old. Kirk
was rejuvenated with andrinolin(?) and emerged on the bridge in time
to escape a nasty neutral zone situation created by some paper-pusher
from starfleet.

Article-I.D.: bgsuvax.381
Posted: Sat Apr 27 16:01:03 1985
Date-Received: Sun, 28-Apr-85 23:27:03 EDT
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <> <421@nmtvax.UUCP>, <107@fred.UUCP>
Organization: Bowling Green State University, OH
Lines: 5


This probably shouldn't have Kobyashi Maru as a subject , but this
chain of messages started out with using the corbomite bluff in the 
K. Maru test.  Somehow it got into "The Deadly Years" and the hormone
was adrenaline. Yep, just plain and simple human produced adrenaline.

Article-I.D.: t12tst.328
Posted: Sun Apr 28 20:13:42 1985
Date-Received: Tue, 30-Apr-85 03:48:30 EDT
References: <682@rayssd.UUCP> <> <421@nmtvax.UUCP>
Organization: Intel Microprocessor Mfg, Santa Clara
Lines: 16


  My apologies.  However the show where Kirk and others are affected by
  some mysterious disease.  (I don't remember the title) They become
  old and Kirk loses his ability to command.  I seem to remember that 
  the romulans had broken code 2.  When Bones finally finds the cure the
  enterprise is surrounded by Romulans.  I do Believe Kirk sends 
  starfleet a message, using code 2, saying that he is in a hopeless
  situation and he is going to self destruct using some new device
  which will destroy any thing within a particular range leaving 
  that area of space unuseable for some odd number of years.  When the
  Romulans back off they give Kirk enough room to warp away to safety.

  Once again I apologize if I'm wrong and this device is not the
  corbomite device.  This however was the solution I was proposing.

  By the way, What was this self destructing mechanism.