| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #386992] |
Fri, 13 September 2019 00:10  |
Quadibloc
Messages: 4399
Registered: June 2012
Karma: 0
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On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 9:37:35 AM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
> Stalin had better technology and more people to work with. There
> weren't that many Native Americans, and we were killing a lot of them
> with biologic warfare (disease), some unintentionally and some on
> purpose. But I was thinking more of Vietnam, in the context of Mai
> Lai, and "we had to destroy the village to save it".
My Lai.
> Why, it's as if the US had a block of states declare they weren't part
> of the US anymore.
There is no comparison. South Vietnam had not been previously under the rule of Ho Chi Minh's government. And its independence from that government was not to perpetrate an evil like slavery.
No; Ho Chi Minh committed aggression against the land and people of South
Vietnam because he wished to subject them to his tyranny.
> Sometimes it's hard to tell whether there's an implicit "/s" tag. I
> agree, if the soldier is staying at home minding his own business.
There wasn't, despite the fact I was quoting Trump who I generally disagree
with.
In general, America has not gone to war to commit evil acts of aggression. Mot
lately. I mean, if you go far enough back, there's the Philippines, there's
toppling Arbenz in Guatemala, but lately they've been pretty solidly on the side
of liberty and justice.
John Savard
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #387027 is a reply to message #386992] |
Fri, 13 September 2019 20:22  |
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Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 21:10:07 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 9:37:35 AM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
>
>> Stalin had better technology and more people to work with. There
>> weren't that many Native Americans, and we were killing a lot of them
>> with biologic warfare (disease), some unintentionally and some on
>> purpose. But I was thinking more of Vietnam, in the context of Mai
>> Lai, and "we had to destroy the village to save it".
>
> My Lai.
>
>> Why, it's as if the US had a block of states declare they weren't part
>> of the US anymore.
>
> There is no comparison. South Vietnam had not been previously under the rule of Ho Chi Minh's government. And its independence from that government was not to perpetrate an evil like slavery.
>
> No; Ho Chi Minh committed aggression against the land and people of South
> Vietnam because he wished to subject them to his tyranny.
>
>> Sometimes it's hard to tell whether there's an implicit "/s" tag. I
>> agree, if the soldier is staying at home minding his own business.
>
> There wasn't, despite the fact I was quoting Trump who I generally disagree
> with.
>
> In general, America has not gone to war to commit evil acts of aggression. Mot
> lately. I mean, if you go far enough back, there's the Philippines, there's
> toppling Arbenz in Guatemala, but lately they've been pretty solidly on the side
> of liberty and justice.
Based on results it looks more like being on the side of chaos.
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #387030 is a reply to message #386992] |
Fri, 13 September 2019 23:13 |
sidd
Messages: 239
Registered: July 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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In article <11f47c2a-4690-4e50-b996-de0221e99636@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <jsavard@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 9:37:35 AM UTC-6, Dave Garland wrote:
snip--
> No; Ho Chi Minh committed aggression against the land and people of South
> Vietnam because he wished to subject them to his tyranny.
>
>> Sometimes it's hard to tell whether there's an implicit "/s" tag. I
>> agree, if the soldier is staying at home minding his own business.
>
> There wasn't, despite the fact I was quoting Trump who I generally disagree
> with.
>
> In general, America has not gone to war to commit evil acts of aggression. Mot
> lately. I mean, if you go far enough back, there's the Philippines, there's
> toppling Arbenz in Guatemala, but lately they've been pretty solidly on
> the side
> of liberty and justice.
Your name is Poe and I demand my five pounds.
sidd
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388220 is a reply to message #388209] |
Fri, 01 November 2019 22:58 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> writes:
> And the United Fruit Company.
Smedley Butler, retired USMC major general and two-time Medal of Honor
Recipient
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
wrote War Is A Racket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
Butler was invited to participate in military/fascists overthrow of the
US Gov. ... and blew the whistle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
In the last few weeks of the committee's official life it received
evidence showing that certain persons had made an attempt to establish a
fascist organization in this country. No evidence was presented and this
committee had none to show a connection between this effort and any
fascist activity of any European country. There is no question that
these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed
in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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| Re: OT, "new" Heinlein book [message #388221 is a reply to message #388220] |
Fri, 01 November 2019 23:32 |
Anne & Lynn Wheel
Messages: 3156
Registered: January 2012
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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sincie ww2, there is Iran ... The World Crisis, Vol. 1, Churchill
explains the mess in middle east started with move from 13.5in to 15in
guns (requiring move from coal to oil) before WW1; loc2012-14:
From the beginning there appeared a ship carrying ten 15-inch guns, and
therefore at least 600 feet long with room inside her for engines which
would drive her 21 knots and capacity to carry armour which on the
armoured belt, the turrets and the conning tower would reach the
thickness unprecedented in the British Service of 13 inches.
loc2087-89:
To build any large additional number of oil-burning ships meant basing
our naval supremacy upon oil. But oil was not found in appreciable
quantities in our islands. If we required it, we must carry it by sea in
peace or war from distant countries.
loc2151-56:
This led to enormous expense and to tremendous opposition on the Naval
Estimates. Yet it was absolutely impossible to turn back. We could only
fight our way forward, and finally we found our way to the Anglo-Persian
Oil agreement and contract, which for an initial investment of two
millions of public money (subsequently increased to five millions) has
not only secured to the Navy a very substantial proportion of its oil
supply, but has led to the acquisition by the Government of a
controlling share in oil properties and interests which are at present
valued at scores of millions sterling, and also to very considerable
economies, which are still continuing, in the purchase price of
Admiralty oil.
.... snip ...
When the newly elected democratic government wanted to review the
Anglo-Persian contract, US arranged coup and backed Shah as front
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kermit_Roosevelt,_Jr%2E
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9ta t
.... and Schwarzkoph (senior) training of the secret police to help keep
Shah in power
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAVAK
then US again when the US client repressive gov. is overthown in 1979.
Then "Is Harvard responsible for the rise of Putin" ... after the fall
of the soviet union, those sent over to teach capitalism were more
intent on looting the country (and Russians needed somebody to oppose US
looting). John Helmer: Convicted Fraudster Jonathan Hay, Harvard's Man
Who Wrecked Russia, Resurfaces in Ukraine
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/02/convicted-fraudster-j onathan-hay-harvards-man-who-wrecked-russia-resurfaces-in-uk raine.html
If you are unfamiliar with this fiasco, which was also the true
proximate cause of Larry Summers' ouster from Harvard, you must read an
extraordinary expose, How Harvard Lost Russia, from Institutional
Investor. I am told copies of this article were stuffed in every Harvard
faculty member's inbox the day Summers got a vote of no confidence and
resigned shortly thereafter.
.... snip ...
How Harvard lost Russia; The best and brightest of America's premier
university came to Moscow in the 1990s to teach Russians how to be
capitalists. This is the inside story of how their efforts led to
scandal and disgrace (gone 404, but lives on at wayback machine)
https://web.archive.org/web/20130211131020/http://www.instit utionalinvestor.com/Article/1020662/How-Harvard-lost-Russia. html
Mostly, they hurt Russia and its hopes of establishing a lasting
framework for a stable Western-style capitalism, as Summers himself
acknowledged when he testified under oath in the U.S. lawsuit in
Cambridge in 2002. "The project was of enormous value," said Summers,
who by then had been installed as the president of Harvard. "Its
cessation was damaging to Russian economic reform and to the
U.S.-Russian relationship."
.... snip ...
"Economic Hit Man" strategy dates back to at least Butler, and also
starts out in Cambridge ... somewhat down the street from Harvard
.... convincing countries to over extend themselves with debt ... so the
US can come in and loot their resources; Rondonization: World Bank,
Dictatorship and the Amazon. The development philosophy behind the fires
in the Amazon is based on the World Bank funded, Dictatorship era
Polonoroeste project, which killed thousands and devastated Rondonia's
rainforest. To Bolsonaro and his military aids, there was nothing wrong
with it.
http://www.brasilwire.com/rondonization-world-bank-dictators hip-and-the-amazon/
world bank appears to always have played a major role in EHM; The New
Confessions of an Economic Hit Man (John Perkins)
https://www.amazon.com/New-Confessions-Economic-Hit-Man-eboo k/dp/B017MZ8EBM/
Economic Hit Man
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_H it_Man which
strategy extends back at least to WAR IS RACKET
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket
More EHM
https://www.bkconnection.com/bkblog/jeevan-sivasubramaniam/f ive-examples-of-how-economic-hit-men-still-operate-globally- today
More EHM, including against our own people
https://www.yesmagazine.org/new-economy/more-confessions-of- an-economic-hit-man-this-time-theyre-coming-for-your-democra cy-20160318
also the economic mess last decade, "Confidence Men", has several
references that essentially wallstreet was using the EHM (economic hit
men) debt strategy against the American public.
https://www.amazon.com/Confidence-Men-Washington-Education-e book/dp/B0089LOKKS/
current news is China now using "debt bombs" ... emulating the "economic
hit man" practices.
--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970
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