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Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #314826] Wed, 23 March 2016 05:31 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Neo Fortune

There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #314833 is a reply to message #314826] Wed, 23 March 2016 10:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
osmium is currently offline  osmium
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"Neo Fortune" wrote:

> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms

_The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the ultimate
book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I think you
might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I suggest you spend
a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to focus in a bit more on
what you want to do and then posting a revised question.

If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn one
of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a book on
algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.

The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
volumes have been around for several years..
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #314840 is a reply to message #314833] Wed, 23 March 2016 10:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
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In article <dlfjbeFleicU1@mid.individual.net>,
Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>
>> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>
> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the ultimate
> book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I think you
> might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I suggest you spend
> a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to focus in a bit more on
> what you want to do and then posting a revised question.
>
> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn one
> of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a book on
> algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.
>
> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
> volumes have been around for several years..

These volumes are a tall order for a beginner.

The variuos "software tools" books cover partly the same territory,
but are way better as instructional tools.

Also, as the previus poster said, go learn a few languages.

I had the most benefit from Pascal, just because of its strictness
and clarity (which makes it kind od counterproductive for real projects).

Also I had a lot of benefit from smalltalk, which made me truly
understand object orientation (something that c++ was far removed from).

Stay away from c++, but embrace C for the "high level assembler"
functions. But don't make it your first language.

-- mrr
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #314847 is a reply to message #314826] Wed, 23 March 2016 12:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Walter Banks is currently offline  Walter Banks
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On 23/03/2016 5:31 AM, Neo Fortune wrote:
> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>
There are a lot of algorithm collections on line. Google around and they
will pop up.

w..
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315071 is a reply to message #314833] Tue, 29 March 2016 04:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Neo Fortune

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:17:36 PM UTC, Osmium wrote:
> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>
>> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>
> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the ultimate
> book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I think you
> might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I suggest you spend
> a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to focus in a bit more on
> what you want to do and then posting a revised question.
>
> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn one
> of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a book on
> algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.
>
> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
> volumes have been around for several years..

Thanks...

The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315074 is a reply to message #315071] Tue, 29 March 2016 06:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 01:45:09 -0700, Neo Fortune wrote:

> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:17:36 PM UTC, Osmium wrote:
>> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>>
>>> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>>
>> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the
>> ultimate book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I
>> think you might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I
>> suggest you spend a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to
>> focus in a bit more on what you want to do and then posting a revised
>> question.
>>
>> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn
>> one of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a
>> book on algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.
>>
>> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
>> volumes have been around for several years..
>
> Thanks...
>
> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket

Frankly, it's a bit advanced and mathematical for a beginner. You'd be
better off picking a language (perhaps Python) and then getting a
beginners or Dummies book on it.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315077 is a reply to message #315074] Tue, 29 March 2016 06:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 29 Mar 2016 10:03:55 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 01:45:09 -0700, Neo Fortune wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:17:36 PM UTC, Osmium wrote:
>>> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>>>
>>> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the
>>> ultimate book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I
>>> think you might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I
>>> suggest you spend a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to
>>> focus in a bit more on what you want to do and then posting a revised
>>> question.
>>>
>>> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn
>>> one of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a
>>> book on algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.
>>>
>>> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
>>> volumes have been around for several years..
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>
> Frankly, it's a bit advanced and mathematical for a beginner. You'd be
> better off picking a language (perhaps Python) and then getting a
> beginners or Dummies book on it.

I'd say that depends on whether you want to learn to write programs
or to understand algorithms. Knuth is an amazingly comprehensive academic
study and catalogue of algorithms, a truly wonderful reference. It is
indeed not a tutorial for beginners (or indeed anybody).

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315078 is a reply to message #315077] Tue, 29 March 2016 08:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:50:42 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 29 Mar 2016 10:03:55 GMT Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 01:45:09 -0700, Neo Fortune wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:17:36 PM UTC, Osmium wrote:
>>>> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>>>>
>>>> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the
>>>> ultimate book for serious programmers. The way your post is
>>>> phrased, I think you might be a beginner and so the book might be a
>>>> bit much. I suggest you spend a few hours poking around in Wikipedia
>>>> and try to focus in a bit more on what you want to do and then
>>>> posting a revised question.
>>>>
>>>> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to
>>>> learn one of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so.
>>>> And a book on algorithms requires an ability to understand a
>>>> language.
>>>>
>>>> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first
>>>> three volumes have been around for several years..
>>>
>>> Thanks...
>>>
>>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>
>> Frankly, it's a bit advanced and mathematical for a beginner. You'd be
>> better off picking a language (perhaps Python) and then getting a
>> beginners or Dummies book on it.
>
> I'd say that depends on whether you want to learn to write
programs
> or to understand algorithms. Knuth is an amazingly comprehensive
> academic study and catalogue of algorithms, a truly wonderful reference.
> It is indeed not a tutorial for beginners (or indeed anybody).

I too thought the OP sounded like a beginner.

I find Knuth useful but I've been a computer scientist for nearly 40
years. It's right here on the shelf!




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315079 is a reply to message #315078] Tue, 29 March 2016 08:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 29 Mar 2016 12:25:57 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:50:42 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> I'd say that depends on whether you want to learn to write
> programs
>> or to understand algorithms. Knuth is an amazingly comprehensive
>> academic study and catalogue of algorithms, a truly wonderful reference.
>> It is indeed not a tutorial for beginners (or indeed anybody).
>
> I too thought the OP sounded like a beginner.

I rather suspect so, but I'd hate to discourage anyone from
studying algorithms - far too few ever do.

> I find Knuth useful but I've been a computer scientist for nearly 40
> years. It's right here on the shelf!

The real hope is that the OP will find it fascinating and go on to
create algorithms of wonderous subtlety.

The one problem with Knuth is that you've probably had it on your
shelf for those nearly 40 years - there have been a few new twists on
algorithms and data structures in the meantime, and rather less need for
sort/merge that won't fit in online storage than there used to be.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315080 is a reply to message #315079] Tue, 29 March 2016 09:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:42:07 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 29 Mar 2016 12:25:57 GMT Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:50:42 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> I'd say that depends on whether you want to learn to write
>> programs
>>> or to understand algorithms. Knuth is an amazingly comprehensive
>>> academic study and catalogue of algorithms, a truly wonderful
>>> reference.
>>> It is indeed not a tutorial for beginners (or indeed anybody).
>>
>> I too thought the OP sounded like a beginner.
>
> I rather suspect so, but I'd hate to discourage anyone from
> studying algorithms - far too few ever do.
>
>> I find Knuth useful but I've been a computer scientist for nearly 40
>> years. It's right here on the shelf!
>
> The real hope is that the OP will find it fascinating and go on to
> create algorithms of wonderous subtlety.
>
> The one problem with Knuth is that you've probably had it on your
> shelf for those nearly 40 years - there have been a few new twists on
> algorithms and data structures in the meantime, and rather less need for
> sort/merge that won't fit in online storage than there used to be.

Oh yes, there is stuff in there that I'll never use. I have the 'updated'
edition now but I suspect there were not a lot of changes. Never mind, I
didn't pay for either set!




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315082 is a reply to message #315071] Tue, 29 March 2016 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
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Senior Member
Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:17:36 PM UTC, Osmium wrote:
>> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>>
>>> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>>
>> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the ultimate
>> book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I think you
>> might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I suggest you spend
>> a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to focus in a bit more on
>> what you want to do and then posting a revised question.
>>
>> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn one
>> of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a book on
>> algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.
>>
>> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
>> volumes have been around for several years..
>
> Thanks...
>
> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket

Or Horowitz and Sahni - Fundamentals of Computer Algorithms. Accompanied by
Horowitz and Sahni - Fundamentals of Data Structures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sartaj_Sahni
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315083 is a reply to message #315082] Tue, 29 March 2016 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
osmium is currently offline  osmium
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<scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote in message
news:icvKy.64374$bB1.52056@fx30.iad...
> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 1:17:36 PM UTC, Osmium wrote:
>>> "Neo Fortune" wrote:
>>>
>>>> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms
>>>
>>> _The Art of Computer Programming_ by Donald Knuth is kind of the
>>> ultimate
>>> book for serious programmers. The way your post is phrased, I think you
>>> might be a beginner and so the book might be a bit much. I suggest you
>>> spend
>>> a few hours poking around in Wikipedia and try to focus in a bit more on
>>> what you want to do and then posting a revised question.
>>>
>>> If you truly are a beginner, a better starting point might be to learn
>>> one
>>> of the programming languages. there are a hundred or so. And a book on
>>> algorithms requires an ability to understand a language.
>>>
>>> The book mentioned is a multi-volume work in process, the first three
>>> volumes have been around for several years..
>>
>> Thanks...
>>
>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>
> Or Horowitz and Sahni - Fundamentals of Computer Algorithms. Accompanied
> by
> Horowitz and Sahni - Fundamentals of Data Structures.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sartaj_Sahni

I have that book, too. But that just picks at the one part of algorithms
typically taught in a Computer Science course, data structures.
*Algorithms* includes a lot more than data structures.
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315087 is a reply to message #315080] Tue, 29 March 2016 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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On 29 Mar 2016 13:09:59 GMT
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> wrote:

> Oh yes, there is stuff in there that I'll never use. I have the 'updated'
> edition now but I suspect there were not a lot of changes. Never mind, I
> didn't pay for either set!

Jammy git!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315090 is a reply to message #315087] Tue, 29 March 2016 11:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
apl.explorer is currently offline  apl.explorer
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Many might disagree, but APL is an
excellent language to start with. It was
the first language i sank my teeth into.
Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
There are a few free versions out there.

-- William Gallant
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315106 is a reply to message #315079] Tue, 29 March 2016 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2016-03-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> The one problem with Knuth is that you've probably had it on your
> shelf for those nearly 40 years - there have been a few new twists on
> algorithms and data structures in the meantime, and rather less need for
> sort/merge that won't fit in online storage than there used to be.

Still, a lot of people could benefit from learning the things about
sorting and merging that we took for granted way back when. Most people
don't know nearly enough about them - I place a lot of the blame for this
on the shenanigans that Excel has played with people's data.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315122 is a reply to message #315071] Tue, 29 March 2016 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:

> Thanks...
>
> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket

Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
(near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
C code -- on the Osborne.

Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.

But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
hacker.

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315125 is a reply to message #315122] Tue, 29 March 2016 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2016-03-29, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:

> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Thanks...
>>
>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>
> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
> C code -- on the Osborne.
>
> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>
> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
> hacker.

I've always considered myself a professional hacker. I dropped out of
the university computer science program and got a job in the Real World
pushing bits around - and somehow have always managed to find work.
I'd love to read Knuth some day - I'm sure there's a lot of fascinating
material there. But in the meantime, I'll write elegant little algorithms
the day the vendors who provide the data I'm crunching decide to write
data structures that are amenable to something other than hacking.
As I used to say at the height of the Structured Programming craze:
"Structured Programming is of limited use against unstructured applications."

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315134 is a reply to message #315090] Tue, 29 March 2016 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
sigma.research@gmail.com says...
>
> Many might disagree, but APL is an
> excellent language to start with. It was
> the first language i sank my teeth into.
> Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
> There are a few free versions out there.

Yep. Trouble is that if you learn to think in APL then other languages
become frustrating.
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315141 is a reply to message #315134] Wed, 30 March 2016 01:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
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On 2016-03-30, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
> sigma.research@gmail.com says...
>
>> Many might disagree, but APL is an
>> excellent language to start with. It was
>> the first language i sank my teeth into.
>> Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
>> There are a few free versions out there.
>
> Yep. Trouble is that if you learn to think in APL then other languages
> become frustrating.

Once I learned to think in assembly language, any high-level language
became frustrating.

Now I think in C - and high-level languages are still frustrating.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315142 is a reply to message #315106] Wed, 30 March 2016 01:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Senior Member
On 29 Mar 2016 17:14:33 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2016-03-29, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> The one problem with Knuth is that you've probably had it on
>> your shelf for those nearly 40 years - there have been a few new twists
>> on algorithms and data structures in the meantime, and rather less need
>> for sort/merge that won't fit in online storage than there used to be.
>
> Still, a lot of people could benefit from learning the things about
> sorting and merging that we took for granted way back when. Most people

Yes - although the techniques for handling sort/merge with n tape
drives and m tapes is perhaps a little esoteric these days.

> don't know nearly enough about them - I place a lot of the blame for this
> on the shenanigans that Excel has played with people's data.

Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do with
a grounding in basic computer science.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315146 is a reply to message #315141] Wed, 30 March 2016 04:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 05:13:58 +0000, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2016-03-30, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
>> sigma.research@gmail.com says...
>>
>>> Many might disagree, but APL is an excellent language to start with.
>>> It was the first language i sank my teeth into.
>>> Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
>>> There are a few free versions out there.
>>
>> Yep. Trouble is that if you learn to think in APL then other languages
>> become frustrating.
>
> Once I learned to think in assembly language, any high-level language
> became frustrating.
>
> Now I think in C - and high-level languages are still frustrating.

Same here. My first program was in Manchester Autocode (years later, my
supervisor was one of its developers, although I didn't know that at the
time).

I then learned BASIC in my university leectronics degree first year, and
immediately taught myself the mainframe assembler. Then FORTRAN, more
assembler, then many years using BCPL (which makes C look safe and high
level).




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315151 is a reply to message #315141] Wed, 30 March 2016 07:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: J. Clarke

In article <ndfnam014op@news4.newsguy.com>, cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid
says...
>
> On 2016-03-30, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
>> sigma.research@gmail.com says...
>>
>>> Many might disagree, but APL is an
>>> excellent language to start with. It was
>>> the first language i sank my teeth into.
>>> Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
>>> There are a few free versions out there.
>>
>> Yep. Trouble is that if you learn to think in APL then other languages
>> become frustrating.
>
> Once I learned to think in assembly language, any high-level language
> became frustrating.
>
> Now I think in C - and high-level languages are still frustrating.

Different kind of frustrating.

In APL if you are using a loop you are probably doing something wrong.
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315152 is a reply to message #315122] Wed, 30 March 2016 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3946
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> writes:
>
> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Thanks...
>>
>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>
> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
> C code -- on the Osborne.
>
> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.

Instead of K&R, I'd recommend K&P:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Programming_St yle
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315153 is a reply to message #315152] Wed, 30 March 2016 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:01:58 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> writes:
>>
>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Thanks...
>>>
>>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>
>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned to
>> program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1. Then
>> I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode (near
>> the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write C code
>> -- on the Osborne.
>>
>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
>> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>
> Instead of K&R, I'd recommend K&P:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elements_of_Programming_St yle

As an aside from programming, has anyone ever read 'The Elements of
Networking Style'? Not always an easy read, but a demolition of OSI as
opposed to TCP/IP etc. Details linked from the author details here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_A._Padlipsky




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315158 is a reply to message #314826] Wed, 30 March 2016 09:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stephen Wolstenholme is currently offline  Stephen Wolstenholme
Messages: 231
Registered: December 2011
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Senior Member
On Wed, 23 Mar 2016 02:31:29 -0700 (PDT), Neo Fortune
<serenity3043@gmail.com> wrote:

> There's One In Particular That Covers Different Algorithms

It all depends where you are starting. I can't recommend any books
that cover Algorithms as I always found it easier to draw a flow
chart. But then I was a computer engineer before I wrote any computer
programs so that could have influenced the way I work. I was thinking
machine code first.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315166 is a reply to message #315122] Wed, 30 March 2016 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jmfbahciv is currently offline  jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
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Senior Member
Mike Spencer wrote:
>
> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Thanks...
>>
>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>
> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
> C code -- on the Osborne.
>
> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>
> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
> hacker.
>

One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install
an emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10
machines would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't
recall DEC documenting the algorithms developed for monitor
(kernals) and device/network contollers and devices.
The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors
and buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's
bit bucket).

GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
addresses, data, code and bytes.

/BAH
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315167 is a reply to message #315166] Wed, 30 March 2016 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3946
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Thanks...
>>>
>>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>
>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
>> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
>> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
>> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
>> C code -- on the Osborne.
>>
>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
>> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>>
>> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
>> hacker.
>>
>
> One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install
> an emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10
> machines would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't
> recall DEC documenting the algorithms developed for monitor
> (kernals) and device/network contollers and devices.
> The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors
> and buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's
> bit bucket).
>
> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
> the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
> stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
> gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
> addresses, data, code and bytes.

why bother with ancient architectures, when one can obtain
much more relevent data using modern processors and software?

Everything you describe above applies to modern processors.

replace "ddt" with "gdb".
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315172 is a reply to message #315167] Wed, 30 March 2016 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Peter Flass is currently offline  Peter Flass
Messages: 7976
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Thanks...
>>>>
>>>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>>
>>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
>>> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
>>> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
>>> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
>>> C code -- on the Osborne.
>>>
>>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
>>> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>>>
>>> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
>>> hacker.
>>>
>>
>> One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install
>> an emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10
>> machines would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't
>> recall DEC documenting the algorithms developed for monitor
>> (kernals) and device/network contollers and devices.
>> The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors
>> and buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's
>> bit bucket).
>>
>> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
>> the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
>> stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
>> gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
>> addresses, data, code and bytes.
>
> why bother with ancient architectures, when one can obtain
> much more relevent data using modern processors and software?
>
> Everything you describe above applies to modern processors.
>
> replace "ddt" with "gdb".
>

I wouldn't recommend x86 for anyone just trying to learn computers at the
machine language level. I don't know ARM, that might be better, but most
modern architectures are much too complex. I don't care much for the PDP8,
but the -11 might not be a bad place to start.

OTOH, OP said the person wanted to learn programming, so s/he should
probably start with an HLL. That's one thing to be said for BASIC, the "B"
stands for "beginner's" for a reason. You can learn most of the basics of
programming without all the complexity. Interpreters are available for
free for most systems.


--
Pete
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315176 is a reply to message #315167] Wed, 30 March 2016 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:14:21 +0000, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>
>>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> Thanks...
>>>>
>>>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>>
>>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
>>> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
>>> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
>>> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
>>> C code -- on the Osborne.
>>>
>>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are,
>>> IMHO K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>>>
>>> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
>>> hacker.
>>>
>>>
>> One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install an
>> emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10 machines
>> would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't recall DEC
>> documenting the algorithms developed for monitor (kernals) and
>> device/network contollers and devices.
>> The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors and
>> buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's bit
>> bucket).
>>
>> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access the entire
>> "app" the user has pulled into core. Just stepping through the
>> locations using the <LF> character gives a nice introduction to
>> addresses, contents of addresses, data, code and bytes.
>
> why bother with ancient architectures, when one can obtain much more
> relevent data using modern processors and software?
>
> Everything you describe above applies to modern processors.
>
> replace "ddt" with "gdb".

Yes, but the PDP-8 is nice and simple (only 8 opcodes) and it's easy to
understand. A good teaching system.

I have an SBC-6120.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315179 is a reply to message #315151] Wed, 30 March 2016 12:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5052
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2016-03-30, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

> In article <ndfnam014op@news4.newsguy.com>, cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid
> says...
>
>> On 2016-03-30, J. Clarke <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <fd704521-012a-4bdc-acec-c83269e46c4e@googlegroups.com>,
>>> sigma.research@gmail.com says...
>>>
>>>> Many might disagree, but APL is an
>>>> excellent language to start with. It was
>>>> the first language i sank my teeth into.
>>>> Easy to learn, but a lifetime to master.
>>>> There are a few free versions out there.
>>>
>>> Yep. Trouble is that if you learn to think in APL then other languages
>>> become frustrating.
>>
>> Once I learned to think in assembly language, any high-level language
>> became frustrating.
>>
>> Now I think in C - and high-level languages are still frustrating.
>
> Different kind of frustrating.
>
> In APL if you are using a loop you are probably doing something wrong.

Not in my kind of applications. Are you saying that APL isn't suited to
sequential processing of records in a file? (Database gurus notwithstanding,
sequential processing is still the most efficient way to scan a million-record
file.)

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315186 is a reply to message #315172] Wed, 30 March 2016 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
scott is currently offline  scott
Messages: 3946
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:

>>> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
>>> the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
>>> stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
>>> gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
>>> addresses, data, code and bytes.

>> Everything you describe above applies to modern processors.
>>
>> replace "ddt" with "gdb".
>>
>
> I wouldn't recommend x86 for anyone just trying to learn computers at the
> machine language level. I don't know ARM, that might be better, but most
> modern architectures are much too complex. I don't care much for the PDP8,
> but the -11 might not be a bad place to start.

I think I disagree with this. x86 is pretty simple from the
point of view of the beginner, and far better than learning on a
segmented system like PDP-11 or a field-based system such as PDP-8.
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315222 is a reply to message #315176] Thu, 31 March 2016 01:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
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Senior Member
Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> writes:

> Yes, but the PDP-8 is nice and simple (only 8 opcodes) and it's easy to
> understand. A good teaching system.

That's why I'm grateful that, as a middle-aged newbie, I started on an
Osborne 1. Lots of op codes on the Z80 but the overall architecture
was, by current standards, rediculously simple. Learned Basic, C, Z80
assembler. The compiled C code was simple enough that I could work out
ways to lie to the compiler, then patch the executable to deal with C
source that made the compiler exhaust memory.

That didn'tmake me a wizard hacker and as, now, an old guy, I have
ongoing struggles with my Slackware Linux systems but all that larval
mode stuff on the Osborne gave me a valuable grasp of how, in
principle, things work under the hood.

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315223 is a reply to message #315142] Thu, 31 March 2016 02:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike Spencer is currently offline  Mike Spencer
Messages: 953
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do with
> a grounding in basic computer science.

It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
eccentrics. A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.

Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
"simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
same time. This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
an article of commerce. I thought he was supposed to have spent the
preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

--
Michael Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada .~.
/V\
/( )\
^^-^^
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315225 is a reply to message #315223] Thu, 31 March 2016 02:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Charlie Gibbs is currently offline  Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5052
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On 2016-03-31, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:

> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> same time. This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> an article of commerce. I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.

--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315226 is a reply to message #315223] Thu, 31 March 2016 02:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
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Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300
Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:

>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>> with a grounding in basic computer science.
>
> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
> eccentrics. A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.
>
> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
> to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
> same time. This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
> an article of commerce. I thought he was supposed to have spent the
> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."

That is alarming.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315228 is a reply to message #315225] Thu, 31 March 2016 03:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ahem A Rivet's Shot is currently offline  Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Messages: 4477
Registered: January 2012
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Senior Member
On 31 Mar 2016 06:40:45 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2016-03-31, Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca> wrote:
>
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was appalled
>> to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>> same time. This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>> an article of commerce. I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>
> That's why, after three years getting "a grounding in basic computer
> science", I realized how little computer science had to do with the
> Real World - so I got a programming job and dropped out of school.

OTOH I spent a year getting a grounding in basic computer science
and learned a lot that has proved useful over the years (and quite a lot
that hasn't). I also dropped out, but that wasn't down to the course or a
desire to get out into the real world - there was a woman and a breakup. It
was just as well that I already had experience on projects people had heard
of by the time I left college.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315232 is a reply to message #315172] Thu, 31 March 2016 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Neo Fortune

On Wednesday, March 30, 2016 at 5:15:01 PM UTC+1, Peter Flass wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Thanks...
>>>> >
>>>> > The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>>>
>>>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
>>>> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
>>>> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
>>>> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
>>>> C code -- on the Osborne.
>>>>
>>>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
>>>> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>>>>
>>>> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
>>>> hacker.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install
>>> an emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10
>>> machines would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't
>>> recall DEC documenting the algorithms developed for monitor
>>> (kernals) and device/network contollers and devices.
>>> The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors
>>> and buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's
>>> bit bucket).
>>>
>>> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
>>> the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
>>> stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
>>> gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
>>> addresses, data, code and bytes.
>>
>> why bother with ancient architectures, when one can obtain
>> much more relevent data using modern processors and software?
>>
>> Everything you describe above applies to modern processors.
>>
>> replace "ddt" with "gdb".
>>
>
> I wouldn't recommend x86 for anyone just trying to learn computers at the
> machine language level. I don't know ARM, that might be better, but most
> modern architectures are much too complex. I don't care much for the PDP8,
> but the -11 might not be a bad place to start.
>
> --
> Pete

I Remember In The Late 80s Playing Populous On The Amiga

An Article In A Magazine By Peter Molyneux Detailed How He Could Train Anyone To Program A Game In 68K Assembler

http://mrjester.hapisan.com/04_MC68/
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315233 is a reply to message #315166] Wed, 30 March 2016 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <PM00052F44B0C5159C@aca40b23.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>
>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Thanks...
>>>
>>> The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>
>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
>> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
>> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
>> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
>> C code -- on the Osborne.
>>
>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
>> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>>
>> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
>> hacker.
>>
>
> One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install
> an emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10
> machines would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't
> recall DEC documenting the algorithms developed for monitor
> (kernals) and device/network contollers and devices.
> The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors
> and buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's
> bit bucket).
>
> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
> the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
> stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
> gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
> addresses, data, code and bytes.

Well, provided you have read access to the .exe.

And, the early compiler output was pretty readable as
disassembled code. This was less and less the case for the
higher optimisations levels as the versions kept coming, and
it is not the case at all with modern x86/thumb code.

Linux or FreeBSD are in themselves pretty good programming
platforms, given a few dozen repository downloads from a
standard install. They even have smalltalk.

-- mrr
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315234 is a reply to message #315172] Wed, 30 March 2016 14:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morten Reistad is currently offline  Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
Senior Member
In article <950348948.481046768.067116.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org>,
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>> Mike Spencer wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Neo Fortune <serenity3043@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> > Thanks...
>>>> >
>>>> > The Art of Computer Programming By Donald Knuth Sounds The Ticket
>>>>
>>>> Overlooking those who believe that Basic isn't programming, I learned
>>>> to program dicking around with Basic on an Apple ][ and an Osborne 1.
>>>> Then I read K&R straight through until my head threatened to explode
>>>> (near the end, somewhere around struct bitfields) and started to write
>>>> C code -- on the Osborne.
>>>>
>>>> Once you have a basic (not Basic) notion of what bits & bytes are, IMHO
>>>> K&R will get you doing interesting things pretty quick.
>>>>
>>>> But then, I'm an amateur (in the best sense), not a professional
>>>> hacker.
>>>>
>>>
>>> One way to understand programming bits and bytes is to install
>>> an emulator for the PDP-8 and play with it. Graduating to PDP-10
>>> machines would offer a more complex OS and services. I don't
>>> recall DEC documenting the algorithms developed for monitor
>>> (kernals) and device/network contollers and devices.
>>> The latter also shows how to do memrory management of all flavors
>>> and buffered mode I/O (which was completely missing from MSoft's
>>> bit bucket).
>>>
>>> GETting any EXE on a PDP-10, then DDTing it, gives access
>>> the entire "app" the user has pulled into core. Just
>>> stepping through the locations using the <LF> character
>>> gives a nice introduction to addresses, contents of
>>> addresses, data, code and bytes.
>>
>> why bother with ancient architectures, when one can obtain
>> much more relevent data using modern processors and software?
>>
>> Everything you describe above applies to modern processors.
>>
>> replace "ddt" with "gdb".
>>
>
> I wouldn't recommend x86 for anyone just trying to learn computers at the
> machine language level. I don't know ARM, that might be better, but most
> modern architectures are much too complex. I don't care much for the PDP8,
> but the -11 might not be a bad place to start.

ARM, unoptimised, is a lot easier to read than x86, almost to the level
of the pdp10. The problem comes with the thumb/thumb2 "compressed" instructions,
which is essential to all modern arm optimisation.

> OTOH, OP said the person wanted to learn programming, so s/he should
> probably start with an HLL. That's one thing to be said for BASIC, the "B"
> stands for "beginner's" for a reason. You can learn most of the basics of
> programming without all the complexity. Interpreters are available for
> free for most systems.

Dabble around in basic, yes. Or even a *n*x shell. But do go for a heavily
structured language too.

-- mrr
Re: Which Books Can You Recommend For Learning Computer Programming? [message #315238 is a reply to message #315226] Thu, 31 March 2016 06:39 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: Bob Eager

On Thu, 31 Mar 2016 07:37:18 +0100, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:

> On 31 Mar 2016 03:10:59 -0300 Mike Spencer <mspencer@tallships.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> Most programmers I have met in the last decade or so could do
>>> with a grounding in basic computer science.
>>
>> It's worthy of note that early on, programmers were engineers,
>> mathematicians, physical science types, musicians and heterogeneous
>> eccentrics. A lot of the jargon emerged from those backgrounds.
>>
>> Twenty-five years ago, when I had occasion to work next to an
>> about-graduate comp sci major at a university biz school, I was
>> appalled to learn that he thought that if Unix ran multiple programs
>> "simultaneously" that they were really executing their op codes at the
>> same time. This was long before multi-CPU or multi-core machines were
>> an article of commerce. I thought he was supposed to have spent the
>> preceding 4 years getting "a grounding in basic computer science."
>
> That is alarming.

Although I was teaching my students about multiprocessors over 30 yaers
ago (having done multiprocessing code for an operating system). So at
least mine knew the difference.




--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

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