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Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373366] Thu, 06 September 2018 20:27 Go to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: cb meeks

I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no complaints. :-D

On the board, it has an EPROM (UV light) on C66. However, it has a riser card under it. I took off the EPROM and there is some IC that I can't make out. The numbers are almost completely gone.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y23zqe9bgdkvs6t/A2e.png?dl=0

I don't have the ability to power it on at the moment but I probably will this weekend. There is another EPROM on C67 but this one is not on a riser card.

I can get some better pics later but I thought I would see if anyone knew of a common mod this could be.

Assuming the board works, I guess I will find out later.

Thanks for any info.
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373368 is a reply to message #373366] Thu, 06 September 2018 21:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dempson is currently offline  dempson
Messages: 49
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Member
cb meeks <cbmeeks@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no
> complaints. :-D
>
> On the board, it has an EPROM (UV light) on C66. However, it has a riser
> card under it. I took off the EPROM and there is some IC that I can't
> make out. The numbers are almost completely gone.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y23zqe9bgdkvs6t/A2e.png?dl=0

Based on the height, and assuming it has a ~16 pin chip inside the
socket, it is probably a "No Slot Clock", which uses the PROM/EPROM
variant of the Dallas SmartWatch chip. There is a battery inside the
body of the socket extender which may be long dead.

The NSC works by recognising an unusual pattern of addresses accesses
then accepting commands and data via the low order bit of the address
bus or delivering data via the low order bit of the data bus (blocking
that signal from the PROM/EPROM), otherwise passes everything through.
It has a driver which is installed in ProDOS to replace the standard
Thunerclock driver.

> I don't have the ability to power it on at the moment but I probably will
> this weekend. There is another EPROM on C67 but this one is not on a
> riser card.
>
> I can get some better pics later but I thought I would see if anyone knew
> of a common mod this could be.
>
> Assuming the board works, I guess I will find out later.
>
> Thanks for any info.


--
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373369 is a reply to message #373368] Thu, 06 September 2018 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: cb meeks

On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 9:30:32 PM UTC-4, David Empson wrote:
> cb meeks <cbmeeks@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no
>> complaints. :-D
>>
>> On the board, it has an EPROM (UV light) on C66. However, it has a riser
>> card under it. I took off the EPROM and there is some IC that I can't
>> make out. The numbers are almost completely gone.
>>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y23zqe9bgdkvs6t/A2e.png?dl=0
>
> Based on the height, and assuming it has a ~16 pin chip inside the
> socket, it is probably a "No Slot Clock", which uses the PROM/EPROM
> variant of the Dallas SmartWatch chip. There is a battery inside the
> body of the socket extender which may be long dead.
>
> The NSC works by recognising an unusual pattern of addresses accesses
> then accepting commands and data via the low order bit of the address
> bus or delivering data via the low order bit of the data bus (blocking
> that signal from the PROM/EPROM), otherwise passes everything through.
> It has a driver which is installed in ProDOS to replace the standard
> Thunerclock driver.
>
>> I don't have the ability to power it on at the moment but I probably will
>> this weekend. There is another EPROM on C67 but this one is not on a
>> riser card.
>>
>> I can get some better pics later but I thought I would see if anyone knew
>> of a common mod this could be.
>>
>> Assuming the board works, I guess I will find out later.
>>
>> Thanks for any info.
>
>
> --
> David Empson
> dempson@actrix.gen.nz



Ah! You may be right. I managed to pull it out and the bottom looks thick like there could be a battery inside. I don't see any way of looking inside without destroying it.

This weekend I will test it out. Assuming that's the case, is there another option for replacing the battery?

Also, do you think the custom ROM in C67 would be related?

https://www.dropbox.com/s/az1p2qgddm0z2jx/Photo%20Sep%2006%2 C%2010%2000%2002%20PM.jpg?dl=0


Thanks!
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373378 is a reply to message #373369] Fri, 07 September 2018 05:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dempson is currently offline  dempson
Messages: 49
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Member
cb meeks <cbmeeks@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 9:30:32 PM UTC-4, David Empson wrote:
>> cb meeks <cbmeeks@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no
>>> complaints. :-D
>>>
>>> On the board, it has an EPROM (UV light) on C66. However, it has a riser
>>> card under it. I took off the EPROM and there is some IC that I can't
>>> make out. The numbers are almost completely gone.
>>>
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y23zqe9bgdkvs6t/A2e.png?dl=0
>>
>> Based on the height, and assuming it has a ~16 pin chip inside the
>> socket, it is probably a "No Slot Clock", which uses the PROM/EPROM
>> variant of the Dallas SmartWatch chip. There is a battery inside the
>> body of the socket extender which may be long dead.
>>
>> The NSC works by recognising an unusual pattern of addresses accesses
>> then accepting commands and data via the low order bit of the address
>> bus or delivering data via the low order bit of the data bus (blocking
>> that signal from the PROM/EPROM), otherwise passes everything through.
>> It has a driver which is installed in ProDOS to replace the standard
>> Thunerclock driver.
>>
>>> I don't have the ability to power it on at the moment but I probably will
>>> this weekend. There is another EPROM on C67 but this one is not on a
>>> riser card.
>>>
>>> I can get some better pics later but I thought I would see if anyone knew
>>> of a common mod this could be.
>>>
>>> Assuming the board works, I guess I will find out later.
>>>
>>> Thanks for any info.
>
>
> Ah! You may be right. I managed to pull it out and the bottom looks
> thick like there could be a battery inside. I don't see any way of
> looking inside without destroying it.
>
> This weekend I will test it out. Assuming that's the case, is there
> another option for replacing the battery?

We used Dallas SmartSockets and SmartWatches at work many years ago and
I was never aware of a way of opening them to replace the battery
without destroyinng them.

> Also, do you think the custom ROM in C67 would be related?

Not likely. The code to talk to the No Slot Clock cannot run from the
PROM/EPROM in the same socket - it has to be running elsewhere so all
accesses to the address space of the socket are under control of the
clock driver for the duration of the clock read or write operation.

> https://www.dropbox.com/s/az1p2qgddm0z2jx/Photo%20Sep%2006%2 C%2010%2000%2002%20PM.jpg?dl=0

I can't read the number on the chip in the photo but it should be a
DS1216 if is a Dallas Semiconductor SmartWatch.

Further confirmation: the "E" silk-screened onto the circuit board next
to the chip is the suffix Dallas used for the PROM/EPROM variant of the
SmartWatch. I found the data sheet:

https://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS1216-DS1216H.pdf

We used the "C" variant (for static RAM chips) in our products at my
work somewhere around the early 1990s.

--
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373379 is a reply to message #373378] Fri, 07 September 2018 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: cb meeks

On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 5:05:07 AM UTC-4, David Empson wrote:
> cb meeks <cbmeeks@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 9:30:32 PM UTC-4, David Empson wrote:
>>> cb meeks <cbmeeks@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no
>>>> complaints. :-D
>>>>
>>>> On the board, it has an EPROM (UV light) on C66. However, it has a riser
>>>> card under it. I took off the EPROM and there is some IC that I can't
>>>> make out. The numbers are almost completely gone.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y23zqe9bgdkvs6t/A2e.png?dl=0
>>>
>>> Based on the height, and assuming it has a ~16 pin chip inside the
>>> socket, it is probably a "No Slot Clock", which uses the PROM/EPROM
>>> variant of the Dallas SmartWatch chip. There is a battery inside the
>>> body of the socket extender which may be long dead.
>>>
>>> The NSC works by recognising an unusual pattern of addresses accesses
>>> then accepting commands and data via the low order bit of the address
>>> bus or delivering data via the low order bit of the data bus (blocking
>>> that signal from the PROM/EPROM), otherwise passes everything through.
>>> It has a driver which is installed in ProDOS to replace the standard
>>> Thunerclock driver.
>>>
>>>> I don't have the ability to power it on at the moment but I probably will
>>>> this weekend. There is another EPROM on C67 but this one is not on a
>>>> riser card.
>>>>
>>>> I can get some better pics later but I thought I would see if anyone knew
>>>> of a common mod this could be.
>>>>
>>>> Assuming the board works, I guess I will find out later.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any info.
>>
>>
>> Ah! You may be right. I managed to pull it out and the bottom looks
>> thick like there could be a battery inside. I don't see any way of
>> looking inside without destroying it.
>>
>> This weekend I will test it out. Assuming that's the case, is there
>> another option for replacing the battery?
>
> We used Dallas SmartSockets and SmartWatches at work many years ago and
> I was never aware of a way of opening them to replace the battery
> without destroyinng them.
>
>> Also, do you think the custom ROM in C67 would be related?
>
> Not likely. The code to talk to the No Slot Clock cannot run from the
> PROM/EPROM in the same socket - it has to be running elsewhere so all
> accesses to the address space of the socket are under control of the
> clock driver for the duration of the clock read or write operation.
>
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/az1p2qgddm0z2jx/Photo%20Sep%2006%2 C%2010%2000%2002%20PM.jpg?dl=0
>
> I can't read the number on the chip in the photo but it should be a
> DS1216 if is a Dallas Semiconductor SmartWatch.
>
> Further confirmation: the "E" silk-screened onto the circuit board next
> to the chip is the suffix Dallas used for the PROM/EPROM variant of the
> SmartWatch. I found the data sheet:
>
> https://pdfserv.maximintegrated.com/en/ds/DS1216-DS1216H.pdf
>
> We used the "C" variant (for static RAM chips) in our products at my
> work somewhere around the early 1990s.
>
> --
> David Empson
> dempson@actrix.gen.nz



Awesome. Thanks for your help on this. I will more then likely replace it with something else as I don't like having a 20+ year old dead battery in my computer. :-)

I don't have a case for this motherboard anyway so I may just use it as a bench PC.

I assume I should be able to find the original ROM's online and maybe put in new chips. I don't have a way of erasing the UV EPROM's.
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373380 is a reply to message #373366] Fri, 07 September 2018 08:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: cb meeks

On Thursday, September 6, 2018 at 8:28:01 PM UTC-4, cb meeks wrote:
> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no complaints. :-D
>
> On the board, it has an EPROM (UV light) on C66. However, it has a riser card under it. I took off the EPROM and there is some IC that I can't make out. The numbers are almost completely gone.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/y23zqe9bgdkvs6t/A2e.png?dl=0
>
> I don't have the ability to power it on at the moment but I probably will this weekend. There is another EPROM on C67 but this one is not on a riser card.
>
> I can get some better pics later but I thought I would see if anyone knew of a common mod this could be.
>
> Assuming the board works, I guess I will find out later.
>
> Thanks for any info.



UPDATE. That's definitely a NOSLOT Clock. I even found a picture of it in the Sophistication & Simplicity book.

Thanks
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373381 is a reply to message #373366] Fri, 07 September 2018 10:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: frank_o_rama

Looks like both your CD and EF ROMs are aftermarket, as well as your video ROM. Might have custom code and fonts?

Make sure to straighten out any pin headers before firing it up. Your modulator header looks like it might have a couple pins shorting out.

You can test the board (if the ROM code is original) with only power by looking for a blink on the LED on the bottom right of your first picture. It's connected to the speaker line and will flash if there's a beep with no speaker connected.

Manila Gear makes a replacement NSC with battery headers if you're not into "fly surgery".
https://manilagear.com/product/no-slot-clock/

Or if you are....
http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/5160/ds1216e/ds1216e_battery _warning.htm

f
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373390 is a reply to message #373366] Fri, 07 September 2018 16:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM

cb meeks wrote:

> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no
> complaints. :-D

A IIe Rev.A board build in Malaysia with datecode 8328. Nice :-)

Are there any other pics from Rev.A boards? Mine is "Made in Singapore"
with datecode 8252. And it's a bit different. I.e. there is no jumper
block J19.

Regards
Ralf
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373393 is a reply to message #373390] Fri, 07 September 2018 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: cb meeks

On Friday, September 7, 2018 at 4:53:29 PM UTC-4, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
> cb meeks wrote:
>
>> I just got another Apple IIe motherboard (board only) for $9.99. So no
>> complaints. :-D
>
> A IIe Rev.A board build in Malaysia with datecode 8328. Nice :-)
>
> Are there any other pics from Rev.A boards? Mine is "Made in Singapore"
> with datecode 8252. And it's a bit different. I.e. there is no jumper
> block J19.
>
> Regards
> Ralf


Hmm. Sorry, I don't know much about the various revisions. Is there anything special (rare) about my board? I have several other Apple IIe's but I'm not sure of their revision numbers or dates. But now I'm curious.
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373403 is a reply to message #373393] Sat, 08 September 2018 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: R.Kiefer.SPAEM

cb meeks wrote:

> Hmm. Sorry, I don't know much about the various revisions. Is there
> anything special (rare) about my board? I have several other Apple
> IIe's but I'm not sure of their revision numbers or dates. But now I'm
> curious.

Rev.A boards don't have Double Hires graphics. If you use a 80col/64k
board in the AUX slot, the jumper must be open.

AFAIK they were produced just for some months (6 months?).

Regards
Ralf
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373409 is a reply to message #373403] Sat, 08 September 2018 16:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: cb meeks

On Saturday, September 8, 2018 at 4:35:06 AM UTC-4, Ralf Kiefer wrote:
> cb meeks wrote:
>
>> Hmm. Sorry, I don't know much about the various revisions. Is there
>> anything special (rare) about my board? I have several other Apple
>> IIe's but I'm not sure of their revision numbers or dates. But now I'm
>> curious.
>
> Rev.A boards don't have Double Hires graphics. If you use a 80col/64k
> board in the AUX slot, the jumper must be open.
>
> AFAIK they were produced just for some months (6 months?).
>
> Regards
> Ralf

Oh wow. I didn't know that. Does anyone know how many Rev A boards were made?

In fact, I would be curious on all of the revision numbers sold.

Thanks!
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373410 is a reply to message #373366] Sat, 08 September 2018 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
Karma:
Originally posted by: James Davis

About the battery/ies: I thought I read somewhere once that they could be easily replaced from underneath the inner chip by pulling it out of its socked first. But, after seeing all these pictures and documents about it, I doubt IIRC! :-)
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373411 is a reply to message #373410] Sat, 08 September 2018 18:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Michael Black is currently offline  Michael Black
Messages: 2799
Registered: February 2012
Karma: 0
Senior Member
On Sat, 8 Sep 2018, James Davis wrote:

> About the battery/ies: I thought I read somewhere once that they could
> be easily replaced from underneath the inner chip by pulling it out of
> its socked first. But, after seeing all these pictures and documents
> about it, I doubt IIRC! :-)
>
I have a vague memory of that sort of clock being available with an
external bettery. But it's been a long time, and I don't even reember if
it was the same sort of clock or some other clock.

It doesn't really matter since the poster seems to have one where the
battery is internal, so whatever else there might have been won't help him
here.

Michael
Re: Apple IIe mod is unknown [message #373412 is a reply to message #373411] Sat, 08 September 2018 20:22 Go to previous message
dempson is currently offline  dempson
Messages: 49
Registered: October 2012
Karma: 0
Member
Michael Black <mblack@pubnix.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 8 Sep 2018, James Davis wrote:
>
>> About the battery/ies: I thought I read somewhere once that they could
>> be easily replaced from underneath the inner chip by pulling it out of
>> its socked first. But, after seeing all these pictures and documents
>> about it, I doubt IIRC! :-)
>>
> I have a vague memory of that sort of clock being available with an
> external bettery. But it's been a long time, and I don't even reember if
> it was the same sort of clock or some other clock.

The Dallas memory backup/clock chip used in the No Slot Clock was
certainly sold separately and could be used with an external battery.

At my work we used the integrated SmartSocket or SmartWatch as a
retrofit in earlier circuit boards to make the static RAM nonvolatile
and to add a real time clock when needed, but later designs used a
separate controller chip and battery on the main circuit board.

I don't know offhand if anyone made some kind of No Slot Clock variant
for the Apple II with that arrangement, e.g. a small interposing circuit
board which plugged into one of the PROM sockets and had the battery on
a protruding ledge, plus a socket for the PROM.

> It doesn't really matter since the poster seems to have one where the
> battery is internal, so whatever else there might have been won't help him
> here.

--
David Empson
dempson@actrix.gen.nz
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