| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378629 is a reply to message #378595] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:35   |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
we need to conserve it. What will happen to our economy if gasoline
hits $5/gallon? Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378630 is a reply to message #378628] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:37 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:31:56 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 12:02:50 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The fix used to be "red light districts" however the professional
>> do-gooders managed to petition the government to redistribute the
>> crime more equitably. Bringing back red-light districts would be a
>> start.
>
> Red Light districts were a problem going way back. The decay
> spread outward.
They were only a problem to those who thought that crime could be
stamped out instead of confined. It can't be ended, but if it mostly
takes place in one area that most people can avoid most of the time
the situation is better than that if it is dispersed all over the
place.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378631 is a reply to message #378627] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:40 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:30:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 8:53:19 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>>> Likely. I know a lady, who knows another lady, who works in the
>>> Social Services, and in that capacity, visits emergency hostels for
>>> family's that have been evicted. The hostel is in 'inner city'
>>> Dublin, not quite as bad as Inner City Noo York, but not good.
>>> The children are afraid of going outside, because of junkies, etc,
>>> and spend their home hours watching tv or playing with smart-phones.
>>
>> What is the solution for this? This is why people move to the suburbs, for
>> real or imagined insulation from such things. What would have to be done
>> to make the cities as safe as the suburbs? Massive sweeps to round up all
>> the junkies, pushers, whores, and nut-cases, and send them to work farms in
>> the country? This would never work, or be allowed.
>
> This is obviously a very tough question. But it needs to be solved
> regardless of energy or pollution issues. The decay in the cities
> inevitably spreads to the suburbs, so moving out is not a solution.
>
> Unfortunately, I think radical changes in society will be required,
> and that of course will be vehemently fought. IMHO, we need:
> --restoration of the traditional two parent family and discouragement
> of single parents.
Do you have evidence that children in single parent families are more
likely to create social problems than are children in "traditional two
parent familes"?
> --discouragement of recreational use of narcotics.
That's called "the war on drugs" and most of the crime associated with
narcotics is the result of that war.
> Part of the problem is that people aren't honest about these issues.
> Some advocates claim single parents are just as good as two-parents.
Do they have evidence?
> Touchy issue. As to drugs, some claim it comes from the medicine
> chest and the opiods are all victims. Not true.
That statement makes no sense. Perhaps you could clarify it?
>
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378632 is a reply to message #378610] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:43 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:18:29 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Yes, but when a 12-year-old girl can be kidnapped in front of her house
>> while waiting for the school bus and killed, who's to argue the fear is
>> unjustified?
>
> Anyone with an even superficial understanding of statistics?
Unfortunately, when individuals evaluate personal risk they usually
do not take an intellectual analysis. They base decisions on
emotions. So, people avoid doing things where there's a million
to one risk of harm, yet do things of greater risk due to emotions.
When I was a kid my parents biggest fear (and it was a big one) was
that I'd get hit by a car. Traffic safety was vigorously taught
and enforced in schools and at home. There was only a passing mention
to "don't talk to strangers".
Unfortunately, many communities today are filled with strangers.
We don't have that neighbor support as we once had. That promotes
insecurity. Further, people get the idea there is nasty stuff ongoing
from sensationalist news.
I know many parents who would drive their kids to school and not
use the school bus. That amazes me. I don't get it.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378633 is a reply to message #378629] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:43 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:35:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>
> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
> we need to conserve it.
Are you saying that the United States is a "politically unstable
country"?
> What will happen to our economy if gasoline
> hits $5/gallon?
The same thing that happened when it hit $4/gallon, drill baby drill.
> Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
What happened the last time we had gasoline shortages? Other than a
feckless president whingeing about "malaise".
> Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
> could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
Of course you are the lawfully appointed arbiter of what others need.
> Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
So how much gas does a Model X guzzle?
>
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378634 is a reply to message #378619] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:50 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 5:24:47 PM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>> Yes, but when a 12-year-old girl can be kidnapped in front of her house
>>> while waiting for the school bus and killed, who's to argue the fear is
>>> unjustified?
>>
>> Anyone with an even superficial understanding of statistics?
> Are you willing to play the odds with your kid's life?
The minute a kid is born the parents are playing odds. How do they
know the hospital won't screw up with their new baby? How do they
know they won't screw up (parents do).
As the kid grows up, it will leave the house. The parents cannot
watch it 24/7. Indeed, even in the house there risks. Miniscule
risks, but risks just the same. The gas furnace can explode.
A truck could slam into the house. Someone could drive by and
shoot it up (happened on my former block).
The kids goes off to college. Every so often we read about a
frat kid who died from over-drinking, or some girl killed on a
lonely road. Indeed, I'm amazed that given the recklessness of
college kids and their crazy world, that more deaths don't occur.
To have a healthy society, we need parents to take the trouble to
truly understand the world around (not a soundbite) and take
reasonable and sensible measures. Too bad some daughter, wise
enough to never talk to strangers while growing up, goes to
college and drinks like a fish and joins the hook-up culture.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378635 is a reply to message #378622] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:52 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 6:07:03 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> For every kid that gets abducted by a stranger 90 run away from home
> voluntarily. 1 percent of children who die in the United States are
> murdered by strangers who abducted them. If you want to protect your
> kid you really should be working on the other 99 percent.
Unfortunately, the fear over child abduction has been driven, in part,
by abduction by estranged parents in custody battles.
The decay of marriage has created a lot of warring parents. Terrible
for all.
I must admit it's something I don't understand. How do two people
willing to bed each other turn into bitter enemies not long
afterwards? Happens quite a bit these days. IMHO, this is a
big contributor of social ills.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378636 is a reply to message #378623] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 19:55 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 6:19:03 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> ??? The best selling vehicle in the United States in 2017 was the
> Ford F-Series, second best was the Chevrolet Silverado, third best was
> the Dodge Ram series.
How many buying those trucks really need it? I dare say a very
substantial number rationalize their need and only get it because
they want the psychological pleasure of driving a big vehicle.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378637 is a reply to message #378636] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:24 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:55:29 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 6:19:03 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> ??? The best selling vehicle in the United States in 2017 was the
>> Ford F-Series, second best was the Chevrolet Silverado, third best was
>> the Dodge Ram series.
>
> How many buying those trucks really need it? I dare say a very
> substantial number rationalize their need and only get it because
> they want the psychological pleasure of driving a big vehicle.
Nobody has appointed you arbiter of others' needs. If you want to
live in a society where each gets according to what someone like you
percieves to be his needs, you might try Cuba.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378638 is a reply to message #378627] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:25 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 8:53:19 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>>> Likely. I know a lady, who knows another lady, who works in the
>>> Social Services, and in that capacity, visits emergency hostels for
>>> family's that have been evicted. The hostel is in 'inner city'
>>> Dublin, not quite as bad as Inner City Noo York, but not good.
>>> The children are afraid of going outside, because of junkies, etc,
>>> and spend their home hours watching tv or playing with smart-phones.
>>
>> What is the solution for this? This is why people move to the suburbs, for
>> real or imagined insulation from such things. What would have to be done
>> to make the cities as safe as the suburbs? Massive sweeps to round up all
>> the junkies, pushers, whores, and nut-cases, and send them to work farms in
>> the country? This would never work, or be allowed.
>
> This is obviously a very tough question. But it needs to be solved
> regardless of energy or pollution issues. The decay in the cities
> inevitably spreads to the suburbs, so moving out is not a solution.
>
> Unfortunately, I think radical changes in society will be required,
> and that of course will be vehemently fought. IMHO, we need:
> --restoration of the traditional two parent family and discouragement
> of single parents.
> --discouragement of recreational use of narcotics.
>
> Part of the problem is that people aren't honest about these issues.
> Some advocates claim single parents are just as good as two-parents.
> Touchy issue. As to drugs, some claim it comes from the medicine
> chest and the opiods are all victims. Not true.
>
All good points. Also, improving impoverished neighborhoods is disparaged
as "gentrification". Overall it is a good thing for the city, but obviously
a bad thing for the poor people who get forced out. If this is overall good
for the city it's a case of the few suffering for the good of the many.
I've seen this firsthand in Saratoga Springs, where big old houses that
were mukti-family apartments were converted back to single-family. This
displaced a lot of low-income people and pushed housing costs up, but also
made the city a place where people wanted to live and visit.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378639 is a reply to message #378632] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:25 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:18:29 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>> Yes, but when a 12-year-old girl can be kidnapped in front of her house
>>> while waiting for the school bus and killed, who's to argue the fear is
>>> unjustified?
>>
>> Anyone with an even superficial understanding of statistics?
>
> Unfortunately, when individuals evaluate personal risk they usually
> do not take an intellectual analysis. They base decisions on
> emotions. So, people avoid doing things where there's a million
> to one risk of harm, yet do things of greater risk due to emotions.
>
> When I was a kid my parents biggest fear (and it was a big one) was
> that I'd get hit by a car. Traffic safety was vigorously taught
> and enforced in schools and at home. There was only a passing mention
> to "don't talk to strangers".
>
> Unfortunately, many communities today are filled with strangers.
> We don't have that neighbor support as we once had. That promotes
> insecurity. Further, people get the idea there is nasty stuff ongoing
> from sensationalist news.
>
> I know many parents who would drive their kids to school and not
> use the school bus. That amazes me. I don't get it.
>
I did that for years. Daughter got beat up on the bus and district did
nothing. We got out.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378640 is a reply to message #378633] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:25 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:35:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>>
>> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
>> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
>> we need to conserve it.
>
> Are you saying that the United States is a "politically unstable
> country"?
>
>> What will happen to our economy if gasoline
>> hits $5/gallon?
>
> The same thing that happened when it hit $4/gallon, drill baby drill.
>
>> Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
>
> What happened the last time we had gasoline shortages? Other than a
> feckless president whingeing about "malaise".
>
>> Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
>> could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
>
> Of course you are the lawfully appointed arbiter of what others need.
>
>> Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
>
> So how much gas does a Model X guzzle?
>>
>
I think the magic number is supposed to be $10/gal. At that point a lot of
bad things begin to happen to the economy.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378641 is a reply to message #378640] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:27 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:35:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>>>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>>>
>>> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
>>> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
>>> we need to conserve it.
>>
>> Are you saying that the United States is a "politically unstable
>> country"?
>>
>>> What will happen to our economy if gasoline
>>> hits $5/gallon?
>>
>> The same thing that happened when it hit $4/gallon, drill baby drill.
>>
>>> Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
>>
>> What happened the last time we had gasoline shortages? Other than a
>> feckless president whingeing about "malaise".
>>
>>> Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
>>> could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
>>
>> Of course you are the lawfully appointed arbiter of what others need.
>>
>>> Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
>>
>> So how much gas does a Model X guzzle?
>>>
>>
>
> I think the magic number is supposed to be $10/gal. At that point a lot of
> bad things begin to happen to the economy.
>
Oops, that's oil at $10/bbl. Don't know what this translates to in gas
prices.
--
Pete
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378643 is a reply to message #378640] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:54 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:25:41 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:35:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>>>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>>>
>>> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
>>> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
>>> we need to conserve it.
>>
>> Are you saying that the United States is a "politically unstable
>> country"?
>>
>>> What will happen to our economy if gasoline
>>> hits $5/gallon?
>>
>> The same thing that happened when it hit $4/gallon, drill baby drill.
>>
>>> Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
>>
>> What happened the last time we had gasoline shortages? Other than a
>> feckless president whingeing about "malaise".
>>
>>> Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
>>> could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
>>
>> Of course you are the lawfully appointed arbiter of what others need.
>>
>>> Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
>>
>> So how much gas does a Model X guzzle?
>>>
>>
>
> I think the magic number is supposed to be $10/gal. At that point a lot of
> bad things begin to happen to the economy.
At $10/gal it is very likely that another power source will already be
in widespread use.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378644 is a reply to message #378641] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 20:58 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 18:27:10 -0700, Peter Flass
<peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:35:10 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>>>> > must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>>>>
>>>> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
>>>> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
>>>> we need to conserve it.
>>>
>>> Are you saying that the United States is a "politically unstable
>>> country"?
>>>
>>>> What will happen to our economy if gasoline
>>>> hits $5/gallon?
>>>
>>> The same thing that happened when it hit $4/gallon, drill baby drill.
>>>
>>>> Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
>>>
>>> What happened the last time we had gasoline shortages? Other than a
>>> feckless president whingeing about "malaise".
>>>
>>>> Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
>>>> could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
>>>
>>> Of course you are the lawfully appointed arbiter of what others need.
>>>
>>>> Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
>>>
>>> So how much gas does a Model X guzzle?
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> I think the magic number is supposed to be $10/gal. At that point a lot of
>> bad things begin to happen to the economy.
>>
>
> Oops, that's oil at $10/bbl. Don't know what this translates to in gas
> prices.
In that case bad things have been happening to the economy since
before WWII. The last time oil prices were that low was the 1930s.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378645 is a reply to message #378626] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 22:10 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:40:20 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Most families these days need two,cars, since husband and wife often both
>> drive to work, usually in different places. Even if one spouse is home they
>> still need a car to run errands and drive kids. Maybe a big and a small car
>> will work.
>
> In the old days, even with two people working, often one person
> would drive while the other would be driven or use transit, so
> one car would suffice for a family.
My wife and I are doing that now. However, we're a 10-minute walk
from a train station - a half-hour ride gets her where she needs to
go, without the hassle of driving. I use the car to get to an office
not served by transit.
> Unfortunately, today's society makes two cars a requirement in
> most families. People live and work too dispersed to use transit.
>
> If we truly want to save energy and pollution, we need to bring
> homes and workers closer together to allow transit usage or even
> walking. But that would require a MAJOR shift in thinking and
> business policy.
It would also likely require you to move whenever you change jobs.
If both of you are working, it gets even more complicated unless
you both work at the same place.
Maybe it's time to return to the joys of the company town...
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ Fight low-contrast text in web pages! http://contrastrebellion.com
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378646 is a reply to message #378638] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 22:10 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> All good points. Also, improving impoverished neighborhoods is disparaged
> as "gentrification". Overall it is a good thing for the city, but obviously
> a bad thing for the poor people who get forced out.
Words like "gentrification" and "renoviction" are hot-button items here in
Vancouver. The "good for the city" part comes from tax revenues (plus, no
doubt, under-the-table contributions from the developers who wield so much
power in city hall). The city once tried the "rich on paper" ploy to
justify huge tax increases, but were forced to moderate their avarice.
> If this is overall good for the city it's a case of the few suffering
> for the good of the many.
Except here it's more like the many suffering for the good of the few.
> I've seen this firsthand in Saratoga Springs, where big old houses that
> were mukti-family apartments were converted back to single-family. This
> displaced a lot of low-income people and pushed housing costs up, but also
> made the city a place where people wanted to live and visit.
Yes, the tourism card is played pretty heavily here. And yes, it's a
beautiful place where many people want to live. But that's a fantasy
if you're not rich enough (or if you bought property 30 years ago before
things went crazy). However, there seem to be enough rich people who
want to live here (or who find that buying property here is a sufficiently
lucrative investment) that the middle class is being pushed out.
The big problem is that housing is seen primarily as an investment.
That you happen to be able to live in it is incidental. The business
section of the local newspaper reflects this attitude every day.
Vancouver is becoming a luxury playground for the rich - and this
is considered a Good Thing by those in power.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ Fight low-contrast text in web pages! http://contrastrebellion.com
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378647 is a reply to message #378635] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 22:10 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 6:07:03 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> For every kid that gets abducted by a stranger 90 run away from home
>> voluntarily. 1 percent of children who die in the United States are
>> murdered by strangers who abducted them. If you want to protect your
>> kid you really should be working on the other 99 percent.
>
> Unfortunately, the fear over child abduction has been driven, in part,
> by abduction by estranged parents in custody battles.
>
> The decay of marriage has created a lot of warring parents. Terrible
> for all.
>
> I must admit it's something I don't understand. How do two people
> willing to bed each other turn into bitter enemies not long
> afterwards? Happens quite a bit these days. IMHO, this is a
> big contributor of social ills.
Those damned hormones...
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ Fight low-contrast text in web pages! http://contrastrebellion.com
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378648 is a reply to message #378646] |
Wed, 19 December 2018 22:30 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 20 Dec 2018 03:10:34 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid>
wrote:
> On 2018-12-20, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> All good points. Also, improving impoverished neighborhoods is disparaged
>> as "gentrification". Overall it is a good thing for the city, but obviously
>> a bad thing for the poor people who get forced out.
>
> Words like "gentrification" and "renoviction" are hot-button items here in
> Vancouver. The "good for the city" part comes from tax revenues (plus, no
> doubt, under-the-table contributions from the developers who wield so much
> power in city hall). The city once tried the "rich on paper" ploy to
> justify huge tax increases, but were forced to moderate their avarice.
>
>> If this is overall good for the city it's a case of the few suffering
>> for the good of the many.
>
> Except here it's more like the many suffering for the good of the few.
>
>> I've seen this firsthand in Saratoga Springs, where big old houses that
>> were mukti-family apartments were converted back to single-family. This
>> displaced a lot of low-income people and pushed housing costs up, but also
>> made the city a place where people wanted to live and visit.
>
> Yes, the tourism card is played pretty heavily here. And yes, it's a
> beautiful place where many people want to live. But that's a fantasy
> if you're not rich enough (or if you bought property 30 years ago before
> things went crazy). However, there seem to be enough rich people who
> want to live here (or who find that buying property here is a sufficiently
> lucrative investment) that the middle class is being pushed out.
>
> The big problem is that housing is seen primarily as an investment.
> That you happen to be able to live in it is incidental. The business
> section of the local newspaper reflects this attitude every day.
> Vancouver is becoming a luxury playground for the rich - and this
> is considered a Good Thing by those in power.
Perhaps an adjustment in taxation is in order, something like the long
vs short term capital gains tax only applied to houses--live there 40
years and sell you pay a low tax, live there 5 years and sell you get
taxed 100 percent on any profit. That would cut down heavily on the
"investment" aspect.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378657 is a reply to message #378632] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 01:43 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:43:07 -0800 (PST)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> When I was a kid my parents biggest fear (and it was a big one) was
> that I'd get hit by a car. Traffic safety was vigorously taught
> and enforced in schools and at home. There was only a passing mention
> to "don't talk to strangers".
Reasonable, strangers are a very small threat.
> Unfortunately, many communities today are filled with strangers.
> We don't have that neighbor support as we once had. That promotes
> insecurity. Further, people get the idea there is nasty stuff ongoing
> from sensationalist news.
Friends, neighbours, priests, scoutmasters, teachers and relatives
are a far greater threat to children than strangers. It's the people they
trust and shouldn't that cause the vast majority of the trouble.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378658 is a reply to message #378626] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 01:30 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:26:11 -0800 (PST)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> If we truly want to save energy and pollution, we need to bring
> homes and workers closer together to allow transit usage or even
> walking. But that would require a MAJOR shift in thinking and
> business policy.
Working from home would be another good solution, I've been working
from home for nearly 14 years now mostly in teams spread around the world.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378659 is a reply to message #378635] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 01:39 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:52:57 -0800 (PST)
hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Unfortunately, the fear over child abduction has been driven, in part,
> by abduction by estranged parents in custody battles.
Nasty.
> The decay of marriage has created a lot of warring parents. Terrible
> for all.
Yes.
> I must admit it's something I don't understand. How do two people
> willing to bed each other turn into bitter enemies not long
> afterwards? Happens quite a bit these days. IMHO, this is a
> big contributor of social ills.
I think it is at least partly because the hype about marriage is
that is about two people in love - it should be about two people making a
commitment to spend a big chunk of their lives raising children and
sticking to it no matter what they come to think of each other. One or
other having an affair should be seen as helping that partner stick to the
job by relieving sexual tensions (or sexual boredom) not as an excuse to
abandon the whole thing and make the children's lives a misery.
In short people are too selfish about marriage, it's not
disney-happy-ever-after it's a contract to do a long hard job together.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378662 is a reply to message #378626] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 03:40 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:40:20 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>
> If we truly want to save energy and pollution, we need to bring
> homes and workers closer together to allow transit usage or even
> walking. But that would require a MAJOR shift in thinking and
> business policy.
>
>
>> Bigger cars are also usually safer.
>
> Not sure about that. I think it more depends on the relative
> mass of the two vehicles.
>
Its very hard to see small children when they are just at the door
of a large vehicle.
--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378663 is a reply to message #378629] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 03:50 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>
> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
> we need to conserve it. What will happen to our economy if gasoline
> hits $5/gallon? Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
$5 a gallon?.. pifffle.. hey, debian does not install 'sc' by default.
Mumble, mumble, its more than that here. Not accounting for an US gallon
being smaller.
>
> Most motorists do not need the features of an SUV or pickup and
> could get along quite well with a more efficient vehicle.
>
> Accordingly, the term "gas guzzling" is quite appropriate.
>
>
--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378664 is a reply to message #378620] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 03:53 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-19, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:06:23 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> >> Anyway, kids use phones because they're more fun than their
>>>> >> alternatives. Not sure how many kids are cowering in fear in NYC.
>>>> >> More likely the helicopter parents are to blame.
>>>> >> Not sure how to fix that.
>>>> >
>>>> > Yeah, it's the parents who cower in fear.
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but when a 12-year-old girl can be kidnapped in front of her house
>>>> while waiting for the school bus and killed, who's to argue the fear is
>>>> unjustified?
>>>
>>> Anyone with an even superficial understanding of statistics?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Are you willing to play the odds with your kid's life?
>
> They're more likely to be hit by lightning. They're far more
> likely to die in a car crash.
>
> Yes, I play the odds every day. Kids are safer today then
> ever before.
Familys are smaller, you will miss one in three more than one in five,
--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378665 is a reply to message #378657] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 04:00 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:43:07 -0800 (PST)
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> When I was a kid my parents biggest fear (and it was a big one) was
>> that I'd get hit by a car. Traffic safety was vigorously taught
>> and enforced in schools and at home. There was only a passing mention
>> to "don't talk to strangers".
>
> Reasonable, strangers are a very small threat.
>
>> Unfortunately, many communities today are filled with strangers.
>> We don't have that neighbor support as we once had. That promotes
>> insecurity. Further, people get the idea there is nasty stuff ongoing
>> from sensationalist news.
>
> Friends, neighbours, priests, scoutmasters, teachers and relatives
> are a far greater threat to children than strangers. It's the people they
> trust and shouldn't that cause the vast majority of the trouble.
>
=++
That was the problem with the McCann case. Every police inquiry
starts at the immediatly family and works out, in the Mccann case,
some idiot policeman told a reporter that.
--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378668 is a reply to message #378662] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 06:03 |
Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4843
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 20 Dec 2018 08:40:51 GMT
maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> Its very hard to see small children when they are just at the door
> of a large vehicle.
Or as an ex-neighbour found to his neverending sadness (the small
child was his own) when they are behind one that you are reversing.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378669 is a reply to message #378664] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 07:14 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 20 Dec 2018 08:53:05 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2018-12-19, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> > J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 10:06:23 -0500, Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com>
>>>> >> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>> Anyway, kids use phones because they're more fun than their
>>>> >>> alternatives. Not sure how many kids are cowering in fear in NYC.
>>>> >>> More likely the helicopter parents are to blame.
>>>> >>> Not sure how to fix that.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yeah, it's the parents who cower in fear.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > Yes, but when a 12-year-old girl can be kidnapped in front of her house
>>>> > while waiting for the school bus and killed, who's to argue the fear is
>>>> > unjustified?
>>>>
>>>> Anyone with an even superficial understanding of statistics?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Are you willing to play the odds with your kid's life?
>>
>> They're more likely to be hit by lightning. They're far more
>> likely to die in a car crash.
>>
>> Yes, I play the odds every day. Kids are safer today then
>> ever before.
>
> Familys are smaller, you will miss one in three more than one in five,
Well then don't make the kid so miserable that he runs away.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378670 is a reply to message #378662] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 07:25 |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On 20 Dec 2018 08:40:51 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:40:20 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>> If we truly want to save energy and pollution, we need to bring
>> homes and workers closer together to allow transit usage or even
>> walking. But that would require a MAJOR shift in thinking and
>> business policy.
>>
>>
>>> Bigger cars are also usually safer.
>>
>> Not sure about that. I think it more depends on the relative
>> mass of the two vehicles.
>>
>
> Its very hard to see small children when they are just at the door
> of a large vehicle.
At the door generally isn't an issue. It's when they are in front or
behind that it's a problem. There was an incident a few years back
where a kid got off a school bus, walked in front of it, and the bus
drove over him. This resulted in all school buses in CT being
equipped with a device that swings out from the front when the bus
door is opened intended to encourage the kid to walk far enough ahead
of the bus for the driver to be able to see it.
However I am reminded of a time in high school when some moron seemed
to want to commit suicide by me. He's fortunate that I was looking in
my side mirror when he crouched down and walked behind my parked
car--if I hadn't done that he would be dead. Note that this kid was
old enough to have a driver's license.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378676 is a reply to message #378635] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 09:04 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 6:07:03 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> For every kid that gets abducted by a stranger 90 run away from home
>> voluntarily. 1 percent of children who die in the United States are
>> murdered by strangers who abducted them. If you want to protect your
>> kid you really should be working on the other 99 percent.
>
> Unfortunately, the fear over child abduction has been driven, in part,
> by abduction by estranged parents in custody battles.
Actually it's almost 100% driven by mass media.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378677 is a reply to message #378645] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 09:05 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
> On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> If we truly want to save energy and pollution, we need to bring
>> homes and workers closer together to allow transit usage or even
>> walking. But that would require a MAJOR shift in thinking and
>> business policy.
>
> It would also likely require you to move whenever you change jobs.
> If both of you are working, it gets even more complicated unless
> you both work at the same place.
>
> Maybe it's time to return to the joys of the company town...
Google is about to build one in downtown San Jose.....
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378678 is a reply to message #378629] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 09:10 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>
> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
> we need to conserve it. What will happen to our economy if gasoline
> hits $5/gallon? Or if we again have gasoline shortages?
There's a gas station (Shell) on the way to work that has
hi-test (91 octane) listed on their sign a $4.98/gal. Granted,
an outlier ($1.60 higher than costco).
Gas briefly reached $5.00 during the shrub administration as well.
I don't see that price doing anything other than reducing travel
for those on a budget.
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378683 is a reply to message #378632] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 11:39 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:43:07 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:18:29 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>>> Yes, but when a 12-year-old girl can be kidnapped in front of her house
>>> while waiting for the school bus and killed, who's to argue the fear is
>>> unjustified?
>>
>> Anyone with an even superficial understanding of statistics?
>
> Unfortunately, when individuals evaluate personal risk they usually
> do not take an intellectual analysis. They base decisions on
> emotions. So, people avoid doing things where there's a million
> to one risk of harm, yet do things of greater risk due to emotions.
>
> When I was a kid my parents biggest fear (and it was a big one) was
> that I'd get hit by a car. Traffic safety was vigorously taught
> and enforced in schools and at home. There was only a passing mention
> to "don't talk to strangers".
>
> Unfortunately, many communities today are filled with strangers.
> We don't have that neighbor support as we once had. That promotes
> insecurity. Further, people get the idea there is nasty stuff ongoing
> from sensationalist news.
>
> I know many parents who would drive their kids to school and not
> use the school bus. That amazes me. I don't get it.
In spite of cameras on school busses, and required reporting of
trouble, kids still fight on school buses. Kids do get left on school
busses.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378688 is a reply to message #378637] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 11:42 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:24:51 -0500, J. Clarke
<jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 16:55:29 -0800 (PST), hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 6:19:03 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> ??? The best selling vehicle in the United States in 2017 was the
>>> Ford F-Series, second best was the Chevrolet Silverado, third best was
>>> the Dodge Ram series.
>>
>> How many buying those trucks really need it? I dare say a very
>> substantial number rationalize their need and only get it because
>> they want the psychological pleasure of driving a big vehicle.
>
> Nobody has appointed you arbiter of others' needs. If you want to
> live in a society where each gets according to what someone like you
> percieves to be his needs, you might try Cuba.
In every part of the United States I have lived in, buying a V8 pickup
was an ego thing; however, some bought them for their business like
plumbing, electrical, etc.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378689 is a reply to message #378670] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 11:48 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, J Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20 Dec 2018 08:40:51 GMT, maus <mausg@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 3:40:20 AM UTC-5, Peter Flass wrote:
>>>
>>
>> Its very hard to see small children when they are just at the door
>> of a large vehicle.
>
> At the door generally isn't an issue. It's when they are in front or
> behind that it's a problem. There was an incident a few years back
> where a kid got off a school bus, walked in front of it, and the bus
> drove over him. This resulted in all school buses in CT being
> equipped with a device that swings out from the front when the bus
> door is opened intended to encourage the kid to walk far enough ahead
> of the bus for the driver to be able to see it.
The school bus driver in the 'simpsons' seemed to be a person with problems,
and friends around Noo York tell me that is the usual
>
> However I am reminded of a time in high school when some moron seemed
> to want to commit suicide by me. He's fortunate that I was looking in
> my side mirror when he crouched down and walked behind my parked
> car--if I hadn't done that he would be dead. Note that this kid was
> old enough to have a driver's license.
That is why Russians have dash cameras.
--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378690 is a reply to message #376693] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 11:49 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On 20 Dec 2018 09:33:57 GMT, Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> wrote:
> On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Wednesday, December 19, 2018 at 1:06:37 PM UTC-5, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, to be Politicaly Correct, every occurrence of "SUV"
>>> must be preceded by the phrase "gas-guzzling".
>>
>> In an era where extracting oil is more and more expensive
>> and destructive, and comes out of politically unstable countries,
>> we need to conserve it. What will happen to our economy if gasoline
>> hits $5/gallon?
>
> Boo-fucking-hoo. Petrol has been well over $5/gallon in Europe for many
> many years.
The oil glut hasn't driven your prices down ? It has here. We are at
$1.89/gal right now.
--
Jim
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378691 is a reply to message #378677] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 11:51 |
mausg
Messages: 2483
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 2018-12-20, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>> On 2018-12-20, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>
>>> If we truly want to save energy and pollution, we need to bring
>>> homes and workers closer together to allow transit usage or even
>>> walking. But that would require a MAJOR shift in thinking and
>>> business policy.
>>
>> It would also likely require you to move whenever you change jobs.
>> If both of you are working, it gets even more complicated unless
>> you both work at the same place.
>>
>> Maybe it's time to return to the joys of the company town...
>
> Google is about to build one in downtown San Jose.....
I read that sensible people around there are selling [property],
ready to buy back in after the crash.
--
Maus@ireland.com
Opinions offered om any subject:
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| Re: Is LINUX the inheritor of the Earth? [message #378692 is a reply to message #378679] |
Thu, 20 December 2018 11:51 |
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Originally posted by: JimP
On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 14:10:49 GMT, scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal)
wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I think the magic number is supposed to be $10/gal. At that point a lot of
>>> bad things begin to happen to the economy.
>>>
>>
>> Oops, that's oil at $10/bbl. Don't know what this translates to in gas
>> prices.
>
> Something like a quarter a gallon. Unless you mean $100/bbl.
1950s in Texas gasoline was 25 cents per gallon. When it went up to 50
cents people were very upset. Someone predicted on television it might
go up to $1.50 in 2 decades. Yeah, they were a bit off.
--
Jim
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