| Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188695] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 08:36  |
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Originally posted by: C256
X-No-Archive: yes
The Sinclair Spectrum, had many unique games that were
either never ported to the C64 or that were simply bad,
extremly slow and unplayable.
I wonder if there's a Sinclair Spectrum emulator for the C128
which has a Z80 and 128K RAM and stuff to play the 48K
Spectrum games.
Does such an emulator exist? Is there a way to emulate the
AY sound chip in a C128? Or is there a way to build-in
such a chip?
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188751 is a reply to message #188695] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 13:32  |
David Murray
Messages: 1017
Registered: January 2005
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A more accurate comparison would be like asking if there was a
Nintendo emulator for the C128, since they both share the same CPU.
Remember, any machine that is going to be emulated typically requires
a machine that is an order of magnitude faster and more powerfull to
actually do it.
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188753 is a reply to message #188751] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 13:44 |
aiiadict
Messages: 134
Registered: May 2012
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On Jan 24, 10:32 am, David Murray <adri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A more accurate comparison would be like asking if there was a
> Nintendo emulator for the C128, since they both share the same CPU.
>
how about a converter? shouldn't be too hard to do this:
IF (spectrum specific) THEN (change to C128)
IF (not spectrum specific) THEN (leave it alone)
does c128 have the same CPU as spectrum?
Rich
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188761 is a reply to message #188753] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 15:35 |
Paul E Collins
Messages: 15
Registered: May 2005
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<aiiadict@gmail.com> wrote:
> how about a converter? shouldn't be too hard to do this:
> IF (spectrum specific) THEN (change to C128)
> IF (not spectrum specific) THEN (leave it alone)
I don't suppose that would be practical for most programs you'd want to
emulate. A lot of things call into the ROM to perform common functions,
and that's machine-specific. You'd also have severe headaches trying to
convert things where the facilities just aren't the same (e.g. size and
internal layout of the screen display).
Eq.
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188777 is a reply to message #188776] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 19:19 |
spike1
Messages: 253
Registered: April 2012
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Sam Gillett <sgillettnospam@diespammergte.net> did eloquently scribble:
> <aiiadict@gmail.com> wrote ...
>>
> < does c128 have the same CPU as spectrum?
> The C128 has a Z80 as a secondary processor. The primary processor is an
> 8502, which is a derivative of the 6502 and 6510.
But the real point is, the z80 in the c128 is all but worthless due to the
terrible clockspeed. Whoever designed that machine just didn't think it
through.
--
____________________________________________________________ __________________
| spike1@freenet.co.uk | |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| "The day Microsoft makes something that doesn't |
| in | suck is probably the day they start making |
| Computer science | vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge |
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188780 is a reply to message #188777] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 20:56 |
Sam Gillett
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Registered: June 2003
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<spike1@freenet.co.uk> wrote ...
> Sam Gillett <sgillettnospam@diespammergte.net> did eloquently scribble:
>
>> <aiiadict@gmail.com> wrote ...
>>>
>> < does c128 have the same CPU as spectrum?
>
>> The C128 has a Z80 as a secondary processor. The primary processor is an
>> 8502, which is a derivative of the 6502 and 6510.
>
> But the real point is, the z80 in the c128 is all but worthless due to the
> terrible clockspeed. Whoever designed that machine just didn't think it
> through.
The Z80 was added to give the machine the ability to run CP/M software. The
overall design of the C128 is really quite good.
--
Best regards,
Sam Gillett
Why is the third hand on a watch
called the second hand?
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188785 is a reply to message #188777] |
Thu, 24 January 2008 21:42 |
Jim Brain
Messages: 962
Registered: August 2012
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spike1@freenet.co.uk wrote:
Whoever designed that machine just didn't think it
> through.
I'd invite you to go read the postings by Bil Herd on USENET. The C128
was very much designed with a lot of thought. If Bil and his team
hadn't thought it through, well, who knows what we would have gotten.
Oh, wait, I do know. It's called the Plus/4. It's useless to repeat
the very well-written posts by Bil on c.s.c. Go read them.
Jim
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188791 is a reply to message #188785] |
Fri, 25 January 2008 03:46 |
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Originally posted by: Varga Viktor
> Oh, wait, I do know. It's called the Plus/4. It's useless to repeat
> the very well-written posts by Bil on c.s.c. Go read them.
I thin it isnot impossible to make an emulator.
There was a computer in Hungary called Primo (http://
primo.homeserver.hu) which had a z80, and had different memory layout
than Spectrum.
If you moded it to access all the memory as RAM, then you could load
16k from tape, which had a modified spectrum rom.
If there was a rom call on the quasi emulated machine, the modified
rom doas the same effect as the original, nad of-course, the modified
ROM did it differently, because, the internals of the Primo was
different than the Spectrum.
This kind of emulation was not perfect of-course, a much more Spectrum
specific code, or non standard call can cause errors.
If there is modified spectrum ROM for the C128, it can does the same
as the Spectrum.
Maybe the hardest thing the different graphical memory structure and/
or the speed.
But we can ask a similar question.
Is there VC20 emulator for the C64 or 128?
Nearly same processor and other chips.
Viktor
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188793 is a reply to message #188695] |
Fri, 25 January 2008 04:16 |
Brian Gaff
Messages: 38
Registered: March 2012
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I'd imagine if there was it would be a bit slow, the main problem is going
to be the screenemulation I'd imagine
I used the one on the Memotech, and even that was a bit strange graphically.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"C256" <C256@commodore.c65> wrote in message news:fna4d8$fsf$1@aioe.org...
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> The Sinclair Spectrum, had many unique games that were
> either never ported to the C64 or that were simply bad,
> extremly slow and unplayable.
>
> I wonder if there's a Sinclair Spectrum emulator for the C128
> which has a Z80 and 128K RAM and stuff to play the 48K
> Spectrum games.
>
> Does such an emulator exist? Is there a way to emulate the
> AY sound chip in a C128? Or is there a way to build-in
> such a chip?
>
>
>
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188794 is a reply to message #188753] |
Fri, 25 January 2008 04:21 |
Brian Gaff
Messages: 38
Registered: March 2012
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Not sure what you are proposing. Are you saying modify the software to run
on the c128? Might be sort of possible, basicode style, but not machine code
as lots of dirty programming exploiting the Speccy's simple architecture was
used.
If the C128 had been a great success, then the games would have been ported
over anyhow.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
<aiiadict@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:24de948b-c294-4568-b415-cd832eba1429@v4g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 24, 10:32 am, David Murray <adri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> A more accurate comparison would be like asking if there was a
> Nintendo emulator for the C128, since they both share the same CPU.
>
how about a converter? shouldn't be too hard to do this:
IF (spectrum specific) THEN (change to C128)
IF (not spectrum specific) THEN (leave it alone)
does c128 have the same CPU as spectrum?
Rich
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188795 is a reply to message #188777] |
Fri, 25 January 2008 04:24 |
Brian Gaff
Messages: 38
Registered: March 2012
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Yes, but they were stuffed by the other hardware in the machine thus without
a lot more work, upping the Z80 speed would not have been possible.
Brian
--
Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
<spike1@freenet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6hmn65-vgq.ln1@ridcully.ntlworld.com...
> Sam Gillett <sgillettnospam@diespammergte.net> did eloquently scribble:
>
>> <aiiadict@gmail.com> wrote ...
>>>
>> < does c128 have the same CPU as spectrum?
>
>> The C128 has a Z80 as a secondary processor. The primary processor is an
>> 8502, which is a derivative of the 6502 and 6510.
>
> But the real point is, the z80 in the c128 is all but worthless due to the
> terrible clockspeed. Whoever designed that machine just didn't think it
> through.
> --
> ____________________________________________________________ __________________
> | spike1@freenet.co.uk |
> |
> |Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| "The day Microsoft makes something that
> doesn't |
> | in | suck is probably the day they start making
> |
> | Computer science | vacuum cleaners" - Ernst Jan Plugge
> |
> ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188797 is a reply to message #188695] |
Fri, 25 January 2008 05:50 |
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Originally posted by: DanSolo
On Jan 24, 1:36 pm, "C256" <C...@commodore.c65> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> The Sinclair Spectrum, had many unique games that were
> either never ported to the C64 or that were simply bad,
> extremly slow and unplayable.
>
> I wonder if there's a Sinclair Spectrum emulator for the C128
> which has a Z80 and 128K RAM and stuff to play the 48K
> Spectrum games.
>
> Does such an emulator exist? Is there a way to emulate the
> AY sound chip in a C128? Or is there a way to build-in
> such a chip?
There sure is emulator... boot into C64 mode and load
ftp://ftp.worldofspectrum.org/pub/sinclair/emulators/c64/c64 2spec.zip
Well it'll run some BASIC games, but that's as close as you're ever
going to get I'm afraid!
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188826 is a reply to message #188797] |
Sat, 26 January 2008 10:21 |
Andrew Owen
Messages: 17
Registered: May 2012
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There is no reason you couldn't write a Spectrum emulator for the C128.
It would be pretty slow though. Although you can't use the 8502 and the
Z80 at the same time I don't see why you couldn't use the 8502 to handle
the hardware emulation and just use the Z80 when you needed it.
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188915 is a reply to message #188901] |
Mon, 28 January 2008 13:42 |
spike1
Messages: 253
Registered: April 2012
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Old Speccyman <cerelli@interfree.it> did eloquently scribble:
> Hi, if it's possible to run the (128 emulated) C64 at 2Mhz i think
> that the emulated speccy will have the same speed of the original one !
Errrrr... no
The z80 in the spectrum doesn't run at 2Mhz.
It runs at 3.5 Mhz.
--
____________________________________________________________ __________________
| spike1@freenet.co.uk | "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell BSc(hons)| |
| in | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
| Computer Science | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188916 is a reply to message #188915] |
Mon, 28 January 2008 14:32 |
Andrew Owen
Messages: 17
Registered: May 2012
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spike1@freenet.co.uk wrote:
> Old Speccyman <cerelli@interfree.it> did eloquently scribble:
>> Hi, if it's possible to run the (128 emulated) C64 at 2Mhz i think
>> that the emulated speccy will have the same speed of the original one !
>
> Errrrr... no
> The z80 in the spectrum doesn't run at 2Mhz.
> It runs at 3.5 Mhz.
It would probably be easier to emulate a Vic 20 on the Spectrum. We've
already got a working 6502 core (as used in the Apple I emulator).
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188928 is a reply to message #188785] |
Mon, 28 January 2008 17:16 |
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Originally posted by: BruceMcF
On Jan 24, 9:42 pm, Jim Brain <br...@jbrain.com> wrote:
> I'd invite you to go read the postings by Bil Herd on USENET. The C128
> was very much designed with a lot of thought. If Bil and his team
> hadn't thought it through, well, who knows what we would have gotten.
As a next stage to the Commodore 64, it was indeed well thought
through. However, as a CP/M-Plus machine, the clock speed of the Z80
left it almost fatally flawed. Given that running the Z80 at 8MHz with
liberal use of wait states to synchronize to the 8502 bus was not
possible with the Z80 as tightly integrated as it was in the system,
then the commercial solution of that piece of the puzzle required less
tight integration of the Z80.
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188932 is a reply to message #188928] |
Mon, 28 January 2008 18:04 |
Jim Brain
Messages: 962
Registered: August 2012
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BruceMcF wrote:
> On Jan 24, 9:42 pm, Jim Brain <br...@jbrain.com> wrote:
>> I'd invite you to go read the postings by Bil Herd on USENET. The C128
>> was very much designed with a lot of thought. If Bil and his team
>> hadn't thought it through, well, who knows what we would have gotten.
>
> As a next stage to the Commodore 64, it was indeed well thought
> through. However, as a CP/M-Plus machine, the clock speed of the Z80
> left it almost fatally flawed. Given that running the Z80 at 8MHz with
> liberal use of wait states to synchronize to the 8502 bus was not
> possible with the Z80 as tightly integrated as it was in the system,
> then the commercial solution of that piece of the puzzle required less
> tight integration of the Z80.
That assumes it was designed as a CP/M PLus machine. It was not. Bil
was against the idea of adding Z80 support, but Marketing had already
touted the business uses, assuming people would buy the C64 CP/M cart to
use it in that fashion. They were not aware (or chose to ignore) that
the CP/M cart did not work on later models of C64, and barely worked on
the older models. Bil was then faced with the insurmountable task of
making a cart that didn;t even work on the C64 work with the C128.
As Bil tells it, one night, he just "accidentally" designed the cart
into the mainboard, to address the issue.
Later on, the existance of the Z80 came to save the C128, as some
cartridges abused the cartridge port signals to such an extent that they
would not work right on the C128. Thus, on the C128, the Z80 starts up
first, checks the cartridge port signals, sets the MMU, and then passes
control to the 8502.
But, I will submit that the Z80 was not a design goal at all. CBM would
have been happy to pawn off the old Z80 CP/M cart on C128 buyers for
CP/M usage had it worked.
Jim
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #188952 is a reply to message #188928] |
Tue, 29 January 2008 08:16 |
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Originally posted by: retrocomtoday
There is a Sinclair Spectrum BASIC emulator for the Commodore 64 which
runs at about 70% + speed when compared to running the same BASIC
program on a Sinclair (depending on what it is doing, of course), will
LOAD and SAVE programs from cassette tape and might even do LOAD ""
SCREEN$ - but it won't do machine code, of course. It works really
well considering the limitations. Now, I wonder if I can find it?
Regards,
Shaun.
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #189029 is a reply to message #188695] |
Thu, 31 January 2008 18:28 |
Kelli Halliburton
Messages: 132
Registered: August 2003
Karma: 0
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C256 wrote:
> X-No-Archive: yes
>
> The Sinclair Spectrum, had many unique games that were
> either never ported to the C64 or that were simply bad,
> extremly slow and unplayable.
>
> I wonder if there's a Sinclair Spectrum emulator for the C128
> which has a Z80 and 128K RAM and stuff to play the 48K
> Spectrum games.
>
> Does such an emulator exist? Is there a way to emulate the
> AY sound chip in a C128? Or is there a way to build-in
> such a chip?
You might well ask. The thing is, it's very difficult to emulate a
machine that uses considerably different supplemental hardware, even if
the CPU is the same.
The problem is not in the CPU-intensive parts of the code; that would of
course run identically. The problem is that for every hardware access,
execution would have to be suspended in order to translate the necessary
address, register, and/or flag from the original to the appropriate host
value.
Neither the VIC nor the VDC on the 128 is similar enough to the display
hardware on the Spectrum to not require a rather extensive translation
before what a Spectrum would display would be displayed on a 128. And
the SID is similarly different from the AY.
Those are the biggest examples, but even things like the VIA on the 128
don't work the same as the equivalent hardware on the Spectrum. That
affects things like storage devices and communications programs and
joystick and mouse input.
It's certainly possible to interface an AY sound chip to a 128. Would
that be the secret to making a Spectrum emulator? No.
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| Re: Is there a Spectrum emulator for the C128? [message #189050 is a reply to message #188920] |
Fri, 01 February 2008 14:39 |
Andrew Owen
Messages: 17
Registered: May 2012
Karma: 0
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MagerValp wrote:
>>>> >> "AO" == Andrew Owen <cheveron@gmail.com> writes:
>
> AO> It would probably be easier to emulate a Vic 20 on the Spectrum.
> AO> We've already got a working 6502 core (as used in the Apple I
> AO> emulator).
>
> CPU emulation is trivial, it's video emulation that's hard (aka slow).
True, but it should be possible to set up an interrupt driven display
routine to convert the VIC information. Granted it's not going to run at
100% speed, but it should be doable.
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