| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129495 is a reply to message #129476] |
Tue, 11 October 2005 21:24   |
Jim Brain
Messages: 962
Registered: August 2012
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christianlott1 wrote:
> Would you have gotten as offended if I called Qlink a wannabe AOL?
Much less offended. It's an opinion on a program, not an attack on a
person.
> OK. Sorry. I sometimes think you're trying to be overly specific in an
> attempt to test/intimidate. Same with Martijn.
You called me a tard. I reacted to the specific statement.
Jim
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations
brain@jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129510 is a reply to message #129453] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 03:39 |
MagerValp
Messages: 847
Registered: April 2012
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>>>> > "JB" == Jim Brain <brain@jbrain.com> writes:
JB> I, along with Martin, believe the cabling is a huge issue. I was
JB> thinking solely of MTBF, but Martin brings up a very valid point
JB> that the flex of the cable cannot affect the travel of the key.
JB> Plus, the spring of the key will be need to increase its 'K' value
JB> to compensate for the extra weight of the display and related
JB> electronics and still feel the same to the user. The last is not a
JB> huge issue, but I am sure there are others.
Well here's a crazy thought: why not use 4 springs for every key cap,
and use the springs themselves as power and signal paths? I still
think the design is cost prohibitive, and as you pointed out the
corporate world couldn't care less, but it would be a really neat
keyboard for us emulator users. Not that I'd ever want to give up my
Model M though.
--
___ . . . . . + . . o
_|___|_ + . + . + . Per Olofsson, arkadspelare
o-o . . . o + MagerValp@cling.gu.se
- + + . http://www.cling.gu.se/~cl3polof/
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129512 is a reply to message #129472] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 03:45 |
Dr. Thomas Radtke
Messages: 28
Registered: January 2005
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Hi Jim,
Jim Brain schrieb:
> Whoa! We are not done yet. We've got the image for all the keys
> onto the keyboard circuit board in RAM, but now we need to get the
> little images onto the actual screens on the keycaps. How do we
> do that?
How about this on:
http://people.freenet.de/thradtke/thingonspring.jpg
It's just a quick little sketch, the usual stuff is missing here.
Springs are soldered to the PCB. On top of the PCB a plastic cover w/
all neccessary shafts. Keytop w/ electronics (shift register or whatever
is needed) and carbon foam in the keytop shafts to get contact to the
springs. Of course, the spring construction limits the usable
frequencies but it's an idea isn't it:)
Thomas
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129513 is a reply to message #129510] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 03:48 |
Dr. Thomas Radtke
Messages: 28
Registered: January 2005
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MagerValp schrieb:
> Well here's a crazy thought: why not use 4 springs for every key cap,
> and use the springs themselves as power and signal paths? I still
> think the design is cost prohibitive, and as you pointed out the
> corporate world couldn't care less, but it would be a really neat
> keyboard for us emulator users. Not that I'd ever want to give up my
> Model M though.
Darn, you were just a few minutes earlier. But hey, I can deliver a
sketch (see my other post:).
Thomas
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129526 is a reply to message #129336] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 05:44 |
Guy Macon
Messages: 277
Registered: January 2005
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MagerValp wrote:
> ...the corporate world couldn't care less...
The *US* corporate world couldn't care less, but the
*Japanese* corporate world might be very interested
indeed!
I can see it now; a future Microsoft security hole allows
malicious webpages to load scrolling ads on your F keys...
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129528 is a reply to message #129510] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 06:03 |
Martijn van Buul
Messages: 326
Registered: December 2011
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It occurred to me that MagerValp wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
> Well here's a crazy thought: why not use 4 springs for every key cap,
> and use the springs themselves as power and signal paths?
Might work. I'm a bit worried about the reliablity though. Another solution
would be using a magnetic coupling, with the signal modulated on top of the
power carrier wave. Doable indeed. But expensive.
--
Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' Isaac Asimov
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129529 is a reply to message #129467] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 06:15 |
Martijn van Buul
Messages: 326
Registered: December 2011
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It occurred to me that christianlott1 wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
> I was just going to let this pass because obviously Jim and Martijn are
> extremely dense
[..]
> You guys are completely dense.
[..]
> You guys are a bunch of tards.
EOD.
--
Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' Isaac Asimov
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129569 is a reply to message #129336] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 15:00 |
a7yvm109gf5d1
Messages: 398
Registered: February 2005
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Only 10 weeks left! Why don't you fly to Russia and show them how it's
done?
Here's my idea, you don't need any cabling at all to any of the keys.
You just put a solar cell on top of every key, and use wifi to transmit
the picture.
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129613 is a reply to message #129526] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 22:13 |
Sam Gillett
Messages: 2422
Registered: June 2003
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"Guy Macon" wrote ...
>
> I can see it now; a future Microsoft security hole allows
> malicious webpages to load scrolling ads on your F keys...
Eeeyow!! That hurts! SPAM on my keyboard...
P.S. Sorry about trimming the other group. The news server I use would not
accept it.
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129614 is a reply to message #129419] |
Wed, 12 October 2005 22:13 |
Sam Gillett
Messages: 2422
Registered: June 2003
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"christianlott1" wrote ...
>
> All this pessimism is really right in line with what I've come to
> expect from the self pronounced 'leaders' of the CSC community.
Quit using misleading labels. What you are calling "pessimism" when labeled
correctly is "realism". The general consensus is that while your keyboard IS
technologically possible to produce it would NOT be affordable to the average
user. And perhaps a budget straining item to even the very well heeled user.
Well, OK... Bill Gates could afford one...
It is also agreed that such a keyboard will become affordable at some point
in the future. What the group is trying to tell you is simple, do not look
for one at your local computer store anytime soon. What part of that are you
unable to understand?
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129619 is a reply to message #129526] |
Thu, 13 October 2005 00:40 |
Sam Gillett
Messages: 2422
Registered: June 2003
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Guy Macon" wrote ...
>
> I can see it now; a future Microsoft security hole allows
> malicious webpages to load scrolling ads on your F keys...
Eeeyow!! That hurts! SPAM on my keyboard...
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Change is inevitable,
except from vending machines!
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129708 is a reply to message #129453] |
Thu, 13 October 2005 21:44 |
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Originally posted by: Russell Wallace
Jim Brain wrote:
> I, along with Martin, believe the cabling is a huge issue. I was
> thinking solely of MTBF, but Martin brings up a very valid point that
> the flex of the cable cannot affect the travel of the key. Plus, the
> spring of the key will be need to increase its 'K' value to compensate
> for the extra weight of the display and related electronics and still
> feel the same to the user. The last is not a huge issue, but I am sure
> there are others.
Christian actually suggested a solution to this, though volume of text
wise it was swamped by all the insults he was tossing, so I don't blame
you for not noticing it :)
The screen isn't in the keycap, but on top of the key _base_. It doesn't
move at all, it and its associated wiring are fixed in place. The keycap
is just a hollow, transparent plastic shell. (i.e. when the key isn't
pressed, there's a few millimeters of space between the keycap and the
screen.)
I could see Japan and China being big markets for this, if the costs can
be reduced to something reasonable.
--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129715 is a reply to message #129708] |
Thu, 13 October 2005 23:10 |
Jim Brain
Messages: 962
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Russell Wallace wrote:
> Christian actually suggested a solution to this, though volume of text
> wise it was swamped by all the insults he was tossing, so I don't blame
> you for not noticing it :)
I saw the suggestion, and I had reservations, but I decided it was not
worth the effort to note them. In the end, I agree with CL that it
would be a nice keyboard, and I would desire one. My only input was to
bring attention to Martjin's concern over the complexities of making it
happen, so people don't get too upset if it takes a while for them to
get it to market.
Jim
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations
brain@jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129720 is a reply to message #129715] |
Fri, 14 October 2005 01:02 |
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Originally posted by: Russell Wallace
Jim Brain wrote:
> I saw the suggestion, and I had reservations, but I decided it was not
> worth the effort to note them. In the end, I agree with CL that it
> would be a nice keyboard, and I would desire one. My only input was to
> bring attention to Martjin's concern over the complexities of making it
> happen, so people don't get too upset if it takes a while for them to
> get it to market.
Yeah, there can be hiccups between "technically feasible" and
"successfully brought to market", and it's hard to predict in advance
how many. (I'm not personally in the market for this keyboard, but I
like seeing cool technology succeed, so I wish them luck.)
--
"Always look on the bright side of life."
To reply by email, replace no.spam with my last name.
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129808 is a reply to message #129373] |
Fri, 14 October 2005 16:06 |
rick balkins[1][2]
Messages: 704
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Won't those USB to PS/2 adapters for keyboards work. Usually comes in a
purple color than the green version. Though the BIG question is - how would
you "program it" ?
Though a version that is design to use the PS/2 bus - sounds interesting but
PS/2 is prominently configured for input only whereas USB is designed to be
bi-directional and purposely so. I would HIGHLY recommend a PC-KEYB/USB (a
hypothetical USB version of PC-KEYB) which would be really cool. Actually we
would simply call that a USB card for the C64.
"Stealth" <protostealth@*spamblocker*hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:dicahp$idl$1@ss405.t-com.hr...
> Thus spoke Riccardo Rubini:
>> Well, Chris, nice found. A reconfigurable keyboard, such as this,
>> makes a perfect match with emulators. I am actually quite astonished
>> by the endless possibilities at your fingertips, with such a thing.
>> Imagine using it with VICE or WinUAE. Who needs a C64 or an Amiga
>> keyboard anymore?
>
> Let's just hope it comes in a PS/2 form factor so we'd be able to use it
> with PC-KEYB without having to devise a USB converter.
>
>
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129821 is a reply to message #129381] |
Fri, 14 October 2005 16:27 |
rick balkins[1][2]
Messages: 704
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Martijn van Buul" <pino@dohd.org> wrote in message
news:slrndkklv3.16mo.pino@mud.stack.nl...
> It occurred to me that Dr. Thomas Radtke wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
>> I hope there's a working prototype and not only these nice renderings on
>> their page.
>
> On the other hand, the whole "development team" consists of
>
> * An art director and designer
> * A "laying on of hands", whatever that might be.
> * A modeller
> * A visualiser
> * An assistant.
>
> I'm really missing a "techie" in here. Someone with a soldering iron. This
> is a mock-up. A neat "hey we don't even have a glimpse of idea what it
> takes to do this, but wouldn't it look great?".
>
> It's an ART STUDIO, dammit, not a hardware manufacturer. You can expect
> this to be the last thing to be heard from regarding this keyboard.
Actually there are REAL LED Keyboard in which the keytops are made of LEDs
and yes it is FROM a hardware developer NOT some artist rendering. I'll have
to look up the link. The concept is VERY possible but we need to make real
LED keys small enough for the key format. I'll have to find the link BUT one
thing to keep in mind that the studio may have "designed" it but they might
have did some sort of partnership with a keyboard manuafacturer to work out
the hardware because the design is cool but the keyboard would clearly be
made by a company with experience in keyboard manufacturing and electronics
and thusly would not be fitting as the team who came up with the
design/concept and idea.
Although it doesn't appear to be the same one that I recall - it does
present the same kind of stuff. Here is a link:
http://www.screenkeys.com/index.html
Though this is more a combo of LCD technology and LED backlighting using RGB
LED (LED supporting Red, Green and Blue outputting. I suppose it is really a
set of triplets of LEDs of red, green and blue and by controlling
intensity - you can control the backlighting.
For correction to people - the Optimus that you guys are looking at would be
done with OLED (Organic Light Emitting Diode) technology as it is the ONLY
real world way of making the keys out of some form of LED technology - with
ANY ease and with such resolution. Otherwise it would be LCD.
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129823 is a reply to message #129336] |
Fri, 14 October 2005 16:45 |
rick balkins[1][2]
Messages: 704
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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They are an Industrial Design Studio. They are the kind of people you hire
to design the OVERALL look of a product. But product manufacturing takes
SEVERAL teams. One team is the people who design the actual hardware itself
and thusly may buy some components (in this case the OLED keys - provide
there is a manufacturer of OLED keys). Then the hardware designer will have
to design the circuit layout BUT it takes Product Artists (or a studio of
Industrial Design Artists designing products to design the overall look of
the product. YOU the hardware engineer will have to provide models of you
circuit boards and components that make up the unit.
A case study - is the DTV. Jeri designed the hardware but am not sure if she
designed the OVERALL product look. One usually must assume a creative
product design artist designs the overall look of the product that Jeri was
to design the circuit for and get it to fit within the size profile that is
specified by the whole team.
In business, it is hardly EVER a one man show. Therefore, you are not going
to expect all the work done to be done solely by one person. To be honest,
most hardware engineers ARE sucky in the creative design process of the
whole product. This is usually left upto an product design artist (artists
majoring in industrial design graphics).
"christianlott1" <christianlott1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1128830676.382506.145720@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Under the 'answers' section it says 'for the price of a good cell
> phone'.
>
> http://www.artlebedev.com/portfolio/optimus/
>
>
> It's P E R F E C T !
>
>
>
>
>
> Christian
>
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #129831 is a reply to message #129823] |
Fri, 14 October 2005 18:10 |
christianlott1
Messages: 1852
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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As for the perfect keyboard, I'd also like a few dials (maybe two at
the top right - the ones that fall into increments, not the smooth
turning pots like the paddles).
Which brings us to... where to put the trackball/mouse. Some swear by
the miniature track point which is set in the centre of the keyboard
but I've never used these. Another option is a small ball above the
cursor keys.
Again, sorry about the insults earlier.
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130041 is a reply to message #129808] |
Sat, 15 October 2005 06:15 |
Guy Macon
Messages: 277
Registered: January 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Rick Balkins wrote:
> Won't those USB to PS/2 adapters for keyboards work. Usually comes in a
> purple color than the green version. Though the BIG question is - how would
> you "program it" ?
Those adapters don't have any electronics in them - just wiring.
The trick is that we engineers programmed the microcontrollers
inside the mice, etc. to detect whether they are plugged into a
PS/2 or USB port and to respond properly in both cases.
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130047 is a reply to message #130041] |
Sat, 15 October 2005 07:23 |
christianlott1
Messages: 1852
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scratch my earlier idea about the dials on the keyboard. This would be
much better suited to a dedicated device with some extra oversized lcd
keyes and a standard array number pad configuration (maybe lcd too).
Another trackball might be handy here as well.
Christian
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130048 is a reply to message #130041] |
Sat, 15 October 2005 07:27 |
christianlott1
Messages: 1852
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Scratch my earlier idea about the dials on the keyboard. This would be
much better suited to a dedicated device with some extra oversized lcd
keyes and a standard array number pad configuration (maybe lcd too).
Another trackball might be handy here as well.
That's it! The number pad array can be seperated or joined to the
keyboard (dials, function keyes and trackball included).
A plastic groove that you slide it into which snaps into place.
Christian
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130058 is a reply to message #129715] |
Sat, 15 October 2005 12:42 |
Martijn van Buul
Messages: 326
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It occurred to me that Jim Brain wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
> Martjin's
Blame my parents! My (american) girlfriend still can't pronounce it properly,
after more than 2 years...
--
Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' Isaac Asimov
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130142 is a reply to message #129526] |
Sat, 15 October 2005 20:57 |
BlackJack
Messages: 152
Registered: December 2004
Karma: 0
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On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 03:44:36 -0600, Guy Macon wrote:
>> ...the corporate world couldn't care less...
>
> The *US* corporate world couldn't care less, but the
> *Japanese* corporate world might be very interested
> indeed!
>
> I can see it now; a future Microsoft security hole allows
> malicious webpages to load scrolling ads on your F keys...
This makes me think of a cool feature: "screen" savers for the keyboard. :-)
And if we got that wiring issue solved, the next step would be an OpenGL
driver for each keycap. =:o)
Ciao,
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130155 is a reply to message #130058] |
Sat, 15 October 2005 23:29 |
Jim Brain
Messages: 962
Registered: August 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Martijn van Buul wrote:
> It occurred to me that Jim Brain wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
>
>> Martjin's
>
>
> Blame my parents! My (american) girlfriend still can't pronounce it properly,
> after more than 2 years...
>
Wow! My apologies. I remembered there was a 'j' in there, but I even
looked at an old post and still messed it up.
Should I blame them? Is that a normal spelling in your native country?
Jim
--
Jim Brain, Brain Innovations
brain@jbrain.com http://www.jbrain.com
Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times!
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130215 is a reply to message #130155] |
Sun, 16 October 2005 07:45 |
Martijn van Buul
Messages: 326
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It occurred to me that Jim Brain wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
>
> Wow! My apologies.
That's ok - I know it's a confusing thing for non Dutch speaking people..
> I remembered there was a 'j' in there, but I even looked at an old post and
> still messed it up.
My aforementioned girlfriend is convinced that we Dutch people have a nasty
habit of sneaking in random j's in about every word. I've tried counteracting
with the observation that there's hardly more J's in Dutch than there are
Y's in English, but so far I haven't won that argument.
Yet. She's going to learn Dutch at some point :D
> Should I blame them?
Insofar that they chose a "typically Dutch" name, which inherently means
that it's unpronounceable (and unspelleable) for non-Dutch people: Yes..
The problem arises from the fact that most people see it as "an i followed
by a j", and try to pronounce it as such - but it's actually a single vowel
(see below).
> Is that a normal spelling in your native country?
It is. The i and j actually form a single letter in the Dutch alphabet, which
is very unsupported by most computer systems. When capitalised, it becomes IJ,
not Ij, and no, it's not an y-with-an-umlaut (ÿ in HTMLese). 'ij' is the
recommended form, even though there is a (correct) Unicode character for it
these days.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IJ_(letter) for details.
Martijn.
--
Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' Isaac Asimov
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| Re: LED Keyboard by 2006 [message #130218 is a reply to message #130156] |
Sun, 16 October 2005 08:24 |
Martijn van Buul
Messages: 326
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It occurred to me that Cameron Kaiser wrote in comp.sys.cbm:
> Martijn van Buul <pino@dohd.org> writes:
>
>>> Martjin's [sic]
>
>> Blame my parents! My (american) girlfriend still can't pronounce it properly,
>> after more than 2 years...
>
> Didn't you have an audio file of it on your web page? ... yup, you do.
Ah, you mean the bit of cruft that I haven't updated in at _least_ 5 years? :)
--
Martijn van Buul - pino@dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
Geek code: G-- - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny ...' Isaac Asimov
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