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Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411387 is a reply to message #411374] Wed, 29 September 2021 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5048
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2021-09-29, Charles Richmond <codescott@aquaporin4.com> wrote:

> On 9/28/2021 8:09 AM, Questor wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:58:58 +0100, gareth evans
>> <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Netiquette is not etiquette.
>>
>> It certainly is. It is a branch of etiquette that deals specifically
>> with online communications.
>>
>
> [... quoted material omitted ...]
>
>> Layout matters, viz:
>>
>> https://keepmeme.com/meme/you-matter-dont-give-up-or-you-don t-matter-give-up
>>
>> Every so often some pedant comes along and advances the argument
>> that some part of estabilished etiquette, for example, shop clerks
>> asking "how are you" or wishing you a nice day -- to say nothing of
>> "please" and "thank you" -- are superfluous and unnecessary because
>> they convey no information and are just some outdated, arbitrary
>> convention, and thus can be discarded. They ignore that, among
>> other things, these phrases actually provide useful functions: they
>> can reveal intentions, set expectations, and generally establish a
>> framework for successful transactions between strangers. You might
>> think of them as verbal lubricant, or liken them to a computer
>> protocol that allows two hetrogeneous computers to exchange data.
>> Be it place settings, wedding invitations, or some other etiquette
>> matter, the same tired arguments regarding their irrelevance are
>> made periodically, and same valid refutations are made in return.
>>
>> And so it is with netiquette, and most frequently, the top/bottom
>> posting issue. That horse is long dead, beaten into a grease spot,
>> and even the bones are turning to dust. The overwhelming consensus
>> is that bottom posting and judicious trimming of long posts is the
>> proper course. Exceptions are rare, and continued top posting marks
>> one as a newbie or a self-declared iconoclast who thinks they are
>> championing reason, freedom, or some other abstraction. But they
>> are just ignorant, or being selfish and childish. They tilt at
>> windmills in their mind.
>
> Is there an RFC somewhere that discusses all this???

RFC 1855 is a good start.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1855

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Life is perverse.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | It can be beautiful -
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | but it won't.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Lily Tomlin
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411394 is a reply to message #411307] Wed, 29 September 2021 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joy Beeson is currently offline  Joy Beeson
Messages: 156
Registered: June 2012
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Senior Member
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 09:58:58 +0100, gareth evans
<headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Perhaps those who take offence so easily over
> such a trivial matter were the prototype
> woke generation?

Oh, I don't take offence. It's just that if you can't be bothered to
write, I can't be bothered to read.


--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411400 is a reply to message #411300] Thu, 30 September 2021 04:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: gareth evans

It never ceases to amaze me that in a forum for (presumably)
computer experts, who must receive, read, accept, understand and
reply to, emails where top posting is the norm, then have an
emotional reaction against top-posting in this forum.

An open mind for the rest of the World but a closed narrow
mind in this forum? How very strange!

On 29/09/2021 23:10, Dave Garland wrote:
> On 9/28/2021 1:18 AM, Charles Richmond wrote:
>
>> Historically (and probably now), the members of a group decide who
>> should be allowed to post. Each person's newsreader software allowed a
>> list of addresses to be maintained... and would automatically discard
>> messages from that address. If the majority of members of a group had
>> your address on their "discard" list, effectively you were kept out.
>
> On a.f.c. it seems equally to have been a matter of social pressure
> involving attempted correction, giving way to (or sometimes replaced by)
> rude replies. Most transgressors mend their way, or go away. A few
> combative ones remain and get blocked. In spades, as one sometimes said.
>
>>
>> (There is a name for that "discard" list... but I can not remember it
>> now...)
>
> Kill file
>>
>> Some "official" groups (not "alt.*" groups) are moderated by an
>> "admin", and you have to be officially admitted to the group by that
>> admin.
>>
>>
>
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411401 is a reply to message #411400] Thu, 30 September 2021 05:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Senior Member
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:41:33 +0100
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It never ceases to amaze me that in a forum for (presumably)

It never ceases to amaze me that there are some people who for no
good reason lack the common courtesy to follow the conventions of the group.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411402 is a reply to message #411401] Thu, 30 September 2021 05:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Harry Vaderchi is currently offline  Harry Vaderchi
Messages: 608
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 10:22:44 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:41:33 +0100
> gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> It never ceases to amaze me that in a forum for (presumably)
>
> It never ceases to amaze me that there are some people who
> for no good reason lack the common courtesy to follow the conventions
> of the group.
>
He's trolling for a flame-war, best to let it go.
Unless you really want to; in which case please go play over in alt.flame, alt.usenet.kooks or uk.legal or uk.radio-amateur where they love that kind of thing.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411411 is a reply to message #411400] Thu, 30 September 2021 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3945
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
gareth evans <headstone255@yahoo.com> writes:
> It never ceases to amaze me that in a forum for (presumably)
> computer experts, who must receive, read, accept, understand and
> reply to, emails where top posting is the norm

Facts not in evidence. One doesn't need to top post even
when using that horrible application called Outlook.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411415 is a reply to message #411400] Thu, 30 September 2021 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
D.J. is currently offline  D.J.
Messages: 591
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 09:41:33 +0100, gareth evans
<headstone255@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It never ceases to amaze me that in a forum for (presumably)
> computer experts, who must receive, read, accept, understand and
> reply to, emails where top posting is the norm, then have an
> emotional reaction against top-posting in this forum.
>
> An open mind for the rest of the World but a closed narrow
> mind in this forum? How very strange!

if you had an open mind, you wouldn't top post.
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411439 is a reply to message #411411] Thu, 30 September 2021 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: David Lesher

scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:


> Facts not in evidence. One doesn't need to top post even
> when using that horrible application called Outlook.

I think you have it wrong, it's "Look Out" as you'd best look
out if you see it coming....

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433
Re: Top or bottom posting; does it really matter? [message #411440 is a reply to message #411376] Fri, 01 October 2021 00:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 9/29/21 12:03 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:

> Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
> thread to "alt.flamewar"???  :-)   Some of this is starting to singe my
> computer screen!   ;-)
>
> Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
> too.  At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
> alt.computers.folklore.   :-)  I hope...

What does political nonsense have to do with this hierarchy? And why do
otherwise intelligent people seem to have an off switch on their brain
when it comes to grinding political axes? Everyone today is delusional.
Left, right, center, it doesn't matter--they're all slinging woo.

Political and religious ideologies are the ideas of your OPPRESSORS.
Elections and their ancillary politics are a sh!t show designed by the
ruling class to make you think you had a choice in who taxes and robs
you and your neighbors. Religion is a racket to scare you into obedience
to your oppressors, with a healthy profit to the prophets for keeping
the sheep in line for the slaughterhouse.

Liberalism, wokeism, cultural marxism, neo-conservatism, libertarianism,
evangelical dominionism, charismatic christianism, catholicism, racism,
anti-racism, islamism, judaism, buddhism, communism, nazism, yada, yada,
etcetera and ad nauseum are ideologies carefully manufactured over the
ages in Babylonian, Egyptian, Spartan, Macedonian, Assyrian, British,
Roman, Kremlin, Berliner, and DOD spook think
tanks to divide and conquer populations while looting them and
tightening the invisible empire's grip.

None of these ideas are new and the same divide-and-conquer political
ruses have been used by the mystery Babylon elite for millennia. If you
study ancient propaganda you will quickly learn this. There's the master
race bogey man and the oppressed minorities sh!t show in every imperial
culture in world history. The roles are reversed, the tables turn, but
the same group that turns the tables stays in power while the rest of us
fight each other.

The world rulers have always ruled by deception, agitation, and
division. They divide up their spoils by staging wars to cull the
population and cash in and consolidate. They are desperate for another
world war to cull the population, and the current political climate is
designed to bring the population to despair and anger prior to starting
a war and enacting new forms of authoritarianism to suppress real
dissent while encouraging useless dissent, corruption and sabotage.

While the proles all battle each other over pet ideology or pet
religious sect the entrenched bureaucracy is quietly installing the
system that will ensure our grandchildren are sport f!ck toys for the
elite for another hundred years.

--
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█░░███████░░█░░████░ ░███░░████░░███ [chan] 711
█░░░░░░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░███░░░░██░░███ spooky mart
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ always open
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ stay spooky
██████░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░░░█░░░░██░░░░█ https://bitmessage.org
██████░░██░░█░░█████ █░░█░░██████░░█
██████░░░░░░█░░░░░░░ ░░░█░░░░░░░░░░█
████████████████████ ███████████████
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411441 is a reply to message #411376] Fri, 01 October 2021 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 9/29/21 12:03 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:

> Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
> thread to "alt.flamewar"???  :-)   Some of this is starting to singe my
> computer screen!   ;-)
>
> Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
> too.  At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
> alt.computers.folklore.   :-)  I hope...

Amen. I would like this hierarchy to move away from oppressive
political bullsh!t. You guys seem to mostly have some nice and nostalgic
discussions here that are a nice escape from the circus. But wherever
people are, as soon as politics or religion enter the discussion, we can
expect the combatants to circle the wagons with their camp and ready a
romper.

If you want to argue politics and mangle the dictionary, please try
talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh. On these political
hierarchies you can:

1. Go vax yourself.
2. Drink your fluoride
3. Fellate your fuhrer.
4. Grope brown people to prove you aren't racist.
5. Claim Jesus identifies as a republican.
6. Prophesy about the second coming of Orange Man.
7. Fellate the cops.
8. Fellate the troops.
9. Defund the fellatio.

.... or whatever.

--
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█░░░░░░░░░░░█░░░░░░░ ░███░░░░░░░░███
█░░███████░░█░░████░ ░███░░████░░███ [chan] 711
█░░░░░░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░███░░░░██░░███ spooky mart
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ always open
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ stay spooky
██████░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░░░█░░░░██░░░░█ https://bitmessage.org
██████░░██░░█░░█████ █░░█░░██████░░█
██████░░░░░░█░░░░░░░ ░░░█░░░░░░░░░░█
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Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411464 is a reply to message #411441] Fri, 01 October 2021 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
Messages: 555
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:17:53 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
> On 9/29/21 12:03 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:
>> Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
>> thread to "alt.flamewar"???  :-)   Some of this is starting to singe my
>> computer screen!   ;-)
>>
>> Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
>> too.  At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
>> alt.computers.folklore.   :-)  I hope...
>
> Amen. I would like this hierarchy to move away from oppressive
> political bullsh!t. You guys seem to mostly have some nice and nostalgic
> discussions here that are a nice escape from the circus. But wherever
> people are, as soon as politics or religion enter the discussion, we can
> expect the combatants to circle the wagons with their camp and ready a
> romper.
>
> If you want to argue politics and mangle the dictionary, please try
> talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh. On these political
> hierarchies you can:

I find it curious that you, who just started participating in this forum
literally just days ago, are going to tell the regulars, who have been here for
years, how to conduct themselves.
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411693 is a reply to message #411464] Wed, 06 October 2021 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 10/1/21 1:57 PM, Questor wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:17:53 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
>> On 9/29/21 12:03 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>> Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
>>> thread to "alt.flamewar"???  :-)   Some of this is starting to singe my
>>> computer screen!   ;-)
>>>
>>> Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
>>> too.  At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
>>> alt.computers.folklore.   :-)  I hope...
>>
>> Amen. I would like this hierarchy to move away from oppressive
>> political bullsh!t. You guys seem to mostly have some nice and nostalgic
>> discussions here that are a nice escape from the circus. But wherever
>> people are, as soon as politics or religion enter the discussion, we can
>> expect the combatants to circle the wagons with their camp and ready a
>> romper.
>>
>> If you want to argue politics and mangle the dictionary, please try
>> talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh. On these political
>> hierarchies you can:
>
> I find it curious that you, who just started participating in this forum
> literally just days ago, are going to tell the regulars, who have been here for
> years, how to conduct themselves.

The same is done with the natives of countries even to this day and
hardly anyone bats an eyelash. Why not advance conquest on Usenet? The
Ubernummer can colonize and seize some trollingsraum. No need to be
fragile over digital turf. We can always make more so Ubernummer can
take more.

I find it curious that quite literally, political discussion is about
telling others how to conduct themselves. And my objection to that is
seen as telling others how to conduct themselves. Voicing any opinion at
all can be seen as telling others how to conduct themselves.

How long you incorrectly think I have been participating is of no
relevance to the discussion, nor is it a accurate gauge of the relevance
of my opinion on such a universal matter.

If you don't like my opinion feel free to object. Don't expect me to be
moved by it. I will generally ignore political points except to say that
whatever political camp you belong to, you're all crazy.

--
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█░░███████░░█░░████░ ░███░░████░░███ [chan] 711
█░░░░░░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░███░░░░██░░███ spooky mart
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ always open
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ stay spooky
██████░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░░░█░░░░██░░░░█ https://bitmessage.org
██████░░██░░█░░█████ █░░█░░██████░░█
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Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411716 is a reply to message #411693] Wed, 06 October 2021 13:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 953
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:

> If you don't like my opinion feel free to object.

Don't care about your opinion but I'd be much more likely to read what
you post if you were to lose the long blocks of 0x81 0xe2 0x96 0x88

> ██....

in your sig.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411727 is a reply to message #411716] Thu, 07 October 2021 01:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 10/6/21 12:22 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>
>> If you don't like my opinion feel free to object.
>
> Don't care about your opinion but I'd be much more likely to read what
> you post if you were to lose the long blocks of 0x81 0xe2 0x96 0x88
>
>> ██....
>
> in your sig.

It sounds as if your locale settings may need updated either in your
reader or system-wide.

Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:

"Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
21.3 and below. You can prefer it just below your preferred coding
system by specifying utf-8 with 'M-x prefer-coding-system' and then
repeating the command to replace your most preferred coding system at
the front of the priority list ( 'coding-category-list' )."

More at: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/UnicodeEncoding

Maybe you are using a legacy reader that doesn't understand UTF-8 text.
UTF-8 has been standard for many years now. Most modern mail and news
readers and even terminal emulators now support it out of the box. Many
programmers now use UTF-8 symbols in their source code with no problems.
Even Python now supports "*~ encoding UTF-8" directives in source files.

Maybe check your locale settings, too. If your system locale is set to
other than "en_US.UTF-8" or something similar containing "UTF-8", this
can cause display of escape sequences rather than characters. In a bash
shell try this:

$ echo $LANG

You might also try:

or

grep -v "#" /etc/locale.gen

search for for a line similar to "en_US.UTF-8 UTF-8" and see if it is
commented out, or if an older ISO encoding is enabled in that file. If
this is the case then:

$ man locale-gen

should instruct you how to update the system locale to display UTF-8
characters properly.

Some hardcore and slim distros may not do these settings automatically,
so applications that don't set their own locale settings will revert to
whatever is in the system settings. For instance take XED text editor.
You can open a file and specify the locale encoding.

You may ignore the string of escape sequences below this line.

____________________________________________________________ _________


--
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█░░███████░░█░░████░ ░███░░████░░███ [chan] 711
█░░░░░░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░███░░░░██░░███ spooky mart
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ always open
██████░░██░░███░░██░ ░█████░░██░░███ stay spooky
██████░░██░░█░░░░██░ ░░░█░░░░██░░░░█ https://bitmessage.org
██████░░██░░█░░█████ █░░█░░██████░░█
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Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411745 is a reply to message #411727] Thu, 07 October 2021 13:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 953
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:

> On 10/6/21 12:22 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>
>>> If you don't like my opinion feel free to object.
>>
>> Don't care about your opinion but I'd be much more likely to read what
>> you post if you were to lose the long blocks of 0x81 0xe2 0x96 0x88
>>
>>> ██....
>>
>> in your sig.
>
> It sounds as if your locale settings may need updated either in your
> reader or system-wide.
>
> Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>
> "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
> 21.3 and below.

Emacs 20.7. Just so.

> [snip]
> Maybe you are using a legacy reader that doesn't understand UTF-8 text.
> UTF-8 has been standard for many years now.

This is Usenet. a.f.c is an English language newsgroup. I'm an ASCII
guy, expecially in English on Usenet. There are work-arounds for for
the occasionally wanted typographic items missing from ASCII. I
certainly don't need all the 2^32 or whatever symbols/chars/glyphs.


Thank you for your tutorial on enabling UTF-8. Saved in case Hell
should, in fact, freeze over in my lifetime.

> You may ignore the string of escape sequences below this line.

"Ignore" is the key word there. "below" is variable.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411746 is a reply to message #411745] Thu, 07 October 2021 13:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3749
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:

> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>
>> On 10/6/21 12:22 PM, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>>
>>>> If you don't like my opinion feel free to object.
>>>
>>> Don't care about your opinion but I'd be much more likely to read what
>>> you post if you were to lose the long blocks of 0x81 0xe2 0x96 0x88
>>>
>>>> ██....
>>>
>>> in your sig.
>>
>> It sounds as if your locale settings may need updated either in your
>> reader or system-wide.
>>
>> Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>
>> "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>> 21.3 and below.
>
> Emacs 20.7. Just so.

Where did you did that up and why should we consider that relevant?

GNU Emacs 27.1

--
Dan Espen
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411750 is a reply to message #411746] Thu, 07 October 2021 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 953
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:

> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>
>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>
>>> Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>>
>>> "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>>> 21.3 and below.
>>
>> Emacs 20.7. Just so.
>
> Where did you did that up...
>
> GNU Emacs 27.1

Off-and-on Unix user from '89, tried to install slackware from
floppies in mid 90s, got lost in the mess. Fail.

In 1999 I bought a Great Fat Book with two Linux CDs in it: Caldera
and RedHat. Installed Caldera. It came up with XEmacs default. Gak!
Hastily downloaded and compiled then-current GNU Emacs -- 20.7.

With a working Linux up, as soon as I figured out how to do it,
switched to Slackware 8.0.

Since then, with each new update of Slackware, there's a new Emacs
version. I install it, spend several hours trying to make annoying
features go away or revert to previous behavior. Get fed up and
replace it with the 20.7 binary compiled in 1999. Rinse & repeat each
time a new Emacs comes along.

I can't recall all the annoyances off the top of my head. The ones
that come to mind:

+ Changed behavior of the prompt in shell-mode

+ Emacs wants to convert 30 years' accumulation of BABYL email &
news files to mbox format.

+ Colorization/standout mode. Colors chosen by Emacs conflict
with X colors I choose for Emacs windows, making (for example) the
minibuffer unreadable.

+ Numerous others I forget.

Well, you asked.

> ... and why should we consider that relevant?

Not relevant to Spooky's bloated binary .sig itself. Relevant
response to Spooky's quoted line, confessiong that h{is,er}
surmise about what {s}he regards as my antidiluvian technology is
correct.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411751 is a reply to message #411750] Thu, 07 October 2021 16:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-10-07, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>>
>>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>>
>>>> Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>>>
>>>> "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>>>> 21.3 and below.
>>>
>>> Emacs 20.7. Just so.
>>
>> Where did you did that up...
>>
>> GNU Emacs 27.1
>
> Off-and-on Unix user from '89, tried to install slackware from floppies in
> mid 90s, got lost in the mess. Fail.
>

Slackware was easy, it had bunch of HOWTO's, and I worked on AT&T Unix and SCO
before :P
Also Stratus's VOS :P


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
with software, you repeat same experiment, expecting different results...
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411752 is a reply to message #411750] Thu, 07 October 2021 18:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3749
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:

> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>>
>>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>>
>>>> Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>>>
>>>> "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>>>> 21.3 and below.
>>>
>>> Emacs 20.7. Just so.
>>
>> Where did you did that up...
>>
>> GNU Emacs 27.1
>
> Off-and-on Unix user from '89, tried to install slackware from
> floppies in mid 90s, got lost in the mess. Fail.
>
> In 1999 I bought a Great Fat Book with two Linux CDs in it: Caldera
> and RedHat. Installed Caldera. It came up with XEmacs default. Gak!
> Hastily downloaded and compiled then-current GNU Emacs -- 20.7.
>
> With a working Linux up, as soon as I figured out how to do it,
> switched to Slackware 8.0.
>
> Since then, with each new update of Slackware, there's a new Emacs
> version. I install it, spend several hours trying to make annoying
> features go away or revert to previous behavior. Get fed up and
> replace it with the 20.7 binary compiled in 1999. Rinse & repeat each
> time a new Emacs comes along.
>
> I can't recall all the annoyances off the top of my head. The ones
> that come to mind:
>
> + Changed behavior of the prompt in shell-mode
>
> + Emacs wants to convert 30 years' accumulation of BABYL email &
> news files to mbox format.

I used to be an MH-E bigot, but I've long been convinced of the merits
of IMAP. Leave that stuff on your server. Well, I do sometimes save
stuff in nnmh format.

> + Colorization/standout mode. Colors chosen by Emacs conflict
> with X colors I choose for Emacs windows, making (for example) the
> minibuffer unreadable.

Looks like I set the color of the minibuffer text using custom.
Simply get into the customize stuff and find and set it.

There are hundreds of themes, but I've been setting my own colors for
too long. I can't recall that stuff ever being disturbed by a new
release.

> + Numerous others I forget.
>
> Well, you asked.

For each new version of Emacs, the News file indicates the changes
and when relevant, how to revert them.

>> ... and why should we consider that relevant?
>
> Not relevant to Spooky's bloated binary .sig itself. Relevant
> response to Spooky's quoted line, confessiong that h{is,er}
> surmise about what {s}he regards as my antidiluvian technology is
> correct.

--
Dan Espen
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411757 is a reply to message #411752] Thu, 07 October 2021 19:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Branimir Maksimovic

On 2021-10-07, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>>>
>>>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>>> >
>>>> > "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>>>> > 21.3 and below.
>>>>
>>>> Emacs 20.7. Just so.
>>>
>>> Where did you did that up...
>>>
>>> GNU Emacs 27.1
>>
>> Off-and-on Unix user from '89, tried to install slackware from floppies in
>> mid 90s, got lost in the mess. Fail.
>>
>> In 1999 I bought a Great Fat Book with two Linux CDs in it: Caldera and
>> RedHat. Installed Caldera. It came up with XEmacs default. Gak! Hastily
>> downloaded and compiled then-current GNU Emacs -- 20.7.
>>
>> With a working Linux up, as soon as I figured out how to do it, switched to
>> Slackware 8.0.
>>
>> Since then, with each new update of Slackware, there's a new Emacs version.
>> I install it, spend several hours trying to make annoying features go away
>> or revert to previous behavior. Get fed up and replace it with the 20.7
>> binary compiled in 1999. Rinse & repeat each time a new Emacs comes along.
>>
>> I can't recall all the annoyances off the top of my head. The ones that
>> come to mind:
>>
>> + Changed behavior of the prompt in shell-mode
>>
>> + Emacs wants to convert 30 years' accumulation of BABYL email & news
>> files to mbox format.
>
> I used to be an MH-E bigot, but I've long been convinced of the merits of
> IMAP. Leave that stuff on your server. Well, I do sometimes save stuff in
> nnmh format.
>
>> + Colorization/standout mode. Colors chosen by Emacs conflict with X
>> colors I choose for Emacs windows, making (for example) the minibuffer
>> unreadable.
>
> Looks like I set the color of the minibuffer text using custom. Simply get
> into the customize stuff and find and set it.
>
> There are hundreds of themes, but I've been setting my own colors for too
> long. I can't recall that stuff ever being disturbed by a new release.
>
>> + Numerous others I forget.
>>
>> Well, you asked.
>
> For each new version of Emacs, the News file indicates the changes and when
> relevant, how to revert them.
>
Emacs is cleverly written, I might notice :P
iT figures out if you are on desktop or connected via
ssh :P

>


--

7-77-777
Evil Sinner!
with software, you repeat same experiment, expecting different results...
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411759 is a reply to message #411750] Thu, 07 October 2021 20:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Andreas Kohlbach is currently offline  Andreas Kohlbach
Messages: 1415
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 07 Oct 2021 16:52:33 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>>
>>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>>
>>>> Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>>>
>>>> "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>>>> 21.3 and below.

You can probably set something like

(setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15 utf-8))

in the .gnus (or .emacs). I have it, although I doubt it's needed anymore
with my version

(GNU Emacs 27.1 (build 1, i686-pc-linux-gnu) of 2021-03-27, modified by Debian).

>>> Emacs 20.7. Just so.
>>
>> Where did you did that up...
>>
>> GNU Emacs 27.1

Then it automatically should deal with charäkterß outside the ASCII
range, no?

> Off-and-on Unix user from '89, tried to install slackware from
> floppies in mid 90s, got lost in the mess. Fail.
>
> In 1999 I bought a Great Fat Book with two Linux CDs in it: Caldera
> and RedHat. Installed Caldera. It came up with XEmacs default. Gak!
> Hastily downloaded and compiled then-current GNU Emacs -- 20.7.

Installed my first Linux 1998, but took until 2000 that I used Gnus for
usenet postings.
--
Andreas

PGP fingerprint 952B0A9F12C2FD6C9F7E68DAA9C2EA89D1A370E0
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411760 is a reply to message #411759] Thu, 07 October 2021 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dan Espen is currently offline  Dan Espen
Messages: 3749
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> writes:

> On 07 Oct 2021 16:52:33 -0300, Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:
>>>
>>>> 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Are you using Gnus/Emacs? If so the Emacs wiki says:
>>>> >
>>>> > "Auto-detection of UTF-8 is effectively disabled by default in GNU Emacs
>>>> > 21.3 and below.
>
> You can probably set something like
>
> (setq mm-coding-system-priorities '(iso-8859-1 iso-8859-15 utf-8))
>
> in the .gnus (or .emacs). I have it, although I doubt it's needed anymore
> with my version
>
> (GNU Emacs 27.1 (build 1, i686-pc-linux-gnu) of 2021-03-27, modified by Debian).
>
>>>> Emacs 20.7. Just so.
>>>
>>> Where did you did that up...
>>>
>>> GNU Emacs 27.1
>
> Then it automatically should deal with charäkterß outside the ASCII
> range, no?

Sure does. Emojis, Bi-directional text. All just works.


--
Dan Espen
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411795 is a reply to message #411693] Sat, 09 October 2021 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usenet is currently offline  usenet
Messages: 555
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 02:11:43 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
> On 10/1/21 1:57 PM, Questor wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:17:53 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
>>> On 9/29/21 12:03 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>>> Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
>>>> thread to "alt.flamewar"???  :-)   Some of this is starting to singe my
>>>> computer screen!   ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
>>>> too.  At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
>>>> alt.computers.folklore.   :-)  I hope...
>>>
>>> Amen. I would like this hierarchy to move away from oppressive
>>> political bullsh!t. You guys seem to mostly have some nice and nostalgic
>>> discussions here that are a nice escape from the circus. But wherever
>>> people are, as soon as politics or religion enter the discussion, we can
>>> expect the combatants to circle the wagons with their camp and ready a
>>> romper.
>>>
>>> If you want to argue politics and mangle the dictionary, please try
>>> talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh. On these political
>>> hierarchies you can:
>>
>> I find it curious that you, who just started participating in this forum
>> literally just days ago, are going to tell the regulars, who have been here for
>> years, how to conduct themselves.


> The same is done with the natives of countries even to this day and
> hardly anyone bats an eyelash. Why not advance conquest on Usenet? The
> Ubernummer can colonize and seize some trollingsraum. No need to be
> fragile over digital turf. We can always make more so Ubernummer can
> take more.

I cannot even make sense of this gibberish.


> I find it curious that quite literally, political discussion is about
> telling others how to conduct themselves. And my objection to that is
> seen as telling others how to conduct themselves. Voicing any opinion at
> all can be seen as telling others how to conduct themselves.

Telling us we should go post in talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh is
certain telling us how we should conduct ourselves in this forum. And I note
in another thread that you reguarly talk down to people, and tell them what to
do -- what software to run, how to configure it, and more. When they raise
an objection -- "voicing their opinion" -- then you subject them to insults.
In short, your behavior on alt.folklore.computers has been as obnoxious as
your signature, and you have contributed almost nothing in the way of
computer folklore.


> How long you incorrectly think I have been participating is of no
> relevance to the discussion, nor is it a accurate gauge of the relevance
> of my opinion on such a universal matter.

I don't care if you've been on Usenet for forty years -- if you act like a
newbie, then you are a newbie. You've ignored the standards and norms
of this community and insulted it's long-time participants. That's what
a newbie does. You've already earned a placed in several kill files.
I think a shunning is in order. Ideally, no one should read or reply to any of
your posts. I'm sure that you're going to insult me in your reply, just as you
have with others. I won't be reading it, nor replying to anything you write
in the future.


> If you don't like my opinion feel free to object. Don't expect me to be
> moved by it. I will generally ignore political points except to say that
> whatever political camp you belong to, you're all crazy.

Politics is an integral, unavoidable component of all human interactions.
The question isn't one of politics versus no politics, but of good politics
versus poor politics. Regrettably, there many poor politicians these days,
which certainly sours people's opinion on politics. I also note that the
vociferous objectors to politics never announce that they are going to run for
public office in order to do a better job. Where do people think politicians
come from? They are citizens who step up and say, "I'm going to take that job."
In any event, if you want better politics, you should get involved on some
level.

"Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving
cabs, tending bar, and cutting hair."
Re: Sub or dom ; does it really matter? [message #411835 is a reply to message #411795] Tue, 12 October 2021 11:26 Go to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: 711 Spooky Mart

On 10/9/21 12:48 AM, Questor wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Oct 2021 02:11:43 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
>> On 10/1/21 1:57 PM, Questor wrote:
>>> On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 23:17:53 -0500, 711 Spooky Mart <711@spooky.mart> wrote:
>>>> On 9/29/21 12:03 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:
>>>> > Has anyone considered putting on their fire-proof suits and moving this
>>>> > thread to "alt.flamewar"???  :-)   Some of this is starting to singe my
>>>> > computer screen!   ;-)
>>>> >
>>>> > Of course if folks want to continue this "discussion" here, that's good
>>>> > too.  At least these posts beat having *no* one posting to
>>>> > alt.computers.folklore.   :-)  I hope...
>>>>
>>>> Amen. I would like this hierarchy to move away from oppressive
>>>> political bullsh!t. You guys seem to mostly have some nice and nostalgic
>>>> discussions here that are a nice escape from the circus. But wherever
>>>> people are, as soon as politics or religion enter the discussion, we can
>>>> expect the combatants to circle the wagons with their camp and ready a
>>>> romper.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to argue politics and mangle the dictionary, please try
>>>> talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh. On these political
>>>> hierarchies you can:
>>>
>>> I find it curious that you, who just started participating in this forum
>>> literally just days ago, are going to tell the regulars, who have been here for
>>> years, how to conduct themselves.
>
>
>> The same is done with the natives of countries even to this day and
>> hardly anyone bats an eyelash. Why not advance conquest on Usenet? The
>> Ubernummer can colonize and seize some trollingsraum. No need to be
>> fragile over digital turf. We can always make more so Ubernummer can
>> take more.
>
> I cannot even make sense of this gibberish.
>
>
>> I find it curious that quite literally, political discussion is about
>> telling others how to conduct themselves. And my objection to that is
>> seen as telling others how to conduct themselves. Voicing any opinion at
>> all can be seen as telling others how to conduct themselves.
>
> Telling us we should go post in talk.politics.misc or alt.fan.rush.limbaugh is
> certain telling us how we should conduct ourselves in this forum. And I note
> in another thread that you reguarly talk down to people, and tell them what to
> do -- what software to run, how to configure it, and more. When they raise
> an objection -- "voicing their opinion" -- then you subject them to insults.
> In short, your behavior on alt.folklore.computers has been as obnoxious as
> your signature, and you have contributed almost nothing in the way of
> computer folklore.
>
>
>> How long you incorrectly think I have been participating is of no
>> relevance to the discussion, nor is it a accurate gauge of the relevance
>> of my opinion on such a universal matter.
>
> I don't care if you've been on Usenet for forty years -- if you act like a
> newbie, then you are a newbie. You've ignored the standards and norms
> of this community and insulted it's long-time participants. That's what
> a newbie does. You've already earned a placed in several kill files.
> I think a shunning is in order. Ideally, no one should read or reply to any of
> your posts. I'm sure that you're going to insult me in your reply, just as you
> have with others. I won't be reading it, nor replying to anything you write
> in the future.
>
>
>> If you don't like my opinion feel free to object. Don't expect me to be
>> moved by it. I will generally ignore political points except to say that
>> whatever political camp you belong to, you're all crazy.
>
> Politics is an integral, unavoidable component of all human interactions.
> The question isn't one of politics versus no politics, but of good politics
> versus poor politics. Regrettably, there many poor politicians these days,
> which certainly sours people's opinion on politics. I also note that the
> vociferous objectors to politics never announce that they are going to run for
> public office in order to do a better job. Where do people think politicians
> come from? They are citizens who step up and say, "I'm going to take that job."
> In any event, if you want better politics, you should get involved on some
> level.
>
> "Too bad all the people who know how to run the country are busy driving
> cabs, tending bar, and cutting hair."
>

> "I'm sure that you're going to insult me in your reply, just as you
have with others. I won't be reading it, nor replying to anything you
write in the future."

No, you're sure I will defend myself and my integrity against your moo
poo accusations. Here you are trying to spin doctor my response before
I've even made it.You probably won't be reading it, but most everyone
else will be reading it.

> "Politics is an integral, unavoidable component of all human
interactions."

No, politics is war by other means, just as war is politics by other
means. (see von Clauzewitz) Politics is the result of one group of
people desiring to rule over another group of people. That's all it is,
and that's all it's ever been. That is the beginning of war and
conquest. My metaphor about conquest of trollingsraum went right over
your head, didn't it?

> "I also note that the vociferous objectors to politics never announce
that they are going to run for public office in order to do a better job."

A better job at what? How does joining a criminal gang improve anything?
Have you seen the kinds of villains that inhabit public office? In case
you haven't noticed, the government is nothing but a criminal racket,
and no matter who gets elected, the march to complete authoritarianism
never stops.

Beginning 1950 years ago a group of people who refused to participate in
politics changed the world more dramatically than it had ever been
changed. After 200 years of their influence and refusal to participate
in politics, the most oppressive, bloodthirsty empire of that age
crumbled into ruin. All of its mass murders and blood sports ceased
because of the influence of those conscientious objectors to politics.
None of those people ran for office to bring about that transformation.
Rather, they refused to submit to the people who had been elected to
office. The people who held public office murdered them in droves, but
still could not stop the transformation their faith would bring to society.

> "Telling us we should go post in talk.politics.misc or
alt.fan.rush.limbaugh is certain telling us how we should conduct
ourselves in this forum. "

Hyperbole and metaphor is lost on your authoritarian pea brain. I didn't
make threats of shunning and ostracism. You did. You're the one who is
trying to tell me what to do, trying to intimidate and pressure me to
conform, then hiding your hypocrisy behind a hyperbolic statement I
made. You are intrinsically dishonest.

> "You've ignored the standards and norms of this community and insulted
it's long-time participants."

These standards and norms you speak of are vague and inexplicable and
only come into play when you want to target someone, like any good
little authoritarian does. Authoritarianism is tribalism with tech.

You hear what you want to hear. You believe what you want to believe.
Your characterization of me is a lie and a slander and turns the facts
on their head, as any reader of my messages can verify.

The issue here is that a clutch of authoritarian beta males have ganged
up on someone who doesn't kowtow to the (vague) tribal norms that they
wish to enforce. You are attempting to exert peer pressure on me to make
me obedient, while trying to mask the authoritarian nature of your
mentality. You're not upset that you perceived me as insulting. You're
upset because you perceive the insult being toward _your_ tribe.

That is why you spout like pollies, "You'll be added to killfiles." This
is why your tribal companions started a row about my signature. You will
use whatever lie fits the moment to project what you are actually doing,
onto the person you are doing it to.

It is your tribe who have been talking down to me. I retorted to the
passive-aggressive abuse and you define that as "talking down." Your
tribal companions drew first blood. I will not fall into line with the
as yet inexplicable, hidden rulebook on what you consider norms or
acceptable behavior. I'm not your cow and I don't bow to peer pressure
from tribalists who think being in this group for a long time gives them
a form of entitlement to command how others express themselves.

It is people like you who burned men and women at the stake. Thankfully
in this age, all you have had is a killfile--until recently, since now
your tribe has the syringe.

The world loves its own and hates those from above the fray. You put out
a general call for everyone on the group to shun me. This shows your
true, authoritarian colors. I don't care if you've been here for 40
years. You don't own this newsgroup and you have no right to use
pressure to chill my free expression. You are on the side of censorship
and authoritarianim, which is contrary to the spirit of Usenet, and
contrary to the human spirit of the living. The dead know nothing at all.

I don't care if you shun me. It's your loss, not mine. You have nothing
to offer me, because I am living, and you are from the tribe of the dead.

You must equate my freedom and individuality with an attack on your
sense of tribal order. It must rankle you sore to see someone so far out
of line.

To everyone else reading this exchange: I do not encourage you to
killfile or shun anyone. I encourage you to call your friends out for
their moo poo. I encourage you to ask yourself why someone would put out
a general shunning call. If that isn't tribalist authoritarianism, then
what is?

If people don't stand up to this streak of authoritarianism in Western
society, there won't be anywhere to form an opinion in the future.

--
████████████████████ ███████████████
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