| End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287729] |
Tue, 14 April 2015 15:03  |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705. (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also, there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service, and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used some tubes as well..
Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287733 is a reply to message #287729] |
Tue, 14 April 2015 17:17  |
dave[1][2]
Messages: 119
Registered: January 2012
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On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>
> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705. (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also, there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service, and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used some tubes as well.
>
> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>
>
>
According to :-
https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
an antique in 1964 .....
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287734 is a reply to message #287733] |
Tue, 14 April 2015 17:50 |
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Originally posted by: Whiskers
On 2015-04-14, David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM
>> computers in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive
>> power consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm
>> surprised there were that many units. Note that a computer had
>> thousands of tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to
>> identify weak or failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most
>> have been quite costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other
>> vendors.
>>
>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and
>> 705. (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.)
>> Also, there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in
>> service, and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may
>> have used some tubes as well.
>>
>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>
>>
>>
> According to :-
>
> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
>
> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought
> such an antique in 1964 .....
Presumably someone who had software for it to use.
The one now in the Science Museum in London (which still gets switched
on from time to time) has this history:-
This computer, the 25th Pegasus machine to be built, was delivered to
Ferranti's agent in Sweden in 1959 before being returned to their West
Gorton factory in Manchester in 1960 for computer-aided design tasks.
In 1963 it was donated to University College London for x- ray
crystallographic research, and in 1983 it was donated to the Science
Museum. Re-commissioned by ICL in 1984, it was returned to the Science
Museum in 1988. The photograph shows the computer with a member of the
Computer Conservation Society in 2000.
< http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/images/i056/10323691.aspx?ke ywords=ferranti+pegasus>
Thermionic valves are actually pretty reliable; I've known those in
portable radios to last for decades, and they get much rougher use than
in a computer that is seldom powered down let alone moved or knocked.
--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287736 is a reply to message #287733] |
Tue, 14 April 2015 18:13 |
Peter Flass
Messages: 8375
Registered: December 2011
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David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers
>> in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power
>> consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised
>> there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of
>> tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or failed
>> tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite costly. I
>> don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>
>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705.
>> (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also,
>> there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service,
>> and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used some tubes as well.
>>
>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>
>>
>>
> According to :-
>
> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
>
> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
> an antique in 1964 .....
Probably someone who already had one or two and needed more horespower or a
backup system.
--
Pete
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287741 is a reply to message #287733] |
Tue, 14 April 2015 18:20 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0100, David Wade wrote:
> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers
>> in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power
>> consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised
>> there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of
>> tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or
>> failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite
>> costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>
>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705.
>> (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also,
>> there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service,
>> and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used
>> some tubes as well.
>>
>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>
>>
>>
> According to :-
>
> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-
computer/
>
> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
> an antique in 1964 .....
I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
Running the CEGB control centre in London.
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287744 is a reply to message #287741] |
Tue, 14 April 2015 18:39 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
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On 2015-04-14, Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0100, David Wade wrote:
>
>> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers
>>> in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power
>>> consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised
>>> there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of
>>> tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or
>>> failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite
>>> costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>>
>>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705.
>>> (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also,
>>> there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service,
>>> and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used
>>> some tubes as well.
>>>
>>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>
>> According to :-
>>
>> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
>>
>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
>> an antique in 1964 .....
>
> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>
> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
The 026 keypunch did indeed use tubes. When you switched it on you had to
wait for it to warm up, just like a tube-based radio or TV.
Remember what a novelty transistor radios were? Switch it on and it's
working instantly - no waiting.
And now we've come full circle. Not only do computers take time to boot
but so do TV sets and Blu-Ray players. I tell people they're warming up.
Moore's Law is no match for writers of bloatware.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287773 is a reply to message #287741] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 02:31 |
Bob Martin
Messages: 157
Registered: August 2012
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in 644652 20150414 232007 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>>
>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
>> an antique in 1964 .....
>
> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>
> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
Where was that, Bob? I was an IBM CE at CEGB in the 60s and at the
time of the move from Gordon House to Bankside the DP room was
centred on a 360/75.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287776 is a reply to message #287734] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 03:01 |
Stan Barr
Messages: 598
Registered: December 2011
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On 14 Apr 2015 21:50:32 GMT, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
>
> Thermionic valves are actually pretty reliable; I've known those in
> portable radios to last for decades, and they get much rougher use than
> in a computer that is seldom powered down let alone moved or knocked.
>
Some of the pre-amp valves in my Fender guitar amp are the 1975
originals. This amp has been thrown around in vans and clubs most of
its life so they must be quite rugged.
--
Stan Barr plan.b@bluesomatic.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287777 is a reply to message #287744] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 03:07 |
Stan Barr
Messages: 598
Registered: December 2011
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On 14 Apr 2015 22:39:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> Remember what a novelty transistor radios were? Switch it on and it's
> working instantly - no waiting.
>
I remember when transistors were so expensive I couldn't afford them
with my pocket money!
My first exposure to designing digital circuits was with valves - a
pulse-counting VHF-FM radio, couldn't afford vhf capable transistors...
--
Stan Barr plan.b@bluesomatic.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287781 is a reply to message #287729] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 03:47 |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
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On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 1:03:23 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
I remember fondly reading an issue of Datamation with a big article about how the last firm to be using an IBM 704 computer was finally sending it to the scrap heap - to be replaced by a surplus IBM 7090 rather than something contemporary.
I think it was from the early 1970s. Possibly very shortly after October, 1973.
John Savard
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287782 is a reply to message #287773] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 04:09 |
gareth
Messages: 598
Registered: June 2012
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"Bob Martin" <bob.martin@excite.com> wrote in message
news:cp6eujFsjj7U4@mid.individual.net...
> in 644652 20150414 232007 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
>>> an antique in 1964 .....
>> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
> Where was that, Bob? I was an IBM CE at CEGB in the 60s and at the
> time of the move from Gordon House to Bankside the DP room was
> centred on a 360/75.
Very interesting. I was in the SW region Scientific Services Dept based at
Portishead Power Station in the early 70s.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287784 is a reply to message #287733] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 04:27 |
Stephen Wolstenholme
Messages: 231
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0100, David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com>
wrote:
> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>
>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705. (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also, there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service, and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used some tubes as well.
>>
>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>
>>
>>
> According to :-
>
> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
>
> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
> an antique in 1964 .....
Anyone who wanted to run the same scientific software and could not
afford the Atlas replacement as it needed a whole building!
Steve
--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287786 is a reply to message #287773] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 04:49 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:31:47 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:
> in 644652 20150414 232007 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>
>>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought
>>> such an antique in 1964 .....
>>
>> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>>
>> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
>
> Where was that, Bob? I was an IBM CE at CEGB in the 60s and at the time
> of the move from Gordon House to Bankside the DP room was centred on a
> 360/75.
Somewhere in London near the river. But not Bankside.
It definitely wasn't an IBM box...I'd have noticed. They did say they
were very old and being phased out. Possibly it was summer of 1973.
There were three machines: live, backup and development. The development
machine was being used for spares..!
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287787 is a reply to message #287744] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 04:52 |
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Originally posted by: Bob Eager
On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 09:13:48 +0100, gareth wrote:
> One of the last valves incorporated into portable sets was the DF91.
I remember having a four valve portable using the DF91 and its siblings.
It ran on mains, too, and I probably used it until about 1970 (when I
inherited a tatty large transistor radio that used TWO PP9s..!
--
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287789 is a reply to message #287786] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 05:35 |
Stephen Wolstenholme
Messages: 231
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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On 15 Apr 2015 08:49:58 GMT, Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 07:31:47 +0000, Bob Martin wrote:
>
>> in 644652 20150414 232007 Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought
>>>> such an antique in 1964 .....
>>>
>>> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>>>
>>> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
>>
>> Where was that, Bob? I was an IBM CE at CEGB in the 60s and at the time
>> of the move from Gordon House to Bankside the DP room was centred on a
>> 360/75.
>
> Somewhere in London near the river. But not Bankside.
>
> It definitely wasn't an IBM box...I'd have noticed. They did say they
> were very old and being phased out. Possibly it was summer of 1973.
>
> There were three machines: live, backup and development. The development
> machine was being used for spares..!
It sounds like a similar setup to the GEGB up here in the North. They
were not IBM but they were quite close in a way. I remember working at
the CEGB computer centre in Cheadle. They had two English Electric
4/50 which were clones of the RCA Spectra 70 which were based on IBM
360.
Steve
--
Neural Network Software for Windows http://www.npsnn.com
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287796 is a reply to message #287744] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 09:12 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2015-04-14, Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0100, David Wade wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers
>>>> in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power
>>>> consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised
>>>> there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of
>>>> tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or
>>>> failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite
>>>> costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>>>
>>>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705.
>>>> (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also,
>>>> there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service,
>>>> and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used
>>>> some tubes as well.
>>>>
>>>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>>
>>> According to :-
>>>
>>> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-comp
uter/
>>>
>>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
>>> an antique in 1964 .....
>>
>> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>>
>> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
>
> The 026 keypunch did indeed use tubes. When you switched it on you had to
> wait for it to warm up, just like a tube-based radio or TV.
>
> Remember what a novelty transistor radios were? Switch it on and it's
> working instantly - no waiting.
>
> And now we've come full circle. Not only do computers take time to boot
> but so do TV sets and Blu-Ray players. I tell people they're warming up.
>
> Moore's Law is no match for writers of bloatware.
And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
they had an ad selling LP records.
/BAH
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287805 is a reply to message #287796] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 10:25 |
Stan Barr
Messages: 598
Registered: December 2011
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On 15 Apr 2015 13:12:03 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
> And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
> they had an ad selling LP records.
Big revival in progress with vinyl. I recently dug out my old deck
and bought a couple of new albums*. The quality is a lot better than I
remember with direct metal master cutting and 180gm virgin vynyl!
There's even a studio (in Switzerland I think) that records the old
way: direct to disk using valve mixers etc. No tape and certainly
*no* digital electronics!
* Rolling Stones with Muddy Waters (1981) and Etta James "Tell Mama"
(1967).
--
Stan Barr plan.b@bluesomatic.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287808 is a reply to message #287729] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 11:25 |
rpw3
Messages: 191
Registered: May 2013
Karma: 0
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<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
+---------------
| Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
+---------------
The Royal Precision/Librascope LGP-30 was a vacuum tube machine,
with 113 tubes and 1350 1N67 & 1N68 diodes[1], with the tubes
implementing 15 flip-flops, 6 inverters, and 6 cathode followers
[non-inverting buffers], an amazingly small number of flops for
a general-purpose computer! O.k., so it was a bit-serial machine,
and the 4096 words of main memory was a fixed-head-per-track drum.
But still...
Anyway, the Emory University Chemistry Dept. had one[2] that
was still running as of mid-1970.
-Rob
[1] Wikipedia says 1450 diodes, but I have a copy of the
maintenance manual, and it says 1350.
[2] See my earlier posts here about some hardware hacking
I did on that LGP-30.
-----
Rob Warnock <rpw3@rpw3.org>
627 26th Avenue <http://rpw3.org/>
San Mateo, CA 94403
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287809 is a reply to message #287796] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 11:44 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 9:11:55 AM UTC-4, jmfbahciv wrote:
> And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
> they had an ad selling LP records.
recent article in the paper said vinyl is popular.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287816 is a reply to message #287803] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 12:47 |
scott
Messages: 4239
Registered: February 2012
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Stephen Wolstenholme <steve@easynn.com> writes:
> On 15 Apr 2015 13:12:03 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
>> they had an ad selling LP records.
>
> Some people prefer the sound and so buy LP records. Apparently LP
> sales are increasing. I gave my LP collection and turntable away years
> ago.
>
I'm planning on taking my collection up to "Needle to the Groove" in
Niles soon - I can get between USD5 and USD25[*] each for most of my
vinyl (ricepaper inner sleeves, poly outer sleeves, excellent
condition, played only on a B&O turntable).
[*] Test pressings, direct-to-disk masters, and MFSL releases.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287822 is a reply to message #287805] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 13:38 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Stan Barr wrote:
> On 15 Apr 2015 13:12:03 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
>> they had an ad selling LP records.
>
> Big revival in progress with vinyl. I recently dug out my old deck
> and bought a couple of new albums*. The quality is a lot better than I
> remember with direct metal master cutting and 180gm virgin vynyl!
>
> There's even a studio (in Switzerland I think) that records the old
> way: direct to disk using valve mixers etc. No tape and certainly
> *no* digital electronics!
>
> * Rolling Stones with Muddy Waters (1981) and Etta James "Tell Mama"
> (1967).
>
So those aren't really "new" records. I wsa going to say, even if I was
interested in buying records, nothing new is coming out that I'd want.
On the other hand, one local pressing plant, that was doing good business
(but I think was a long existing plant that had been bought by a newer
company) they shut down a few months ago, too successful. In order to
keep at it, they'd have to buy new equipment, and they didn't have the
money. So they sold off their eqipment, it probably going to the US.
Michael
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287823 is a reply to message #287803] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 13:41 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On 15 Apr 2015 13:12:03 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
>> they had an ad selling LP records.
>
> Some people prefer the sound and so buy LP records. Apparently LP
> sales are increasing. I gave my LP collection and turntable away years
> ago.
>
But there seems to be a mix that's driving the trend.
Apparently some want the cover art, so they rush to get the vinyl, but
they aren't playing the records. The album is treated like a coupon to
get the digital download, that can be played on their MP3 player.
I'm not sure how much that drives the trend, but I would think that
current music (other than classical or jazz) being released on vinyl might
mostly fit that category. Records never went away, but for most kids,
they don't have much experience with them. I'm not sure "sound" is the
factor bringing them, it can be an affectation, like a smoking jacket.
Michael
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287825 is a reply to message #287777] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 13:48 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Stan Barr wrote:
> On 14 Apr 2015 22:39:51 GMT, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Remember what a novelty transistor radios were? Switch it on and it's
>> working instantly - no waiting.
>>
>
> I remember when transistors were so expensive I couldn't afford them
> with my pocket money!
> My first exposure to designing digital circuits was with valves - a
> pulse-counting VHF-FM radio, couldn't afford vhf capable transistors...
>
I've seen that concept, in QST from about 1947, just after the war. It
came out of GE. The idea being that the FM channels were space enough
that an image for a very low IF wouldn't be a problem, so you just convert
down to 100KHz or whatever, and then use an RC coupled IF amp/limiter, and
then the pulse counting detector.
Oddly, I first saw the concept in an early sixties GE semiconductor
manual, the one with a bunch of sample circuits for tunnel diodes. It wsa
a neat concept then (and when i actually saw the book in the mid
seventies).
But then later I came across the QST article, and realized that the GE
book had just updated the concept with semiconductors.
IN the early seventies when I started building things, there were lots of
"computer boards" on the surplus market, I have no idea in retrospect if
they were from computers or not. But lots of silicon transistors, worth
the 99cents or whatever the board cost.
Michael
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287830 is a reply to message #287784] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 14:57 |
dave[1][2]
Messages: 119
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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On 15/04/2015 09:27, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0100, David Wade <dave.g4ugm@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>>
>>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705. (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also, there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service, and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used some tubes as well.
>>>
>>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> According to :-
>>
>> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
>>
>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
>> an antique in 1964 .....
>
> Anyone who wanted to run the same scientific software and could not
> afford the Atlas replacement as it needed a whole building!
>
> Steve
>
I guess, but it obviosly had limited life, and must have been very
expensive to buy and run. With a 300Khz (I think) clock speed, and being
totally serial. Only about 100 words of RAM in delay lines and a small
drum for mass storage.
Dave
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287835 is a reply to message #287776] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 16:31 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Stan Barr" <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote in message
news:slrnmis370.8hn.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de...
> On 14 Apr 2015 21:50:32 GMT, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thermionic valves are actually pretty reliable; I've known those in
>> portable radios to last for decades, and they get much rougher use than
>> in a computer that is seldom powered down let alone moved or knocked.
>>
>
> Some of the pre-amp valves in my Fender guitar amp are the 1975
> originals. This amp has been thrown around in vans and clubs most of
> its life so they must be quite rugged.
>
From the schematics I have seen of Fender guitar amps, the pre-amp tubes are
almost always 12AX7 dual triodes. Fender must have bought these by the
ton!!!
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287836 is a reply to message #287744] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 16:33 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Charlie Gibbs" <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote in message
news:mgk4vn0eer@news3.newsguy.com...
> On 2015-04-14, Bob Eager <news0005@eager.cx> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:17:46 +0100, David Wade wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/04/2015 20:03, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers
>>>> in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power
>>>> consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised
>>>> there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of
>>>> tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or
>>>> failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite
>>>> costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>>>>
>>>> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705.
>>>> (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also,
>>>> there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service,
>>>> and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used
>>>> some tubes as well.
>>>>
>>>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>>>
>>> According to :-
>>>
>>> https://blogs.kent.ac.uk/sciencecomma/2014/01/22/the-ferrant i-pegasus-computer/
>>>
>>> the last Ferranti Pegasus was produced in 1964, who on earth bought such
>>> an antique in 1964 .....
>>
>> I saw two of them in about 1974, in use.
>>
>> Running the CEGB control centre in London.
>
> The 026 keypunch did indeed use tubes. When you switched it on you had to
> wait for it to warm up, just like a tube-based radio or TV.
>
> Remember what a novelty transistor radios were? Switch it on and it's
> working instantly - no waiting.
>
> And now we've come full circle. Not only do computers take time to boot
> but so do TV sets and Blu-Ray players. I tell people they're warming up.
>
> Moore's Law is no match for writers of bloatware.
>
Back in the 1980s, my uncle had a video disk player... the kind that used
the 12 inch disks. The disks were recorded on both sides, and during the
movie... you'd have to get up and turn over the disk platter. When my uncle
did this, my aunt said he was "winding the Victrola"!!!
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287837 is a reply to message #287808] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 16:39 |
Charles Richmond
Messages: 2754
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Rob Warnock" <rpw3@rpw3.org> wrote in message
news:552e82e0$0$36601$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> +---------------
> | Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
> +---------------
>
> The Royal Precision/Librascope LGP-30 was a vacuum tube machine,
> with 113 tubes and 1350 1N67 & 1N68 diodes[1], with the tubes
> implementing 15 flip-flops, 6 inverters, and 6 cathode followers
> [non-inverting buffers], an amazingly small number of flops for
> a general-purpose computer! O.k., so it was a bit-serial machine,
> and the 4096 words of main memory was a fixed-head-per-track drum.
> But still...
>
> Anyway, the Emory University Chemistry Dept. had one[2] that
> was still running as of mid-1970.
>
The LGP-30 was the machine used by Edward Lorenz when he stumbled across the
Butterfly Effect and chaos theory.
--
numerist at aquaporin4 dot com
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287860 is a reply to message #287729] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 19:00 |
Lon
Messages: 395
Registered: June 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 4/14/2015 1:03 PM, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> According to the C&A census, in 1967 there were still 384 IBM computers in service that utilized vacuum tubes. Given the expensive power consumption, air conditioning, and maintenance issues, I'm surprised there were that many units. Note that a computer had thousands of tubes, and hardware tests had to be run daily to identify weak or failed tubes and they had to be replaced; this most have been quite costly. I don't know about tube vendors of other vendors.
>
> The main tube machines still in service were the IBM 305, 650, and 705. (The 650 was very popular and stayed in production until 1962.) Also, there were probably many 604 electronic calculators still in service, and these were tube based machines. The 026 keypunch may have used some tubes as well.
>
> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
There were still some tube based units, usually 2d21, in military type
stuff where they were solution based computers, not GP after that.
Trying to remember who had a hybrid, part tube, part solid start way
back when.
I do recall a folklore, truth unknown, about the US military scoffing
about the use of miniature tubes in Russian military aviation gear well
after that--until someone allegedly asked about the survivability of
solid state versus tubes in a plasma cloud.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287861 is a reply to message #287835] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 19:02 |
Lon
Messages: 395
Registered: June 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 4/15/2015 2:31 PM, Charles Richmond wrote:
> "Stan Barr" <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnmis370.8hn.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de...
>> On 14 Apr 2015 21:50:32 GMT, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thermionic valves are actually pretty reliable; I've known those in
>>> portable radios to last for decades, and they get much rougher use than
>>> in a computer that is seldom powered down let alone moved or knocked.
>>>
>>
>> Some of the pre-amp valves in my Fender guitar amp are the 1975
>> originals. This amp has been thrown around in vans and clubs most of
>> its life so they must be quite rugged.
>>
>
> From the schematics I have seen of Fender guitar amps, the pre-amp
> tubes are almost always 12AX7 dual triodes. Fender must have bought
> these by the ton!!!
>
Mullard 5 Star were the king way back when, but tube enthusiasts assure
me that the SovTek units were pretty much as good.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287873 is a reply to message #287862] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 21:56 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2015, Lon wrote:
> On 4/15/2015 7:38 AM, Huge wrote:
>> On 2015-04-15, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> And I was flabberghasted when I walked into Barnes and Noble yesterday;
>>> they had an ad selling LP records.
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_revival
>>
> You think that revival is nutso, I wish I still had my Dynaco Stereo 70 and
> PAS3x Tube Amp and Preamp. Arguably a better investment than most stocks.
>
ANd then the followers get involved.
Somebody reads about how valuable some old audio equipment has become, so
they scrounge what they can and treat it the same way. "Vintage" becomes
some generic low end stereo system, so long as it's old.
Michael
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287885 is a reply to message #287822] |
Wed, 15 April 2015 23:28 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wednesday, April 15, 2015 at 1:38:28 PM UTC-4, Michael Black wrote:
> So those aren't really "new" records. I wsa going to say, even if I was
> interested in buying records, nothing new is coming out that I'd want.
I don't have an exact link, but the article in the Phila Inqr said it was new stuff coming out on vinyl, and some of it was only on vinyl.
www.philly.com
Ironically, they said vinyl will cost more than CD's. I remember that wehn CD's first came out, they cost more than vinyl.
Frankly, I think it will be just a fad for a while. CD offers a lot of advantages. Then CD is being supplanted by streaming.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287904 is a reply to message #287860] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 03:07 |
Stan Barr
Messages: 598
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 15 Apr 2015 17:00:55 -0600, Lon <lon.stowell@comcast.net> wrote:
> I do recall a folklore, truth unknown, about the US military scoffing
> about the use of miniature tubes in Russian military aviation gear well
> after that--until someone allegedly asked about the survivability of
> solid state versus tubes in a plasma cloud.
The Russian rod tubes (different construction to conventional tubes)
were in production until very recently. Readily available from the
former Soviet bloc countries and I've been thinking of importing 10 or
so just to play with.
--
Stan Barr plan.b@bluesomatic.org
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287910 is a reply to message #287860] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 06:59 |
osmium
Messages: 749
Registered: April 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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"Lon" wrote:
> Trying to remember who had a hybrid, part tube, part solid start way back
> when.
The Univac File Computer, Model I, was a hybrid. The system was basically
vacuum tubes but the peripherals had a 120 character transistorized "buffer"
The buffer was usually used to aggregate or dispense six-bit characters as
needed. As a WAG, the system as a whole was 95% tubes, 5% solid state.
Design started ca. 1956.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287912 is a reply to message #287835] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 07:45 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <mgmhpn$i8q$1@dont-email.me>,
"Charles Richmond" <numerist@aquaporin4.com> wrote:
> "Stan Barr" <plan.b@bluesomatic.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnmis370.8hn.plan.b@ID-309335.user.uni-berlin.de...
>> On 14 Apr 2015 21:50:32 GMT, Whiskers <catwheezel@operamail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thermionic valves are actually pretty reliable; I've known those in
>>> portable radios to last for decades, and they get much rougher use than
>>> in a computer that is seldom powered down let alone moved or knocked.
>>>
>>
>> Some of the pre-amp valves in my Fender guitar amp are the 1975
>> originals. This amp has been thrown around in vans and clubs most of
>> its life so they must be quite rugged.
>>
>
> From the schematics I have seen of Fender guitar amps, the pre-amp tubes are
> almost always 12AX7 dual triodes. Fender must have bought these by the
> ton!!!
Hey, I think I bought several of those for repairing TVs and audio
amps. What else would you use in an audio amp front end?
Remember *every* drugstore had tube testers, but it was orders of
magnitude cheaper than calling in a repair man^W person.
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
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| Re: End of vacuum tubes in computers? [message #287913 is a reply to message #287781] |
Thu, 16 April 2015 07:48 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <12fdd958-a026-42dc-b298-d8735325b66b@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 14, 2015 at 1:03:23 PM UTC-6, hanc...@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> Would anyone know more about the tube era in computers?
>
> I remember fondly reading an issue of Datamation with a big article about how
> the last firm to be using an IBM 704 computer was finally sending it to the
> scrap heap - to be replaced by a surplus IBM 7090 rather than something
> contemporary.
>
> I think it was from the early 1970s. Possibly very shortly after October,
> 1973.
>
> John Savard
Doubtless not a good move economically, 7090s were expensive to run
for their performance. Power, of course, but you needed operators to
change tape all the time
--
Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greed. Me.
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