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Retro computing and gaming, sci-fi books, tv and movies and other geeky stuff.What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410715&th=113225#msg_410715
First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
Jason]]>faux_dameron2021-09-05T09:55:25-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410721&th=113225#msg_410721
Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 05/09/2021 10:55, Jason Evans wrote:
> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>
> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>
> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
Well, by jerking the slide from the middle of your slide rule, you could
use it to move the pebbles of your abacus.]]>2021-09-05T10:35:24-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410734&th=113225#msg_410734
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor
On 9/5/21 3:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a
> Linux/Unix/BSD system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the
> command line. What is the oldest computer that he could get by with
> to do his job?
The problem is the remaining 10%. (I'm re-using your numbers.)
IMM/RSA/iLO/LOM/iDRAC/etc consoles that are inherently GUI which are
invaluable when recovering systems during outages.
Don't forget that email clients /almost/ *need* to be GUI to display
more than simple text ~> attachments. -- We can't forget the venerable
Power Point slides that we need to look at before the next meeting.
I would be remiss if I didn't mention video chat, especially with work
from home that is quite common for the last ~18 months. Not to mention
conference rooms for geographically disperse team meetings.
I don't know about you, but I would have a problem justifying my
employment if I didn't participate in that 10%. And I'm quite sure that
CLI /only/ is not sufficient to do so.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die]]>2021-09-05T16:28:17-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410751&th=113225#msg_410751
Originally posted by: Michael Trew
On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>
> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>
> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>
> Jason
I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster]]>2021-09-06T02:54:18-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410791&th=113225#msg_410791
Originally posted by: John Goerzen
On 2021-09-05, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
.... that fits...
> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
So I'm going to be "that guy" that says "it depends on what you mean by
computer."
So I have a DEC vt510 that I do still use. It has a serial connection to a
Raspberry Pi, from which I can ssh wherever. I actually enjoy using it as a
"focus mode" break. It was sold as an ANSI terminal. Is it a computer? Well,
it has an 8080 in it IIRC. I do actually use it for doing work on my job from
time to time too.
I also have a Linux box, more modern, that is a Micro PC I used to do backups.
It doesn't permit ssh or such for security reasons. My only way into it is via
serial console or local console. So the vt510 can hook up to that and it is
then doing actual work too. I also have older terminals.
What about older general-purpose machines? I've seen plenty of DOS still
kicking around. Various industrial machinery still uses DOS machines as
controllers or programmers. A lot of time they are running on more modern
hardware, but also a lot of time they wouldn't NEED to be; that's just what is
out there. So that takes us back firmly into the 80s.
The DEC PDP-10 was introduced in 1966 and was famously used by CompuServe up
until at least 2007, 41 years later.
> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
The display resolution may be tricky, but an old IBM PC certainly would.
- John]]>2021-09-06T03:39:29-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410755&th=113225#msg_410755
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>
>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>
>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>
>> Jason
>
>
> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
> do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
> and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
mind wants to do these days but you can do it.
The real work in this case is running the Unix system and you already
have a computer if you do that.]]>2021-09-06T04:06:43-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410756&th=113225#msg_410756
> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
> mind wants to do these days but you can do it.
Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.]]>faux_dameron2021-09-06T06:30:46-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410761&th=113225#msg_410761
Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:06:43 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
>> mind wants to do these days but you can do it.
>
> Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.
Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet
radio) was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to run them
under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is awfully tight for
TCP/IP.
It was awesome and far from stupid.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/]]>Ahem A Rivet's Shot2021-09-06T08:14:41-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410762&th=113225#msg_410762
Originally posted by: gareth evans
On 06/09/2021 09:14, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 06:30:46 -0000 (UTC)
> Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Sep 2021 00:06:43 -0400, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their right
>>> mind wants to do these days but you can do it.
>>
>> Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.
>
> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet
> radio) was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to run them
> under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is awfully tight for
> TCP/IP.
>
> It was awesome and far from stupid.
>
One needs to be careful about terminology.
RTTY in Ham Radio terms means ITA No2, 5-unit start-stop stuff with
the awkward Figure Shift and Letter Shift keys.
Packet Radio was something else, I know not what, but certainly
8-bit character transmissions.
Gareth G4SDW]]>2021-09-06T10:55:48-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410763&th=113225#msg_410763
>>>> You can run Unix from a teletype. Not something anyone in their
>
> RTTY in Ham Radio terms means ITA No2, 5-unit start-stop stuff with the
> awkward Figure Shift and Letter Shift keys.
>
> Packet Radio was something else, I know not what, but certainly 8-bit
> character transmissions.
>
> Gareth G4SDW
When J Clarke mentioned teletype, I immediately thought of radioteletype
i.e. RTTY and that's why I mentioned it.
Jason KI4GMX]]>faux_dameron2021-09-06T11:12:24-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410764&th=113225#msg_410764
> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet
> radio) was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future)
> but it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
>
> It was awesome and far from stupid.
I meanth "stupid" only in the amount of time and effort it would take to
use an old radioteletype machine as an interface with as a linux console.
It does sound very awesome, though!]]>faux_dameron2021-09-06T11:16:37-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410771&th=113225#msg_410771
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor
On 9/6/21 12:30 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
> Linux via ham radio RTTY would be stupid and awesome, lol.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die]]>2021-09-06T17:42:28-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410772&th=113225#msg_410772
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor
On 9/6/21 2:14 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet radio)
> was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
Was it Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) or FTP proper? Or was it other non-standard
services that provided similar function to the proper services?
Many BBSs, both radio and non-radio, of the time provided similar
functionality without using /Internet/ standard protocols for doing so.
> It was awesome and far from stupid.
~chuckle~
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die]]>2021-09-06T17:44:57-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410774&th=113225#msg_410774
michael.trew@att.net> wrote:
> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>
>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>
>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>
>> Jason
>
>
> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
> do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
> and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
>
This is kind of a bizarre question. Any computer could be used for ‘real
work” today. They did their thing years ago, and could still do,the same
kinds of things today: statistics, engineering calculations, payroll,
inventory, etc. I was going to say the IBM 1130, but just realized all
could. Obviously no internet, and things like graphics and relational
databases that require gobs of memory would be out.
--
Pete]]>Peter Flass2021-09-06T17:56:09-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410781&th=113225#msg_410781
Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
> On 9/6/21 2:14 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet radio)
>> was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
>> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
>> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
>> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
>
> Was it Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) or FTP proper? Or was it other non-standard
> services that provided similar function to the proper services?
It was the real thing, there was a pretty good TCP/IP stack in there
and a multi-tasking kernel, the applications were pluggable at build time
but most settled on a variant of Elm for email backed by an SMTP server,
Tin for USENET (NNRP) and I forget where the usual ftp client originated.
When Demon Internet first started offering dial up connections with a
static IP address KA9Q was the standard offering for messy dos.
--
Steve O'Hara-Smith | Directable Mirror Arrays
C:\>WIN | A better way to focus the sun
The computer obeys and wins. | licences available see
You lose and Bill collects. | http://www.sohara.org/]]>Ahem A Rivet's Shot2021-09-06T19:07:53-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410783&th=113225#msg_410783
Originally posted by: snipeco.2
> On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 11:44:57 -0600
> Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>
>> On 9/6/21 2:14 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> Erm KA9Q was originally TCP/IP over souped up RTTY (aka packet radio)
>>> was it not. OK it was not Linux (that was still in the future) but
>>> it did come with email, usenet, ftp and a multi-tasking kernel to
>>> run them under messy dos - I never saw the CP/M version but 64K is
>>> awfully tight for TCP/IP.
>>
>> Was it Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) or FTP proper? Or was it other non-standard
>> services that provided similar function to the proper services?
>
> It was the real thing, there was a pretty good TCP/IP stack in there
> and a multi-tasking kernel, the applications were pluggable at build time
> but most settled on a variant of Elm for email backed by an SMTP server,
> Tin for USENET (NNRP) and I forget where the usual ftp client originated.
> When Demon Internet first started offering dial up connections with a
> static IP address KA9Q was the standard offering for messy dos.
It worked very well; I began by using KA9Q too, in 1994 with Demon.
My pet rock Gordon just is.]]>2021-09-06T20:05:28-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410785&th=113225#msg_410785
Originally posted by: Grant Taylor
On 9/6/21 1:07 PM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> It was the real thing, there was a pretty good TCP/IP stack in there
> and a multi-tasking kernel, the applications were pluggable at build
> time but most settled on a variant of Elm for email backed by an
> SMTP server, Tin for USENET (NNRP) and I forget where the usual ftp
> client originated. When Demon Internet first started offering dial
> up connections with a static IP address KA9Q was the standard offering
> for messy dos.
Interesting.
Thank you for confirming.
TIL :-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die]]>2021-09-06T20:54:48-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410793&th=113225#msg_410793
> Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> wrote:
>> On 9/5/2021 5:55 AM, Jason Evans wrote:
>>> I know this is an odd question, so let me explain what I'm thinking.
>>>
>>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>>>
>>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>>>
>>> These are the kinds of things that I would like to hear about on this group.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>
>>
>> I have an IBM Datamaster/System 23 in my basement that is functional
>> with its original dot matrix printer. I'd have to imagine it can still
>> do some basic functions like some kind of word processing. I have boxes
>> and boxes of 8" floppies as well.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/23_Datamaster
>>
> This is kind of a bizarre question. Any computer could be used for ‘real
> work” today. They did their thing years ago, and could still do,the same
> kinds of things today: statistics, engineering calculations, payroll,
> inventory, etc. I was going to say the IBM 1130, but just realized all
> could. Obviously no internet, and things like graphics and relational
> databases that require gobs of memory would be out.
Early computers had "gobs of memory" via endless numbers of
punch cards, endless lengths of paper tape and/or magnetic tape.
Some even had graphics. Yesterday I came across a subroutine for
DEUCE, written in 1955, that rotated the display by 90 degrees.
On that same computer was an animated version of a mouse
finding its way around a maze; also of "hickory dickory dock"
with sound effects; and noughts and crosses [tic-tac-toe].]]>Robin Vowels2021-09-07T03:27:50-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410795&th=113225#msg_410795
Originally posted by: J. Clarke
On Mon, 6 Sep 2021 03:39:29 -0000 (UTC), John Goerzen
<jgoerzen@complete.org> wrote:
> On 2021-09-05, Jason Evans <jsevans@mailfence.com> wrote:
>> First of all, what is "real work"? Let's say that you're a Linux/Unix/BSD
>> system administrator who spends 90% of his day on the command line. What is
>
> ... that fits...
>
>> the oldest computer that he could get by with to do his job?
>
> So I'm going to be "that guy" that says "it depends on what you mean by
> computer."
>
> So I have a DEC vt510 that I do still use. It has a serial connection to a
> Raspberry Pi, from which I can ssh wherever. I actually enjoy using it as a
> "focus mode" break. It was sold as an ANSI terminal. Is it a computer? Well,
> it has an 8080 in it IIRC. I do actually use it for doing work on my job from
> time to time too.
>
> I also have a Linux box, more modern, that is a Micro PC I used to do backups.
> It doesn't permit ssh or such for security reasons. My only way into it is via
> serial console or local console. So the vt510 can hook up to that and it is
> then doing actual work too. I also have older terminals.
>
> What about older general-purpose machines? I've seen plenty of DOS still
> kicking around. Various industrial machinery still uses DOS machines as
> controllers or programmers. A lot of time they are running on more modern
> hardware, but also a lot of time they wouldn't NEED to be; that's just what is
> out there. So that takes us back firmly into the 80s.
>
> The DEC PDP-10 was introduced in 1966 and was famously used by CompuServe up
> until at least 2007, 41 years later.
>
> Here's an article from 2008 about how Seattle still uses DEC VAXes (released
> 1977):
> https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/education/dinosaur -computer-stalls-seattle-schools-plans/
>
> Here's an article from just last year about how Kansas is still using a
> mainframe from 1977 to manage unemployment claims:
> https://www.kctv5.com/coronavirus/kansas-department-of-labor -mainframe-is-from-1977/article_40459370-7ac4-11ea-b4db-df52 9463a7d4.html
>
> No word on what precise type of mainframe that is.
> https://www.dol.ks.gov/documents/20121/85583/KDOL+Modernizat ion+Timeline.pdf/d186de09-851b-d996-d235-ad6fb9286fcb?versio n=1.0&t=1620335465573
> gives a clue that it may be some sort of IBM something.
> https://governor.kansas.gov/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Ginth erTaxCouncilKDOT.pdf
> hints that it may be an IBM System 370/Model 145.
I'd be very surprised if it actually was. When did IBM end
maintenance on those?
>> For example: Could you rig up a serial connection from a modern PC to a C64
>> to get a command prompt on the C64 to use as the interface for the command
>> line? Sure, it would demote the C64 to a "dumb terminal" but could it work?
>
> The display resolution may be tricky, but an old IBM PC certainly would.
>
> - John]]>2021-09-07T05:03:59-00:00Re: What is the oldest computer that could be used today for real work?
https://www.megalextoria.com/forum2/index.php?t=rview&goto=410833&th=113225#msg_410833
Originally posted by: John Goerzen
I have no more information, other than that link claims "The Kansas UI System
runs on a Mainframe that was installed in 1977."
Is it possible the hardware was upgraded to something that can emulate the
370/145, and that difference was lost on a non-technical author? Sure.
I have known other places to run mainframes an absurdly long time. I've seen it
in universities and, of course, there's the famous CompuServe PDP-10 story -
though presumably they had more technical know-how to keep their PDP-10s alive.
You are right; it does seem farfetched.