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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #210734 is a reply to message #210556] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 12:48   |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:35:55 AM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech
> revolution
While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968, it took a long time until computer horsepower* was cheap enough so that it could utilized on a widespread basis.
Some observations--
.. Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements to it so it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit, sharply, closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But Picturephone never caught on in its early days. Bell later offered video conferencing for groups, where people would go to a central site that had cameras and a screen.
.. Cut 'n paste: Typists were relatively low paid, and before computers, did that kind of work. The professionals would write a document and the typists would type up a draft. The professionals would then edit the document, including literally cutting and pasting paragraphs as needed. Back to the typist for another draft.
.. Sorting: some computer text editors had that built in. Computers of course had it. Data stored on punched cards could be quickly resorted by whatever field on the card sorting machine.
.. Anticipation: some anticipation is too premature leading to errors in transmission. "He's dating an stronaunt" sent instead of "he's dating an architect".
* By "horsepower" I mean the necessary RAM, CPU speed, and disk storage. In 1968 all this was still fantastically expensive, especially in supporting on-line users doing sophisticated functions.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #210755 is a reply to message #210734] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 13:50 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
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On Tue, 10 Dec 2013, hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:35:55 AM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech
>> revolution
>
> While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968, it took a
> long time until computer horsepower* was cheap enough so that it could
> utilized on a widespread basis.
>
> Some observations--
>
> . Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its
> Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements to
> it so it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit,
> sharply, closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But
> Picturephone never caught on in its early days. Bell later offered
> video conferencing for groups, where people would go to a central site
> that had cameras and a screen.
>
What's interesting is how such things have turned out. Circa 1968, it
would have used a video feed, no digitalizing invovled. Now computer power
is such that the average home computer can handle the video bandwidth.
I reemmber some articles in Byte about interfacing a laserdisc player with
a computer. But it was about emulating the button presses, not connecting
to some bus on the laserdisc player. And the idea was to provide needed
graphics, without the overhead of having to store those graphics on the
computer, or handle them on the computer. The laserdisc stood by itself,
the computer only controlling it (like when controllers were added to
slide projectors to do fancy things).
Michael
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked atech revolution [message #210768 is a reply to message #210734] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 15:12 |
Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:35:55 AM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech
>> revolution
>
> While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968,
> it took a long time until computer horsepower* was cheap enough
> so that it could utilized on a widespread basis.
>
> Some observations--
>
> . Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its
> Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements
> to it so it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit,
> sharply, closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But
> Picturephone never caught on in its early days. Bell later offered video
> conferencing for groups, where people would go to a central
> site that had cameras and a screen.
Part of the Picturphone spin in the early 70's was the real purpose
of picture phone was the development of high speed data and
switching technology. One thing that did come out of the effort
was information on switching and noise issues. I may be wrong
but I believe that Picturephone used analog signalling for short
links and T-2 ?? when it ran through the switching network..
At least one of the dedicated Picturephone commercial channels
was used for data transmission. In one case one of the Bells'
were upset that it was clear that this was being done at an
overall cost lower than renting lines for data. It eventually was
determined that the customer was transmitting well formatted video
and just because Bell didn't like the images they weren't the
intended recipient.
w..
w..
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked atech revolution [message #210781 is a reply to message #210768] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 15:22 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
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On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 3:12:56 PM UTC-5, Walter Banks wrote:
> Part of the Picturphone spin in the early 70's was the real purpose
> of picture phone was the development of high speed data and
> switching technology. One thing that did come out of the effort
> was information on switching and noise issues. I may be wrong
> but I believe that Picturephone used analog signalling for short
> links and T-2 ?? when it ran through the switching network..
Yes.
From the Bell Labs history:
In 1969, development was completed on a wideband switching
network for the No. 5 crossbar system (see Fig. 11-20). This
switching network can serve a 1-MHz bandwidth signal on a 4-wire
basis. Special care was taken to balance the wiring between the two
directions of transmission and to ground. The three-stage crossbar
switch network had a maximum capacity of 3200 lines and 400
trunks. The regular No. 5 crossbar network carried the audio, and
the control was modified to recognize PICTUREPHONE calls and to
switch both audio and video.
In addition to developments for the No. 5 crossbar system, key
systems (1P1), the 850 PBX, and No. 101 ESS were arranged to provide
wideband data or PICTUREPHONE service, the latter two
using the 4-wire ferreed switches developed for the AUTOVON
No. 1 ESS (see Chapter 9, section 5.5). Unfortunately, the PICTUREPHONE
developments were ahead of their time from an
economic point of view, but these and other exploratory switching
developments proved the feasibility of using space-division switching
for this type of service.
A more detailed description of the Picturephone technology is provided in:
http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol50-1971/articles/bstj 50-2-221.pdf
A series of BSTJ articles may be found at: Note the extensive research Bell Labs put into developing a complete service system.
http://www3.alcatel-lucent.com/bstj/vol50-1971/bstj-vol50-is sue02.html
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #210782 is a reply to message #210755] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 15:23 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:50:12 PM UTC-5, Michael Black wrote:
> What's interesting is how such things have turned out. Circa 1968, it
> would have used a video feed, no digitalizing invovled. Now computer power
> is such that the average home computer can handle the video bandwidth.
It appears (see other post) they planned on a 1 Mhz bandwidth.
What is the actaul effecgive bandwidth of today's home broadband services, such as DSL, basic cable, basic FIOS?
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked atech revolution [message #210784 is a reply to message #210768] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 15:35 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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On Tue, 10 Dec 2013, Walter Banks wrote:
>
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:35:55 AM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech
>>> revolution
>>
>> While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968,
>
>> it took a long time until computer horsepower* was cheap enough
>
>> so that it could utilized on a widespread basis.
>>
>> Some observations--
>>
>> . Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its
>
>> Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements
>
>> to it so it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit,
>
>> sharply, closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But
>
>> Picturephone never caught on in its early days. Bell later offered video
>
>> conferencing for groups, where people would go to a central
>
>> site that had cameras and a screen.
>
> Part of the Picturphone spin in the early 70's was the real purpose
> of picture phone was the development of high speed data and
> switching technology. One thing that did come out of the effort
> was information on switching and noise issues. I may be wrong
> but I believe that Picturephone used analog signalling for short
> links and T-2 ?? when it ran through the switching network..
>
Were the Picturephones "slow scan"? I figure they'd have to have a slower
scan rate in order to fit into the bandwidth, but that's from knowing
about such things after the fact. I can't remember the Picturephones on
display at Expo '67 here enough to know if could show motion well or not.
> At least one of the dedicated Picturephone commercial channels
> was used for data transmission. In one case one of the Bells'
> were upset that it was clear that this was being done at an
> overall cost lower than renting lines for data. It eventually was
> determined that the customer was transmitting well formatted video
> and just because Bell didn't like the images they weren't the
> intended recipient.
>
Ernie Lehman in his novel "The French Atlantic Affair" uses a video feed
between New York and LA to transmit pages of data. The feed was always
there between the sites for a TV network, and they scheduled things to
make the most of it. And some guy with authority commandeers the the
video feed for this important information.
Michael
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparkedatech revolution [message #210791 is a reply to message #210784] |
Tue, 10 December 2013 16:27 |
Walter Banks
Messages: 1000
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Michael Black wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Dec 2013, Walter Banks wrote:
>
>>
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>
>>> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:35:55 AM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>>>> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech
>>>> revolution
>>>
>>> While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968,
>>
>>> it took a long time until computer horsepower* was cheap enough
>>
>>> so that it could utilized on a widespread basis.
>>>
>>> Some observations--
>>>
>>> . Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its
>>> Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements
>>> to it so it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit,
>>> sharply, closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But
>>> Picturephone never caught on in its early days. Bell later offered video
>>> conferencing for groups, where people would go to a central
>>> site that had cameras and a screen.
>>
>> Part of the Picturphone spin in the early 70's was the real purpose
>> of picture phone was the development of high speed data and
>> switching technology. One thing that did come out of the effort
>> was information on switching and noise issues. I may be wrong
>> but I believe that Picturephone used analog signalling for short
>> links and T-2 ?? when it ran through the switching network..
>>
> Were the Picturephones "slow scan"? I figure they'd have to have a slower
> scan rate in order to fit into the bandwidth, but that's from knowing
> about such things after the fact. I can't remember the Picturephones on
> display at Expo '67 here enough to know if could show motion well or not.
It had limited resolution 250 or so horz pixels but did scan at 30Hz.
(As I remember it) It was analog with limited dynamic range to
reduce the bandwidth requirements. It wasn't slow scan.
w..
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #210852 is a reply to message #210734] |
Wed, 11 December 2013 09:08 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 10:35:55 AM UTC-5, Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote:
>> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech
>> revolution
>
> While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968, it took a long
time until computer horsepower* was cheap enough so that it could utilized on
a widespread basis.
>
> Some observations--
>
> . Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its
Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements to it so
it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit, sharply,
closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But Picturephone never caught
on in its early days. Bell later offered video conferencing for groups, where
people would go to a central site that had cameras and a screen.
>
> . Cut 'n paste: Typists were relatively low paid, and before computers,
did that kind of work. The professionals would write a document and the
typists would type up a draft. The professionals would then edit the
document, including literally cutting and pasting paragraphs as needed. Back
to the typist for another draft.
The typists did the the cut/paste, not the writers. The writers marked up
the document with a pencil.
>
> . Sorting: some computer text editors had that built in. Computers of
course had it. Data stored on punched cards could be quickly resorted by
whatever field on the card sorting machine.
>
> . Anticipation: some anticipation is too premature leading to errors in
transmission. "He's dating an stronaunt" sent instead of "he's dating an
architect".
>
>
> * By "horsepower" I mean the necessary RAM, CPU speed, and disk storage. In
1968 all this was still fantastically expensive, especially in supporting
on-line users doing sophisticated functions.
that's why timesharing was useful.
/BAH
>
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #210892 is a reply to message #210852] |
Wed, 11 December 2013 13:01 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote
>> Anne & Lynn Wheeler wrote
>>> The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation
>>> that sparked a tech revolution
>> While some of those things may have been conceived in 1968,
>> it took a long time until computer horsepower* was cheap
>> enough so that it could utilized on a widespread basis.
>> Some observations--
>> . Teleconferencing: Bell conceived of that years earlier with its
>> Picturephone. After its first rollout, Bell kept making improvements
>> to it so it could be a business tool, such as the ability to transmit,
>> sharply,
>> closeups of engienering drawings and documents. But Picturephone never
>> caught on in its early days. Bell later offered video conferencing for
>> groups,
>> where people would go to a central site that had cameras and a screen.
>> . Cut 'n paste: Typists were relatively low paid, and before computers,
>> did that kind of work. The professionals would write a document and
>> the typists would type up a draft. The professionals would then edit
>> the document, including literally cutting and pasting paragraphs as
>> needed. Back to the typist for another draft.
> The typists did the the cut/paste, not the writers.
There you go again with your sweeping assertions.
Plenty of writers did.
> The writers marked up the document with a pencil.
Not all of them did.
>> . Sorting: some computer text editors had that built in.
>> Computers of course had it. Data stored on punched cards could
>> be quickly resorted by whatever field on the card sorting machine.
>> . Anticipation: some anticipation is too premature leading to errors in
>> transmission. "He's dating an stronaunt" sent instead of "he's dating an
>> architect".
>> * By "horsepower" I mean the necessary RAM, CPU speed, and disk storage.
>> In 1968 all this was still fantastically expensive, especially in
>> supporting
>> on-line users doing sophisticated functions.
> that's why timesharing was useful.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked atech revolutio [message #210905 is a reply to message #210755] |
Wed, 11 December 2013 11:50 |
Charlie Gibbs
Messages: 5313
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <alpine.LNX.2.02.1312101347100.18671@darkstar.example.org>,
et472@ncf.ca (Michael Black) writes:
> I reemmber some articles in Byte about interfacing a laserdisc player
> with a computer. But it was about emulating the button presses, not
> connecting to some bus on the laserdisc player. And the idea was
> to provide needed graphics, without the overhead of having to store
> those graphics on the computer, or handle them on the computer. The
> laserdisc stood by itself, the computer only controlling it (like
> when controllers were added to slide projectors to do fancy things).
A number of video games that used laserdiscs were popular for a while.
Dragon's Lair is the one I remember. At an Amiga group meeting someone
demonstrated an interface to a laserdisc player; he had the Dragon's
Lair disc and was working on cloning the game on his Amiga.
--
/~\ cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ / I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
X Top-posted messages will probably be ignored. See RFC1855.
/ \ HTML will DEFINITELY be ignored. Join the ASCII ribbon campaign!
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked atech revolutio [message #210911 is a reply to message #210905] |
Wed, 11 December 2013 13:52 |
Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Wed, 11 Dec 2013, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> In article <alpine.LNX.2.02.1312101347100.18671@darkstar.example.org>,
> et472@ncf.ca (Michael Black) writes:
>
>> I reemmber some articles in Byte about interfacing a laserdisc player
>> with a computer. But it was about emulating the button presses, not
>> connecting to some bus on the laserdisc player. And the idea was
>> to provide needed graphics, without the overhead of having to store
>> those graphics on the computer, or handle them on the computer. The
>> laserdisc stood by itself, the computer only controlling it (like
>> when controllers were added to slide projectors to do fancy things).
>
> A number of video games that used laserdiscs were popular for a while.
> Dragon's Lair is the one I remember. At an Amiga group meeting someone
> demonstrated an interface to a laserdisc player; he had the Dragon's
> Lair disc and was working on cloning the game on his Amiga.
>
I remember some reference to Dragon's Lair, so the article was either
pointing to that as an example of what he hoped to accomplish, or perhaps
it was an actual insider piece about how they did it.
I had a chance to buy a laserdisc player at a rummage sale about six years
ago. I was tempted, and nobody bought it during the sale, but there were
no laserdiscs with it. If there'd been one measly movie, I would have
brought that thing home.
Michael
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211003 is a reply to message #210556] |
Thu, 12 December 2013 09:00 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland wrote:
> On 12/11/2013 8:08 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>
>>> . Cut 'n paste: Typists were relatively low paid, and before computers,
>> did that kind of work. The professionals would write a document and the
>> typists would type up a draft. The professionals would then edit the
>> document, including literally cutting and pasting paragraphs as needed.
Back
>> to the typist for another draft.
>>
>> The typists did the the cut/paste, not the writers. The writers marked up
>> the document with a pencil.
>
> Do you mean, cut/paste for camera-ready?
That and docs for review.
> That's a bit different than
> what the average typist did.
Sigh! My secretary at the university did the cut/paste, not the
writer who was usually a prof, student or something else.
>
> IME, for drafts, writers did both (that's how they got a paragraph
> from the Squidgely Contract into the Bigglesworth Report). Typists
> wouldn't have any reason to physically cut/paste, because they're
> typing a new, amalgamated, version.
Retyping depended on what was wrong and how big the document was.
If was a page long, a typist would just retype it. If it was
a large document, retyping may not be intelligent so the cut and
paste was done by the typist.
>
> Indeed, after WP came in, the typist was staring at that scrap of
> pasted (taped, more likely) paper and trying to figure out just what
> document it was taken from. This would have been from the day of the
> IBM MC/ST and subsequently.
I cut/pasted with TECO in just about every edit session. Secretaries
and typists loved computer editing. The switch blade was put into
a drawer and only used when blood had to be drawn.
/BAH
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211021 is a reply to message #211003] |
Thu, 12 December 2013 11:14 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
> Dave Garland wrote
>> jmfbahciv wrote
>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote
>>>> . Cut 'n paste: Typists were relatively low paid, and before
>>>> computers,
>>> did that kind of work. The professionals would write a document and the
>>> typists would type up a draft. The professionals would then edit the
>>> document, including literally cutting and pasting paragraphs as needed.
>>> Back to the typist for another draft.
>>> The typists did the the cut/paste, not the writers.
>>> The writers marked up the document with a pencil.
>> Do you mean, cut/paste for camera-ready?
> That and docs for review.
>> That's a bit different than what the average typist did.
> Sigh!
Heavy breathing aint gunna save your bacon.
> My secretary at the university did the cut/paste,
Nothing like the average typist.
> not the writer who was usually a prof, student or something else.
I did the whole thing myself when I was at Uni.
>> IME, for drafts, writers did both (that's how they got a paragraph
>> from the Squidgely Contract into the Bigglesworth Report).
>> Typists wouldn't have any reason to physically cut/paste,
>> because they're typing a new, amalgamated, version.
> Retyping depended on what was wrong and how big the
> document was. If was a page long, a typist would just retype
> it. If it was a large document, retyping may not be intelligent
> so the cut and paste was done by the typist.
Depends on what the document was.
>> Indeed, after WP came in, the typist was staring at that scrap
>> of pasted (taped, more likely) paper and trying to figure out
>> just what document it was taken from. This would have
>> been from the day of the IBM MC/ST and subsequently.
> I cut/pasted with TECO in just about every edit session.
That’s a different situation to when someone else
had specified what changes had to be made.
> Secretaries and typists loved computer editing.
Not all of them did.
> The switch blade was put into a drawer and
> only used when blood had to be drawn.
Even sillier.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211033 is a reply to message #210556] |
Thu, 12 December 2013 13:46 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:24:13 PM UTC-5, Dave Garland wrote:
> Students at the university had secretaries?
A graduate-level student or PhD candidate often would hire a typist to type up their thesis.
> After the advent of computers and WP gear (such as the IBM MC/ST)
> retyping wasn't that much of a chore. But before, often only a page
> or two needed to be retyped if the changes weren't massive.
The IBM magcard machines were expensive and tended to used only in heavy duty applications. Plus, they had no screen and weren't a huge boost in productivity as later more sophisticated W/P machines were. It was often more cost effective to have a human typist do the work, doing drafts multiple times as needed. In the 1970s, plenty of office work was still done on manual typewriters, which were cheaper than electrics, especially IBM Selectrics.. Electric typewriters needed power, and in older office buildings that could mean electrical work to provide adequate outlets for all the typists, another expense.
> I'm talking about the real
> thing, with scissors and paste pots and scotch tape.
When writers "cut 'n paste" a document to be retyped, they usually just used Scotch tape, not bothering with real paste, which was a pain. Sometimes they just drew lines on the old copy, marking what text was to be moved where.
Rubber cement was used on pasteups for camera ready copy in publishing, but that was a totally separate application. There, the paste-up had to fit exactly in place for the page.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211069 is a reply to message #210782] |
Thu, 12 December 2013 03:45 |
Morten Reistad
Messages: 2108
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <aa5b2ddf-ce3a-4295-b503-4156e6fcdfdc@googlegroups.com>,
<hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:50:12 PM UTC-5, Michael Black wrote:
>
>> What's interesting is how such things have turned out. Circa 1968, it
>> would have used a video feed, no digitalizing invovled. Now computer power
>> is such that the average home computer can handle the video bandwidth.
>
> It appears (see other post) they planned on a 1 Mhz bandwidth.
>
> What is the actaul effecgive bandwidth of today's home broadband services, such as DSL, basic cable, basic FIOS?
Not that much more, but compression is extensively used.
A DVD has a burst bandwith of 10 mbit/sec, and a sustained max of 8. (compressed
video is burst in nature).
You get sort-of-decent performance down to around 2 mbit/sec with DVD codecs.
The uncompressed signal is around 50 mbit/sec.
-- mrr
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211153 is a reply to message #210556] |
Fri, 13 December 2013 10:50 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dave Garland wrote:
> On 12/12/2013 8:00 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>> Dave Garland wrote:
>>> On 12/11/2013 8:08 AM, jmfbahciv wrote:
>>>> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> > . Cut 'n paste: Typists were relatively low paid, and before
computers,
>>>> did that kind of work. The professionals would write a document and the
>>>> typists would type up a draft. The professionals would then edit the
>>>> document, including literally cutting and pasting paragraphs as needed.
>> Back
>>>> to the typist for another draft.
>>>>
>>>> The typists did the the cut/paste, not the writers. The writers marked
up
>>>> the document with a pencil.
>>>
>>> Do you mean, cut/paste for camera-ready?
>>
>> That and docs for review.
>>
>>> That's a bit different than
>>> what the average typist did.
>>
>> Sigh! My secretary at the university did the cut/paste, not the
>> writer who was usually a prof, student or something else.
>
> Students at the university had secretaries?
If you worked in a department while going to school, yes.
>
>>> IME, for drafts, writers did both (that's how they got a paragraph
>>> from the Squidgely Contract into the Bigglesworth Report). Typists
>>> wouldn't have any reason to physically cut/paste, because they're
>>> typing a new, amalgamated, version.
>>
>> Retyping depended on what was wrong and how big the document was.
>> If was a page long, a typist would just retype it. If it was
>> a large document, retyping may not be intelligent so the cut and
>> paste was done by the typist.
>
> After the advent of computers and WP gear (such as the IBM MC/ST)
> retyping wasn't that much of a chore. But before, often only a page
> or two needed to be retyped if the changes weren't massive.
It depended on what the end product was going to be. Widows were
the bane of a typist's existence.
>
> Places I worked wouldn't have accepted physical pasteups for anything
> but drafts. One-off presentation stuff like foamcore would have been
> physically pasted up, but by the draftsmen.
But if your proudction was going to be a manual, you cut/pasted
on a [can't think of the term it's a page of paper larger than
normal with an 85% reduction] foobar. For a while, DEC's doc preparers
would cut/paste each <CRLF> glyph and, for a while, each <CTRL>-C glyph.
>
>>> Indeed, after WP came in, the typist was staring at that scrap of
>>> pasted (taped, more likely) paper and trying to figure out just what
>>> document it was taken from. This would have been from the day of the
>>> IBM MC/ST and subsequently.
>>
>> I cut/pasted with TECO in just about every edit session. Secretaries
>> and typists loved computer editing.
>
> They did if they weren't too threatened by it (in those days computers
> were scary stuff for some people). I didn't see many nonclerical
> staff with computers on their desk until the 1990s. They wrote,
> longhand. I expect at a place like DEC that was different.
Nope. Even the programmers didn't get their own TTYs until late
70s.
> And
> cutting/pasting with TECO is a metaphor, I'm talking about the real
> thing, with scissors and paste pots and scotch tape.
So am I. DEC did all of their own manual preparations. My first
"not my day job" project was to help develop a typesetting program
which would work bettter than RUNOFF.
/BAH
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211155 is a reply to message #211033] |
Fri, 13 December 2013 10:50 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com wrote:
> On Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:24:13 PM UTC-5, Dave Garland wrote:
>
>> Students at the university had secretaries?
>
> A graduate-level student or PhD candidate often would hire a typist to type
up their thesis.
>
>
>> After the advent of computers and WP gear (such as the IBM MC/ST)
>> retyping wasn't that much of a chore. But before, often only a page
>> or two needed to be retyped if the changes weren't massive.
>
> The IBM magcard machines were expensive and tended to used only in heavy
duty applications. Plus, they had no screen and weren't a huge boost in
productivity as later more sophisticated W/P machines were. It was often more
cost effective to have a human typist do the work, doing drafts multiple times
as needed. In the 1970s, plenty of office work was still done on manual
typewriters, which were cheaper than electrics, especially IBM Selectrics.
Electric typewriters needed power, and in older office buildings that could
mean electrical work to provide adequate outlets for all the typists, another
expense.
>
>
>> I'm talking about the real
>> thing, with scissors and paste pots and scotch tape.
>
> When writers "cut 'n paste" a document to be retyped, they usually just used
Scotch tape, not bothering with real paste, which was a pain. Sometimes they
just drew lines on the old copy, marking what text was to be moved where.
>
> Rubber cement was used on pasteups for camera ready copy in publishing,
No. that would show up on the picture. Ours used thin white tape which
was on the non-photo side of the page.
> but that was a totally separate application. There, the paste-up had to fit
exactly in place for the page.
Right. To create a hole similar to the replacement, you used a switchblade
to cut both holes at the same time.
/BAH
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211336 is a reply to message #211069] |
Fri, 13 December 2013 19:10 |
Walter Bushell
Messages: 1834
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <lm9ona-7lk.ln1@wair.reistad.name>,
Morten Reistad <first@last.name> wrote:
> In article <aa5b2ddf-ce3a-4295-b503-4156e6fcdfdc@googlegroups.com>,
> <hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, December 10, 2013 1:50:12 PM UTC-5, Michael Black wrote:
>>
>>> What's interesting is how such things have turned out. Circa 1968, it
>>> would have used a video feed, no digitalizing invovled. Now computer power
>>> is such that the average home computer can handle the video bandwidth.
>>
>> It appears (see other post) they planned on a 1 Mhz bandwidth.
>>
>> What is the actaul effecgive bandwidth of today's home broadband services,
>> such as DSL, basic cable, basic FIOS?
>
> Not that much more, but compression is extensively used.
>
> A DVD has a burst bandwith of 10 mbit/sec, and a sustained max of 8.
> (compressed
> video is burst in nature).
>
> You get sort-of-decent performance down to around 2 mbit/sec with DVD codecs.
>
> The uncompressed signal is around 50 mbit/sec.
>
> -- mrr
Ah, only usable with the increase of CPU or graphic card performance.
--
Gambling with Other People's Money is the meth of the fiscal industry.
me -- in the spirit of Karl and Groucho Marx
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211472 is a reply to message #211153] |
Sat, 14 December 2013 19:44 |
Joy Beeson
Messages: 159
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 13 Dec 2013 15:50:01 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> But if your proudction was going to be a manual, you cut/pasted
> on a [can't think of the term it's a page of paper larger than
> normal with an 85% reduction] foobar. For a while, DEC's doc preparers
> would cut/paste each <CRLF> glyph and, for a while, each <CTRL>-C glyph.
I used ledger paper. (And, if I recall correctly, 83% reduction.)
Ledger paper isn't the same shape as the letter paper the newsletter
was going to be printed on, but that left me a wide margin at the
bottom to write instructions to the printer. I always used a blue
pencil -- not so that it *couldn't* be reproduced, but so that the
printer would be sure to notice that it wasn't *supposed* to be
reproduced.
Some of the pages arrived camera-ready, to be printed at 100% -- I
always removable-taped them to ledger paper so they wouldn't fall out
of the bundle.
The real fun came in when parts of the page were to be printed at
different percentages. (Photographs, usually.) It was the printer's
job to do the assembly, but it was my job to make sure the holes fit
the items meant to plug them.
I really groove on writing my newsletters in hypertext.
--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211507 is a reply to message #211472] |
Sun, 15 December 2013 11:37 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Joy Beeson wrote:
> On 13 Dec 2013 15:50:01 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> But if your proudction was going to be a manual, you cut/pasted
>> on a [can't think of the term it's a page of paper larger than
>> normal with an 85% reduction] foobar. For a while, DEC's doc preparers
>> would cut/paste each <CRLF> glyph and, for a while, each <CTRL>-C glyph.
>
> I used ledger paper. (And, if I recall correctly, 83% reduction.)
> Ledger paper isn't the same shape as the letter paper the newsletter
> was going to be printed on, but that left me a wide margin at the
> bottom to write instructions to the printer. I always used a blue
> pencil
Yup. It was invisible to the camera; I never did find out why.
> -- not so that it *couldn't* be reproduced, but so that the
> printer would be sure to notice that it wasn't *supposed* to be
> reproduced.
>
> Some of the pages arrived camera-ready, to be printed at 100% -- I
> always removable-taped them to ledger paper so they wouldn't fall out
> of the bundle.
>
> The real fun came in when parts of the page were to be printed at
> different percentages. (Photographs, usually.) It was the printer's
> job to do the assembly, but it was my job to make sure the holes fit
> the items meant to plug them.
I never had a chance to see that detail. the writers did that kind of
work.
>
> I really groove on writing my newsletters in hypertext.
And the print quality these days is nothing to sneeze at. I think
I spent 25% of my time at work thinking or working on side projects
to improve print quality in our manuals. My first side project was
to convince all the writers is was better and more efficient to
have the docs put into bits instead of going to the typing pool.
I worked very hard to ensure the turn around time was 10 times faster
than the typists'.
The long range plan of mine was to 1. be able to ship docs on tape
2. be able to ship the docs at the same time the software shipped
3. be able to have anyone look or change the contents without
going through the long time it took to do everything "by hand".
Eventually, a gal took over my job who had real newspaper
typesetting experience. That was much better; I was learning
everything by myself without being able to ask someone who did
have experience.
/BAH
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211523 is a reply to message #211507] |
Sun, 15 December 2013 13:06 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
> Joy Beeson wrote
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>>> But if your proudction was going to be a manual, you cut/pasted
>>> on a [can't think of the term it's a page of paper larger than normal
>>> with an 85% reduction] foobar. For a while, DEC's doc preparers
>>> would cut/paste each <CRLF> glyph and, for a while, each <CTRL>-C glyph.
>> I used ledger paper. (And, if I recall correctly, 83% reduction.)
>> Ledger paper isn't the same shape as the letter paper the newsletter
>> was going to be printed on, but that left me a wide margin at the
>> bottom to write instructions to the printer. I always used a blue pencil
> Yup. It was invisible to the camera; I never did find out why.
Because the emulsion doesn’t react to that end of the spectrum.
>> -- not so that it *couldn't* be reproduced, but so that the printer
>> would be sure to notice that it wasn't *supposed* to be reproduced.
>> Some of the pages arrived camera-ready, to be printed at 100% -- I
>> always removable-taped them to ledger paper so they wouldn't fall out
>> of the bundle.
>> The real fun came in when parts of the page were to be printed at
>> different percentages. (Photographs, usually.) It was the printer's
>> job to do the assembly, but it was my job to make sure the holes fit
>> the items meant to plug them.
> I never had a chance to see that detail. the writers did that kind of
> work.
>> I really groove on writing my newsletters in hypertext.
> And the print quality these days is nothing to sneeze at.
> I think I spent 25% of my time at work thinking or working
> on side projects to improve print quality in our manuals.
> My first side project was to convince all the writers is was
> better and more efficient to have the docs put into bits
> instead of going to the typing pool. I worked very hard to
> ensure the turn around time was 10 times faster than the typists'.
> The long range plan of mine was to 1. be able to ship docs on tape
> 2. be able to ship the docs at the same time the software shipped
> 3. be able to have anyone look or change the contents without
> going through the long time it took to do everything "by hand".
> Eventually, a gal took over my job who had real newspaper
> typesetting experience. That was much better; I was learning
> everything by myself without being able to ask someone
> who did have experience.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211546 is a reply to message #211533] |
Sun, 15 December 2013 16:47 |
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Originally posted by: John Grey
"Charlton Wilbur" <cwilbur@chromatico.net> wrote in message
news:871u1e3qqk.fsf@new.chromatico.net...
>>>> >> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>
> BAH> The long range plan of mine was to 1. be able to ship docs on
> BAH> tape 2. be able to ship the docs at the same time the software
> BAH> shipped 3. be able to have anyone look or change the contents
> BAH> without going through the long time it took to do everything
> BAH> "by hand".
>
> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer in
> front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
Nothing did, she has always been that inconsistent.
To be fair tho, she refuses because she doesn't believe
that the documentation on the computer in front of her
is a patch on what DEC produced and its certainly very
different to what DEC produced.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211623 is a reply to message #211533] |
Mon, 16 December 2013 09:18 |
jmfbahciv
Messages: 6173
Registered: March 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlton Wilbur wrote:
>>>> >> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>
> BAH> The long range plan of mine was to 1. be able to ship docs on
> BAH> tape 2. be able to ship the docs at the same time the software
> BAH> shipped 3. be able to have anyone look or change the contents
> BAH> without going through the long time it took to do everything
> BAH> "by hand".
>
> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer in
> front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
Can't read what hasn't been written.
/BAH
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211660 is a reply to message #211507] |
Mon, 16 December 2013 11:35 |
pechter
Messages: 452
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <PM0004ED94859F7776@ac8148e5.ipt.aol.com>,
jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
> Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On 13 Dec 2013 15:50:01 GMT, jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>> But if your proudction was going to be a manual, you cut/pasted
>>> on a [can't think of the term it's a page of paper larger than
>>> normal with an 85% reduction] foobar. For a while, DEC's doc preparers
>>> would cut/paste each <CRLF> glyph and, for a while, each <CTRL>-C glyph.
>>
>> I used ledger paper. (And, if I recall correctly, 83% reduction.)
>> Ledger paper isn't the same shape as the letter paper the newsletter
>> was going to be printed on, but that left me a wide margin at the
>> bottom to write instructions to the printer. I always used a blue
>> pencil
>
> Yup. It was invisible to the camera; I never did find out why.
>
>> -- not so that it *couldn't* be reproduced, but so that the
>> printer would be sure to notice that it wasn't *supposed* to be
>> reproduced.
Ah the fun of non-repro blue.
It's a specific blue tint which will not show up on the plates
when they camera shoot them to make the offset print plates.
Wikipedia calls it non-photo blue.
We called the larger sheets layout forms or sheets and they were done
with newspaper column markings for layout of single or multi column
page designs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-photo_blue
I loved non-repro blue.
One problem is the non-repro blue wouldn't reproduce in the newspaper I did
while in college, while the repro-orange Dorito's dust left my fingerprints
across one issue.
No matter how hungry, never eat Taco chips or anything with orange cheese
powder while pasting up a newspaper.
Red and black come out black.. Orange does as well.
Some blue inks drop out on the black and white process depending on the
contrast and shade. Non-repro is somewhere like a sky or baby blue.
>>
>> Some of the pages arrived camera-ready, to be printed at 100% -- I
>> always removable-taped them to ledger paper so they wouldn't fall out
>> of the bundle.
Yup. Always fun to work with.
>>
>> The real fun came in when parts of the page were to be printed at
>> different percentages. (Photographs, usually.) It was the printer's
>> job to do the assembly, but it was my job to make sure the holes fit
>> the items meant to plug them.
Yup. They had to screen the photo's to make the pixel-like dots the
offset print process needed.
Common screens (IIRC) 65 line per inch 130 line per inch...
You had to mark up the photos to be shot. The local print shop refered
to the screened version of the pix as "Veloxes" probably referring to
the Kodak VELOX photographic paper which according to wikipedia was
invented by Leo Baekeland in 1893 and was sold to Eastman Kodak.
Baekeland was more famous for Bakelite the well known early plastic.
> /BAH
Bill
--
--
Digital had it then. Don't you wish you could buy it now!
pechter-at-pechter.dyndns.org http://xkcd.com/705/
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211662 is a reply to message #211650] |
Mon, 16 December 2013 11:38 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> writes:
>>>> >> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>
>>> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer
>>> in front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
>
> BAH> Can't read what hasn't been written.
>
> Oh, bullshit. Can't read what you can't be arsed to look for, more
> like.
We've posted link after link.
I can't remember even once where she came back and said, I read
that, and it didn't answer my question. Or, heaven forbid she'd
read a link and come back and admit we were right, the documentation
is there and it works.
Nope, it's the complain disease.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211668 is a reply to message #211623] |
Mon, 16 December 2013 11:58 |
Rod Speed
Messages: 3507
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
> Charlton Wilbur wrote
>> jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> wrote
>>> The long range plan of mine was to 1. be able to ship docs on
>>> tape 2. be able to ship the docs at the same time the software
>>> shipped 3. be able to have anyone look or change the contents
>>> without going through the long time it took to do everything
>>> "by hand".
>> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the
>> computer in front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
> Can't read what hasn't been written.
It has been written. You just don’t like what has been written.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211690 is a reply to message #211660] |
Mon, 16 December 2013 13:53 |
hancock4
Messages: 6746
Registered: December 2011
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On Monday, December 16, 2013 11:35:54 AM UTC-5, William Pechter wrote:
> I loved non-repro blue.
> One problem is the non-repro blue wouldn't reproduce in the newspaper I did
> while in college, while the repro-orange Dorito's dust left my fingerprints
> across one issue.
The early days of some programmers included forms design. They would use drafting pens and ink to draw the lines of the boxes, which would later be labelled by the IBM typesetting machine (a fancy Selectric with fine-variable pitch). A ball point pen would not reproduce well on offset, the drafting pens made a solid sharp line, with different pens available to select thickness (thin for separators, thick for borders).
The drafting ink would badly stain clothing, and could not be washed out. When a pen clogs, the natural response is to shake it, but that is the worst thing to do with a drafting pen (or a conventional fountain pen, for that matter).
The kicker was that these typeset/offset forms were going to be used internally in rather limited volume; not sent out to clients. For their intended use, a far faster, if not as attractive, plain ballpoint ink and typewriter form would've been perfectly adequate.
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211727 is a reply to message #211662] |
Mon, 16 December 2013 17:49 |
Patrick Scheible
Messages: 768
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
> Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> writes:
>
>>>> >>> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>
>>>> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer
>>>> in front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
>>
>> BAH> Can't read what hasn't been written.
>>
>> Oh, bullshit. Can't read what you can't be arsed to look for, more
>> like.
>
> We've posted link after link.
> I can't remember even once where she came back and said, I read
> that, and it didn't answer my question. Or, heaven forbid she'd
> read a link and come back and admit we were right, the documentation
> is there and it works.
>
> Nope, it's the complain disease.
She doesn't read links on the web. If the web is the only place
documentation exists, for her it might as well not exist. Given the
invasion routes a web browser opens up, she may get the last laugh.
-- Patrick
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211801 is a reply to message #211727] |
Tue, 17 December 2013 09:52 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> writes:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> writes:
>>
>>>> >>>> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> > And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer
>>>> > in front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
>>>
>>> BAH> Can't read what hasn't been written.
>>>
>>> Oh, bullshit. Can't read what you can't be arsed to look for, more
>>> like.
>>
>> We've posted link after link.
>> I can't remember even once where she came back and said, I read
>> that, and it didn't answer my question. Or, heaven forbid she'd
>> read a link and come back and admit we were right, the documentation
>> is there and it works.
>>
>> Nope, it's the complain disease.
>
> She doesn't read links on the web. If the web is the only place
> documentation exists, for her it might as well not exist. Given the
> invasion routes a web browser opens up, she may get the last laugh.
Usenet - okay
Web - scary
Apparently, not afraid of paper, we don't know how she'd do with
stone tablets.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211841 is a reply to message #211801] |
Tue, 17 December 2013 13:55 |
Patrick Scheible
Messages: 768
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
> Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> writes:
>
>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>
>>> Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> >>>>> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>>
>>>> >> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer
>>>> >> in front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
>>>>
>>>> BAH> Can't read what hasn't been written.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, bullshit. Can't read what you can't be arsed to look for, more
>>>> like.
>>>
>>> We've posted link after link.
>>> I can't remember even once where she came back and said, I read
>>> that, and it didn't answer my question. Or, heaven forbid she'd
>>> read a link and come back and admit we were right, the documentation
>>> is there and it works.
>>>
>>> Nope, it's the complain disease.
>>
>> She doesn't read links on the web. If the web is the only place
>> documentation exists, for her it might as well not exist. Given the
>> invasion routes a web browser opens up, she may get the last laugh.
>
> Usenet - okay
> Web - scary
Usenet doesn't try to execute whatever code it finds...
-- Patrick
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211844 is a reply to message #211841] |
Tue, 17 December 2013 14:17 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> writes:
> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>
>> Patrick Scheible <kkt@zipcon.net> writes:
>>
>>> Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net> writes:
>>>
>>>> Charlton Wilbur <cwilbur@chromatico.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> "BAH" == jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> writes:
>>>> >
>>>> > >> And yet now you refuse to read the documentation on the computer
>>>> > >> in front of you. What changed in the intervening time?
>>>> >
>>>> > BAH> Can't read what hasn't been written.
>>>> >
>>>> > Oh, bullshit. Can't read what you can't be arsed to look for, more
>>>> > like.
>>>>
>>>> We've posted link after link.
>>>> I can't remember even once where she came back and said, I read
>>>> that, and it didn't answer my question. Or, heaven forbid she'd
>>>> read a link and come back and admit we were right, the documentation
>>>> is there and it works.
>>>>
>>>> Nope, it's the complain disease.
>>>
>>> She doesn't read links on the web. If the web is the only place
>>> documentation exists, for her it might as well not exist. Given the
>>> invasion routes a web browser opens up, she may get the last laugh.
>>
>> Usenet - okay
>> Web - scary
>
> Usenet doesn't try to execute whatever code it finds...
True, but neither does a correctly implemented web browser.
Then we have some people posting HTML to Usenet.
--
Dan Espen
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211863 is a reply to message #211852] |
Tue, 17 December 2013 16:21 |
scott
Messages: 4237
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 2:17:12 PM UTC-5, MLCWA wrote:
>
>> True, but neither does a correctly implemented web browser.
>
> How many folks know how to correctly implement a web browser? To properly set up a thorough virus scanner?
>
What makes you think a "virus scanner" is necessary in a web browser?
A web browser shouldn't execute downloaded content at all. That's the biggest mistake
that Microsoft made way-back-when, allowing executable content (even word macros).
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| Re: The Mother of All Demos: The 1968 presentation that sparked a tech revolution [message #211869 is a reply to message #211863] |
Tue, 17 December 2013 17:07 |
Dan Espen
Messages: 3867
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) writes:
> hancock4@bbs.cpcn.com writes:
>> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 2:17:12 PM UTC-5, MLCWA wrote:
>>
>>> True, but neither does a correctly implemented web browser.
>>
>> How many folks know how to correctly implement a web browser? To properly set up a thorough virus scanner?
>>
>
> What makes you think a "virus scanner" is necessary in a web browser?
Agreed, the bugs should be fixed instead.
> A web browser shouldn't execute downloaded content at all. That's the biggest mistake
> that Microsoft made way-back-when, allowing executable content (even word macros).
Having recently been forced into the world of Windows,
I'm surprised at the number of things that just don't work
in Firefox on Windows.
It seems that in the Windows world, the tendency for IE to
execute things is viewed as a good thing.
Looks like some kind of really bad joke to me.
I remember being amazed that a Windows .SCR file is an
executable. Executable Screen Savers? Now that's a really bad idea.
--
Dan Espen
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